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Knicks Management is Incompetent
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ekstarks94
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7/4/2019  8:47 PM
Knicksfan wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Uptown wrote:Knicks backed out because they were told they didn't have much of a shot to land Kawhi....

I like cris carter a lot- smart, no BS, no agenda

Yeah, he seems to have no interest in following media trends and just reporting what he gets. He seems to be very connected to Perry and seems to respect what he is trying to do. Thats cool


Love CC...

He mentioned Knicks got 4 out of the 5 guys they where targeting if the Durant play went south. I wonder who was the 5th guy.

AUTOADVERT
Uptown
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7/4/2019  9:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/4/2019  9:26 PM
Knicksfan wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Uptown wrote:Knicks backed out because they were told they didn't have much of a shot to land Kawhi....

I like cris carter a lot- smart, no BS, no agenda

Yeah, he seems to have no interest in following media trends and just reporting what he gets. He seems to be very connected to Perry and seems to respect what he is trying to do. Thats cool

For a football guy, He is well connected in the NBA...some of the best hands @wise receiver of all time btw!

smackeddog
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7/5/2019  3:13 AM
ekstarks94 wrote:
Knicksfan wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
Uptown wrote:Knicks backed out because they were told they didn't have much of a shot to land Kawhi....

I like cris carter a lot- smart, no BS, no agenda

Yeah, he seems to have no interest in following media trends and just reporting what he gets. He seems to be very connected to Perry and seems to respect what he is trying to do. Thats cool


Love CC...

He mentioned Knicks got 4 out of the 5 guys they where targeting if the Durant play went south. I wonder who was the 5th guy.

I think/guess it was Terry Rozier, but the Hornets offered him a daft contract

CrushAlot
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7/5/2019  9:02 AM
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Knicksfan
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7/5/2019  9:13 AM
CrushAlot wrote:

It takes two to tango. It makes no sense that new management wouldn’t want to mend the relationship with Porzingis and his brother. Even Fiz traveled to Latvia to meet him there.

But we have seen posts about Janis where you could tell the apple was rotten before all of this. Those only putting blame on the Knicks and letting Porzingis and his brother off the hook are missing the whole picture. Janis came to the NBA with the wrong ideas and the fact Porzingis exploded into a star just empowered him into becoming what resulted in the messy breakup.

Phil and the previous Knicks played a big card. Janis and Porzingis played theirs too. Perry and Fiz tried, but to no avail.

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TheGame
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7/5/2019  9:37 AM
Knicksfan wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:

It takes two to tango. It makes no sense that new management wouldn’t want to mend the relationship with Porzingis and his brother. Even Fiz traveled to Latvia to meet him there.

But we have seen posts about Janis where you could tell the apple was rotten before all of this. Those only putting blame on the Knicks and letting Porzingis and his brother off the hook are missing the whole picture. Janis came to the NBA with the wrong ideas and the fact Porzingis exploded into a star just empowered him into becoming what resulted in the messy breakup.

Phil and the previous Knicks played a big card. Janis and Porzingis played theirs too. Perry and Fiz tried, but to no avail.

We showed KP love. KP was too busy worrying about KP and not focused on the team. It pains me to think what a KP-Mitchell frontcourt could have done, but I would rather ride with guys who want to be here. KP didn't and I read a report yesterday saying that he and his brother threatened that KP would return to Lat if the Knicks did not trade him at the deadline. That is some balls for a guy in his third year. Even AD did not make those kind of threats. Dude had to go.

Trust the Process
MS
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7/5/2019  9:39 AM
Look this team holds the worst record in the league over the past 15 seasons.

You’ve got an overweight grumpy owner that you’ve seen ban the daily news from a press conference, ban fans for telling him to sell the team, throw Oakley out of the garden, get into it with out fans and them call them out as alcoholics in the papers, support Isaiah Thomas in the midst of a huge scandal and the worse stretch in the franchises history. The guy is literally an unstable terror to the employees in the garden. Not to mention he’s slumped over and a mess sitting courtside. Doesn’t scream stability when you been through a dozen coaches and 5 gms.

You can’t ever give this franchise the benefit of the doubt.

Chandler
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7/5/2019  9:57 AM
CrushAlot wrote:

yikes

this is what I meant (without this specific evidence) of Phil having a dysfunctional franchise. He certainly contributed to the fractured relationship

I recall when RIley took over as coach, and he cleaned house, had all sorts of new structure put in place, specific strength coaches etc

Not having the uniform of gym ready for a guy (let alone star) who wants to put time is is up there with the Clippers under Sterling

hopefully that has all been rectified

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Chandler
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7/5/2019  10:01 AM
MS wrote:Look this team holds the worst record in the league over the past 15 seasons.

You’ve got an overweight grumpy owner that you’ve seen ban the daily news from a press conference, ban fans for telling him to sell the team, throw Oakley out of the garden, get into it with out fans and them call them out as alcoholics in the papers, support Isaiah Thomas in the midst of a huge scandal and the worse stretch in the franchises history. The guy is literally an unstable terror to the employees in the garden. Not to mention he’s slumped over and a mess sitting courtside. Doesn’t scream stability when you been through a dozen coaches and 5 gms.

You can’t ever give this franchise the benefit of the doubt.

I hope the fans regularly chant that he should sell the team. I saw some articles where he was expressing irritation about thta

A new owner won't by itself fix things; but you're right, he's such an unstable mess

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BigDaddyG
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7/5/2019  10:06 AM
MS wrote:Look this team holds the worst record in the league over the past 15 seasons.

You’ve got an overweight grumpy owner that you’ve seen ban the daily news from a press conference, ban fans for telling him to sell the team, throw Oakley out of the garden, get into it with out fans and them call them out as alcoholics in the papers, support Isaiah Thomas in the midst of a huge scandal and the worse stretch in the franchises history. The guy is literally an unstable terror to the employees in the garden. Not to mention he’s slumped over and a mess sitting courtside. Doesn’t scream stability when you been through a dozen coaches and 5 gms.

You can’t ever give this franchise the benefit of the doubt.

He's been relatively hands off with player decisions the past few years. I won't say Perry has been the best, but he's been steady. We have deserved media scrutiny in the past, but some of it seems extreme. No one wants to play for us? We've seen top free agents tell Boston to don't even bother calling. People like to say we traded KP simply for cap space, but we've been investigating a move even before the KD rumors. There is obviously more to the story, but these talking heads have gone out of their way to ignore it. We get killed for giving guys like Payton 8 million per on a flexible 1+1 deals, while everyone conveniently forgets the Hornets are giving Terry Rozier $20m/3 years.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Chandler
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7/5/2019  10:09 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/5/2019  10:10 AM
Knicksfan wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:

It takes two to tango. It makes no sense that new management wouldn’t want to mend the relationship with Porzingis and his brother. Even Fiz traveled to Latvia to meet him there.

But we have seen posts about Janis where you could tell the apple was rotten before all of this. Those only putting blame on the Knicks and letting Porzingis and his brother off the hook are missing the whole picture. Janis came to the NBA with the wrong ideas and the fact Porzingis exploded into a star just empowered him into becoming what resulted in the messy breakup.

Phil and the previous Knicks played a big card. Janis and Porzingis played theirs too. Perry and Fiz tried, but to no avail.

Honestly, I have seen very little in the way of putting the blame entirely on the Knicks. Most if not all include at least Jancis and more recently KP too. IMO all rightly deserved criticism

WHat I have seen very little of is anyone mentioning that the current regime deserves blame too, i.e., Phil started it but the current regime finished it. I am 100% positive they wanted to mend it; they just screwed up. For that matter, unlike the Melo, situation I'm sure Phil wanted to mend it too, and he screwed up too

It started with Fizzdale's dumb comments, either not knowing his star player's health status, or making his injury sound worse than it was (touchy subject because of contract implications). I also think the teams complete free fall without any sense of what they were trying to accomplish on the court contributed immensely. I saw one article (unnamed sources) that that same free fall weighed on KD as well (and for the record I'm glad we passed on him post-injury and was skeptical pre-injury because of his age)

I don't like Stephen A Smith but his rumor too makes sense. He said KP wanted to talk to Dolan and when rejected that's when he demanded a trade. That speaks to huge levels of insecurity and dysfunction all around. If true, why didn't FO allow that meeting == were they so insecure that Dolan would side with their star player and not the FO? Was Dolan so clueless and inept (yes) that before the proposed trade was official he didn't want to know for himself what's up, hearing directly from Team Latvia

Sorry to be in such a dark mood, but even if RJ is the second coming of MJ or Pippen this organization will find a way to screw it up

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fishmike
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7/5/2019  10:11 AM
Solace wrote:This team is still going to suck this year. I bet the pathetic Shanvis Eisleyspoon Knicks eould wipe the floor with these guys. And you notice we go all 2 year contracts? Why so we can pretend like we're making a play at Giannis then fail to get him too because we don't meet with him, so we can give a contract to some other scrubs? You either take the meeting or don't bother with cap room. That's it. We sabotaged our chances with Durant and Kyrie and then sabotages Kawhi. Just 100% pure garbage organization.
Eisleyspoon were veteran pros. Those guys were in the primes of their career and established NBA players. This roster is nothing like that. The only veterans are on 1 year deals. The guy they hope is a starter in Randle got a 2+1 year deal for good money but puts the Knicks in max flexibility.

Bottom line is this. Entering the offseason and FA period they had two choices.
1) Wait for Kawhi, pass on guys you can sign and risk a total whiff in FA after having $70mm in cap space
2) Start building the team up, surround your young prospects with a couple vets who play right on low commitment deals and add some other young guys with upside you hope you can get to the next level and possibly become a core of your future rotation (Payton/Portis/Randle)

Choosing option #2 is not incompetent. Hate it? Fine. Disappointing? 100% What they did was very prudent and boring but also solid in may areas.

You are not "stuck" in NBA mediocrity when your roster age is like 23 years old on average. We have teenagers.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Chandler
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7/5/2019  10:15 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
MS wrote:Look this team holds the worst record in the league over the past 15 seasons.

You’ve got an overweight grumpy owner that you’ve seen ban the daily news from a press conference, ban fans for telling him to sell the team, throw Oakley out of the garden, get into it with out fans and them call them out as alcoholics in the papers, support Isaiah Thomas in the midst of a huge scandal and the worse stretch in the franchises history. The guy is literally an unstable terror to the employees in the garden. Not to mention he’s slumped over and a mess sitting courtside. Doesn’t scream stability when you been through a dozen coaches and 5 gms.

You can’t ever give this franchise the benefit of the doubt.

He's been relatively hands off with player decisions the past few years. I won't say Perry has been the best, but he's been steady. We have deserved media scrutiny in the past, but some of it seems extreme. No one wants to play for us? We've seen top free agents tell Boston to don't even bother calling. People like to say we traded KP simply for cap space, but we've been investigating a move even before the KD rumors. There is obviously more to the story, but these talking heads have gone out of their way to ignore it. We get killed for giving guys like Payton 8 million per on a flexible 1+1 deals, while everyone conveniently forgets the Hornets are giving Terry Rozier $20m/3 years.

Agreed. We deserve scrutiny, but the media has been totally unfairly harsh. And I think it has repercussions. I do think it affects FA thinking. I do think the negativity can weigh on the players themselves. I also think that referees go into games thinking that the KNicks suck and a questionable call against them has less effect than the opponent (no benefit of the doubt)

Personally, I kind of liked that they stiffed Bondy, but the fact that we have Dolan as an owner and our recent history made that take a (more negative) life of its own. Might have been better to just reprimand him in some way during one of the press meetings by calling out shoddy facts

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Chandler
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7/5/2019  10:30 AM
fishmike wrote:
Solace wrote:This team is still going to suck this year. I bet the pathetic Shanvis Eisleyspoon Knicks eould wipe the floor with these guys. And you notice we go all 2 year contracts? Why so we can pretend like we're making a play at Giannis then fail to get him too because we don't meet with him, so we can give a contract to some other scrubs? You either take the meeting or don't bother with cap room. That's it. We sabotaged our chances with Durant and Kyrie and then sabotages Kawhi. Just 100% pure garbage organization.
Eisleyspoon were veteran pros. Those guys were in the primes of their career and established NBA players. This roster is nothing like that. The only veterans are on 1 year deals. The guy they hope is a starter in Randle got a 2+1 year deal for good money but puts the Knicks in max flexibility.

Bottom line is this. Entering the offseason and FA period they had two choices.
1) Wait for Kawhi, pass on guys you can sign and risk a total whiff in FA after having $70mm in cap space
2) Start building the team up, surround your young prospects with a couple vets who play right on low commitment deals and add some other young guys with upside you hope you can get to the next level and possibly become a core of your future rotation (Payton/Portis/Randle)

Choosing option #2 is not incompetent. Hate it? Fine. Disappointing? 100% What they did was very prudent and boring but also solid in may areas.

You are not "stuck" in NBA mediocrity when your roster age is like 23 years old on average. We have teenagers.

Fish c'mon man. It's 1 all the way. Even if Kawhi ultimately said no, you'd set the table for his next FA which may be only one or two years out (e.g., if he signs 2 with (aging) Toronto you know 2d year is his option). If nothing else you read the guy to see if he really wants to be Knick (if not now, next year or the year after).

Do you think we'd be that much worse off getting some other cast of vets if option 1 failed.

The huge inconsistency here is that the Knicks thought an all out free fall this year was somehow smart even with the new lottery system. Now this year, it's important to surround our young core (which thoroughly did not impress even NOLA) with vets so we can draft 10-14. The only thing I can say positive about option 2 is the deals are short term (but that itself may run the risk of selfish play just as we experienced with out bust re-treads)

I would have preferred an option 3 where we admit we suck, absorb bad contracts and get more picks as compensation.

Now it could be the case that the FO totally knew Leonard had no interest and Kawhi just wanted the meeting to show the fan base some quasi love (at least not disrespect) because of his business interest/brand, which would be smart on Kawhi's part. In this case they should have met with him on 7/3 and express your love for him

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StarksEwing1
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7/5/2019  10:47 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/5/2019  10:47 AM
Chandler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
MS wrote:Look this team holds the worst record in the league over the past 15 seasons.

You’ve got an overweight grumpy owner that you’ve seen ban the daily news from a press conference, ban fans for telling him to sell the team, throw Oakley out of the garden, get into it with out fans and them call them out as alcoholics in the papers, support Isaiah Thomas in the midst of a huge scandal and the worse stretch in the franchises history. The guy is literally an unstable terror to the employees in the garden. Not to mention he’s slumped over and a mess sitting courtside. Doesn’t scream stability when you been through a dozen coaches and 5 gms.

You can’t ever give this franchise the benefit of the doubt.

He's been relatively hands off with player decisions the past few years. I won't say Perry has been the best, but he's been steady. We have deserved media scrutiny in the past, but some of it seems extreme. No one wants to play for us? We've seen top free agents tell Boston to don't even bother calling. People like to say we traded KP simply for cap space, but we've been investigating a move even before the KD rumors. There is obviously more to the story, but these talking heads have gone out of their way to ignore it. We get killed for giving guys like Payton 8 million per on a flexible 1+1 deals, while everyone conveniently forgets the Hornets are giving Terry Rozier $20m/3 years.

Agreed. We deserve scrutiny, but the media has been totally unfairly harsh. And I think it has repercussions. I do think it affects FA thinking. I do think the negativity can weigh on the players themselves. I also think that referees go into games thinking that the KNicks suck and a questionable call against them has less effect than the opponent (no benefit of the doubt)

Personally, I kind of liked that they stiffed Bondy, but the fact that we have Dolan as an owner and our recent history made that take a (more negative) life of its own. Might have been better to just reprimand him in some way during one of the press meetings by calling out shoddy facts

I agree with you about the media. Look I just want objective reporting. I don't want them kissing our ass or bashing for for the fun of it/selling. The media always tries to stir up controversy with us and I do think players and even some of our fanbase fall for it. Look im not saying you shouldn't be disappointed that we didn't get a big FA, I understand frustration. However in years past we would make a panic move that would really hurt us. At least now we do have a plan and we are sticking with it. Ive been a big supporter of building through the draft and youth for over a decade. That doesn't mean I don't want to get a big FA but im glad we didn't take a risk with KD or sell our whole future for davis. We at least have flexibility to make another pitch in 2021 as well as continuing to build up our kids and retain our assets.
fishmike
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7/5/2019  10:57 AM
Chandler wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Solace wrote:This team is still going to suck this year. I bet the pathetic Shanvis Eisleyspoon Knicks eould wipe the floor with these guys. And you notice we go all 2 year contracts? Why so we can pretend like we're making a play at Giannis then fail to get him too because we don't meet with him, so we can give a contract to some other scrubs? You either take the meeting or don't bother with cap room. That's it. We sabotaged our chances with Durant and Kyrie and then sabotages Kawhi. Just 100% pure garbage organization.
Eisleyspoon were veteran pros. Those guys were in the primes of their career and established NBA players. This roster is nothing like that. The only veterans are on 1 year deals. The guy they hope is a starter in Randle got a 2+1 year deal for good money but puts the Knicks in max flexibility.

Bottom line is this. Entering the offseason and FA period they had two choices.
1) Wait for Kawhi, pass on guys you can sign and risk a total whiff in FA after having $70mm in cap space
2) Start building the team up, surround your young prospects with a couple vets who play right on low commitment deals and add some other young guys with upside you hope you can get to the next level and possibly become a core of your future rotation (Payton/Portis/Randle)

Choosing option #2 is not incompetent. Hate it? Fine. Disappointing? 100% What they did was very prudent and boring but also solid in may areas.

You are not "stuck" in NBA mediocrity when your roster age is like 23 years old on average. We have teenagers.

Fish c'mon man. It's 1 all the way. Even if Kawhi ultimately said no, you'd set the table for his next FA which may be only one or two years out (e.g., if he signs 2 with (aging) Toronto you know 2d year is his option). If nothing else you read the guy to see if he really wants to be Knick (if not now, next year or the year after).

Do you think we'd be that much worse off getting some other cast of vets if option 1 failed.

The huge inconsistency here is that the Knicks thought an all out free fall this year was somehow smart even with the new lottery system. Now this year, it's important to surround our young core (which thoroughly did not impress even NOLA) with vets so we can draft 10-14. The only thing I can say positive about option 2 is the deals are short term (but that itself may run the risk of selfish play just as we experienced with out bust re-treads)

I would have preferred an option 3 where we admit we suck, absorb bad contracts and get more picks as compensation.

Now it could be the case that the FO totally knew Leonard had no interest and Kawhi just wanted the meeting to show the fan base some quasi love (at least not disrespect) because of his business interest/brand, which would be smart on Kawhi's part. In this case they should have met with him on 7/3 and express your love for him

MAybe! Time will tell. I think they had zero realistic chance of Kawhi. He's a SoCal guy. It just makes zero sense. Lebron and his brand and NYC.. you figured there was a chance. Well see. I like the position we are in despite the setbacks (KP trade)
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
smackeddog
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7/5/2019  11:07 AM
CrushAlot wrote:

On a side note, does anyone still believe KP's comment when he signed, about the thing he was most excited abut was getting a 24hr gym card so he could work out in the middle of the night. Utter BS! Why would anyone work out in the middle of the night- how does it make any sense?! I don't want players working out at 2am! I bought it at the time, but now I think it was just a PR line that he knew would go down well.

Whatever KP's work ethic was the first year, he had lost it by the second or 3rd. Our culture at the time brought out the worst in him, but by the time Perry got here the damage was done.

GustavBahler
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7/5/2019  11:31 AM
CrushAlot wrote:

Didnt say that these problems continued after Perry arrived. As Knicksfan pointed out, Fizdale went the extra mile to get on the same page as KP. Wasnt for lack of trying by mgmt. Knowing that mgmt was making a genuine effort to get on the same page with Porzingis. Should have been enough to focus on his rehab, and leave the contract talk until he was healthy. Not the path he choose.

Thought KP was in the right throughout the Phil years. Perry was not a company man, someone promoted within the organization. Perry was an outsider. Considering that Porzingis was doing absolutely nothing on the court to help the team, KP should have shown some leadership and not made a stink about his next contract while rehabbing from a serious injury.

If Perry and Fizdale never had a shot of placating him, KP should have played out his contract and walked. Threatening to break his contract was not leadership. Good riddance.

Nalod
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7/5/2019  11:36 AM
If stability is an issue. suggesting the current group be fired won't help if there is no cause other than frustration over being starphuched.
You only get starphuched if you let them.
Chandler
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7/5/2019  12:23 PM
Nalod wrote:If stability is an issue. suggesting the current group be fired won't help if there is no cause other than frustration over being starphuched.
You only get starphuched if you let them.

Nalod, that aphorism has a nice romantic ring to it, but we would still have Isiah or Phil at the healm with that logic

at the end of the day you want a FO (and owner if he or she is involved) with good judgment. GS fired a coach who won 50+ games and profited from that immediately; SO too did Toronto (Casey coming off coach of the year)

Personally I think Dolan wants to win; it's just he can't help himself from being a ding dong

I have no faith in Mills, and the most tepid hope in Perry at this point

BTW has anyone looked at his Wikipedia page (reeks of insecurity IMO)

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Knicks Management is Incompetent

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