SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:

martin wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:
I don't completely agree but I do not disagree with the overall point. This offseason was a massive wet fart. I think we could've definitely added a couple of players that would be impact players, maybe not Kyrie and KD, but guys that you would expect to be the best player on the court at least a handful of times next season. I think we could've added long-term pieces by 'absorbing' guys like Andre Iguodola--who I would MUCH rather have than Bullock and Ellington

Who? Name them and at what price

Also, Iggy wants to be bought out. So you are paying for a first round pick in 2024 for like $17M? And then don't have 3pt shooting wings?

The assumption is Iggy would play here. He said no okay then move on. But I dunno, maybe he'd enjoy mentoring RJ.

To the main point: I would have prioritized pairing Randle with DRuss. We have some extra assets and he was an All Star last year and nearby. From what I read DRuss was able to influence his landing spot and GSW wanted him to trade him later. So my assumption is he was absolutely attainable and I think that duo would be enticing enough to get someone else to join. JJ Reddick seemed to move for peanuts. Maybe he really wanted to be in NOLA but he seemed gettable and we have no one that can shoot. Also, I know that this is all speculative but you are asking me to speculate

I am absolutely asking you to speculate. You named DRuss and JJ. No contract prices though. JJ got a 2 year deal and DRuss the max (puke).

You think JJ is an impact player? He just turned 35

Why do I need to make contract values up when the market just proved itself? Why do you want me to pull numbers or of my ass? How about what they signed for plus a dollar?

So your list of impact players is a 2 year contract for a 35 year old and to max out a guy who doesn’t play D?

That’s exactly what the Knicks used to do

GustavBahler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Chandler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

90sKnicks wrote:

If you feel you “Lost” Zion then revisit math.
If you feel we lost Kyrie then be greatful.
If we lost Durant, he was lost when he tore his heel.
Small consolation was were in his top 4. End of the day you really want a max contract with a guy sitting a year, then hopefully at 85% at the end of year two at age 33?
While I like to win, I just don’t think was “lost” here.

Well said! I've been sick as a Knicks fan for many years this century, but not today. Anyone who doesn't understand that we are undergoing our first true rebuild (the right way) is probably the reason the Knicks management often panics and signs big names to appease them.

If Durant hadn't torn his Achilles then today would have been entirely different as far as expectations of signing him and as far as real disappointment if he didn't sign.

I would have preferred 2 years for 48 million on the Randle signing instead of 3 for 63. That's the only thing that i'm disappointed with today.

If thats the case then why are we not taking on salary dumps and adding draft picks?
Why are we not keeping imexpensive vets ($1m LT) instead of signing expensive vets in Gibson. Your telling me Taj is 10 times better than LT? Why are we not signing inexpensive young players? (Vonleh $5M) You will see Randle is not 4 times better than him. Bullock for $10M? Come on...

Fact is, we ****ed up deals that were teed up. Okay, lets say that's fine. Durant will go from best player on earth to a bumbling gimp. So why hand out all this salary to guys that essentially dont make us better than last year and will not be part of any future chip team. Bit that wpuld be fine if we were taking on draft picks to overpay these rentals. That is, unless you think that anyone we picked up will be part of any chip team? If so,,you haven't seen those guys play. But enjoy finding out during the regular season.
Knicks whiffed, yet again in FA. Their back up plan should have been deals like GS offered for Iggy. Or keep the same team as last year and get another top 3 pick. Instead they knee jerked to save face and signed a bunch of over paid bums with the space cleared dumping KP because they **** that relationship out of NY.

But I guess guys will,keep spinning to get by. Maybe an intervention will help.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Hofstra.

He's right; if this was supposed to be about the future it could have and should have been played a lot better by snagging assets

this smacks of desperation of a FO and CS being spurned (their best trait was supposedly to make the team an attractive destination). they want to add some wins to keep their jobs

nothing against the players; they're all nice but expensive for what you're getting and totally inconsistent with last week's "process"

Dang...what are the low lifes of the world going to do now that hell has frozen over.

Over reaction MAY have been had once we missed out on 2 max players. My bad, should have known better to expect so much.

Biggest gripe is how some fans are so caught up in losing that hey don't realize how the lines keep getting moved. They ignore the excuses made in the past for the many Knick set backs.

1) KP got traded. Hater excuse...He was a diva. He was too skinny. He will never play again. All bull****. Think it will be proven that he was playing at a ridiculous level before injury and will be at same level next year. And I choose to believe a kid that has had zero history of being a manipulative liar. Unlike our heralded front office (Mills) The FO excuse...we cleared cap space so that we can go after the top FA's in 2019. Now that they failed and essentially failed in KP trade, everyone ignores the excuses and still claim who care, KP was a diva. First step...DENIAL!

2) The Knicks swore they would not have a knee jerk reaction if they missed on KD, KI, Kawhi. Okay fine, we miss on all top FA and therefore all the cap clearing, KP trade was for not. No problem. What was the back up plan? Wait a few days to see how things clear out and look for desperation moves to take advantage of. (GS and Iggy) Sign some cheap deals for role players/second chancers and allow the young core to play another season and gain experience? Gather more assets/draft picks by taking on one year deals from teams that need to clear cap space? Nah, lets fill the roster within a day of guys that will take time away from young core. Over pay for mediocre assets that will fill the floor but will probably have no future past 2020. Fans.. great move by the FO, Portis is awesome. Knicks needed to make this a winning team for young core development. Have they seen the guys paly that we added? Some even pushing the Randle can be an All Star idea. Have they seen him play? Smart move to overpay Taj for Vet presence. Have they seen him play? At least we have GIANNIS in 2021. FO...sorry fans. Next day..okay guys, we are now waiting for 2021 and we think we put together a solid team. But we will probably have 2 more years of a mediocre, bad team and are focused on 2021. Mills=Ivy league genius.

Anyway, it is what it is. Hate that fans are so use to being fooled by Mills and Dolan. Tired of the excuses. Essentially Mills keeps padding his Knick life span by fooling everyone. However, I am Still a Knick fan. Always will be. And NO, I will not root for the NETS. For the idiots that think I am trolling and hating on the GREAT moves..F them. I am one of the many guys who have been putting up with this **** for a long time and put my money where my mouth is buying season tickets.

Looking forward to seeing (hopefully a lot) of Smith, Barret, Knox, Frank, Mitch, Dotson, Trier, Bradseikis develop and continue to develop. Yes I will root for Randle, Portis to work out and change their careers around. Liked Bullock, minus the salary and outside shooting. Like Payton minus the haircut and outside shooting. Like Ellingtons motor and age, minus the salary. Curious about Wilkes.

You haven't played since last season. You havent been able to play a full season without running out of gas halfway througb. Yet you are backseat driving mgmt, while you are on the bench in street clothes and contributing nothing. You're damned skippy KP was a Diva. He tried to make a power play, and got his arse traded post haste.

What KP was doing had zero to do with leadership, and everything to do with his own narrow interests. "Dont let the door...."

Maybe., here is the problem....
1. This is mostly based on speculation.
2. We were not there to confirm or deny what some claim to be so.
3. Some are choosing to believe the guy that has been at the helm of the cluster Fuck we call the Knicks for a long time.

Like I said, I choose to believe the kid that has no history of being a pathological liar and not the FO who has ****ed up every relationship and made this franchise a laughing stock. I may also be in the minority that feels a FO should grow a pair and not get their panties in a wad when their franchise player doesnt like the way things are going. Specially when he is right. Maybe some the fan base should do the same. Last I checked, were not still in the 70s when players were considered average stock.

Thing I keep saying is that its not coincidence that KP, just about every player that's left the Knicks, agents, and other FO's think Mills, the Knicks and Dolan are a joke. Yet some get upset when yet another player sees it, has enough of it and moves on. I get upset that many cant see the real problem and keep excusing it.

In terms of those who claim KP cant last a whole season and was not very good....lets see how that works out. I'll bet they are wrong.

elmaestro33 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

elmaestro33 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:One thing that I would like to add is that draft picks are more valuable now then they ever have been. The new lottery system makes it so that even if the picks are supposed to be in the 4-7 range they could become #1-2. That's is crazy.

In the years past there were benefits and minuses to tanking and we were all discussing it here over the last year. The benefits are obvious but the minuses were such as losing culture, refs not giving players the benefit of the doubt and free agents not seeing the bigger picture( free agents from other teams as well as our own) Best example of this was KP not wanting to be the David Robinson in the TD draft when we had Zion in our draft.(I know , Spurs and Knicks are different franchises, but still)

The benefits of trying to field a competitive team while amassing assets and keeping flexibility have been discussed as well, with Celtics prior to the big three and now the Nets as recent examples. So why all the complaining? We are that team finally. Flexibility? Check. We did not sign any B grade FA to max contracts, as a matter of fact we signed them to relatively movable contracts except maybe Taj. Actually we only signed them all to one year contracts technically since the second years are all team options. Let that sink in for a sec. Randle is the only one on a two year contract, 3rd being a team option. That's what flexibility looks like. I have never seen it in 20 years as a fan. Potentially those contracts can become assets( more picks) at the trade deadline. Just saying.

Maybe it's time to stop regurgitating the old stuff such as losing KP for nothing?

Couldn't agree more regarding draft picks and flexibility.

KP, on the other hand, is as relevant as ever. A huge part of that trade was to create cap space/flexibility for two max deals this summer and we, as fans, were told to hold off judgement until free agency. I'm not saying it was the front office's fault for striking out (Durant injury) but they still took that gamble and it did NOT pay off. Now we're looking at FA again in two years when Hardaway, Lee, and Noah would have been off the books anyways. We can hope to suck again and build through the draft and maybe get lucky enough to find another KP. Point is that the KP trade was a massive failure and we essentially gave him up for pennies on the dollar and the tie to complain and judge the FO is now!

I didn't want to do this and this does deserve a separate thread in itself but the threads are there and those with premium subscription accounts can use the search button to find them. That or google.

Anyway the KP trade. I will try not to insult Janis, not gonna talk about KP the player nor KP the person. I'll just say the sad truth. First off let's make it very clear that we could not keep him no matter what we did. No Way. Why is that you might ask? Well it's because it has been well documented that his camp threatened to sign only a one year qualifying offer and to become an UNRESTRICTED free agent. That was the blackmail attempt. It has only been done few times in the NBA history. Our front office was looking at losing him for absolutely zero assets. Quite a power card don't you think? Can you imagine what would happen in New York if we lost him for nothing? It would have been the absolute worst Knicks nightmare imaginable.

So what happened next? We all know the story. We got value in return. How much value ? It might seem like no one knows until KP comes back. If KP comes back healthy and returns to previous levels of play then ITS THE SAME VALUE AS IF HE NEVER PLAYS A GAME IN THE NBA AGAIN. Why? Because when he threatened to leave in FA we would have gotten nothing. What we got was the best deal available. How am I so sure? Because when you sell a car you sell it to the best bidder. Simple as that. So it's not that we got Randle and company for KP. We got Randle and company plus DSJ plus picks instead of getting nothing. Zip. Zero.

When it came time to make that trade, it may have been the correct move. There are a whole load of events that led up to us being in that position with KP, it's just very unfortunate that Mills couldn't recover from the damage Phil had already done. It's unfair to look at the trade in the vacuum, sure, but the FO is at fault for all of the events leading up to the trade and the trade itself.

Let's not forget that it takes two to tango. The missed exit meeting was largely ignored by most and you cannot put the blame only on Phil.

Anyway that's the previous regime and we are talking about our current FO over here.

ramtour420 wrote:

elmaestro33 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

elmaestro33 wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:One thing that I would like to add is that draft picks are more valuable now then they ever have been. The new lottery system makes it so that even if the picks are supposed to be in the 4-7 range they could become #1-2. That's is crazy.

In the years past there were benefits and minuses to tanking and we were all discussing it here over the last year. The benefits are obvious but the minuses were such as losing culture, refs not giving players the benefit of the doubt and free agents not seeing the bigger picture( free agents from other teams as well as our own) Best example of this was KP not wanting to be the David Robinson in the TD draft when we had Zion in our draft.(I know , Spurs and Knicks are different franchises, but still)

The benefits of trying to field a competitive team while amassing assets and keeping flexibility have been discussed as well, with Celtics prior to the big three and now the Nets as recent examples. So why all the complaining? We are that team finally. Flexibility? Check. We did not sign any B grade FA to max contracts, as a matter of fact we signed them to relatively movable contracts except maybe Taj. Actually we only signed them all to one year contracts technically since the second years are all team options. Let that sink in for a sec. Randle is the only one on a two year contract, 3rd being a team option. That's what flexibility looks like. I have never seen it in 20 years as a fan. Potentially those contracts can become assets( more picks) at the trade deadline. Just saying.

Maybe it's time to stop regurgitating the old stuff such as losing KP for nothing?

Couldn't agree more regarding draft picks and flexibility.

KP, on the other hand, is as relevant as ever. A huge part of that trade was to create cap space/flexibility for two max deals this summer and we, as fans, were told to hold off judgement until free agency. I'm not saying it was the front office's fault for striking out (Durant injury) but they still took that gamble and it did NOT pay off. Now we're looking at FA again in two years when Hardaway, Lee, and Noah would have been off the books anyways. We can hope to suck again and build through the draft and maybe get lucky enough to find another KP. Point is that the KP trade was a massive failure and we essentially gave him up for pennies on the dollar and the tie to complain and judge the FO is now!

I didn't want to do this and this does deserve a separate thread in itself but the threads are there and those with premium subscription accounts can use the search button to find them. That or google.

Anyway the KP trade. I will try not to insult Janis, not gonna talk about KP the player nor KP the person. I'll just say the sad truth. First off let's make it very clear that we could not keep him no matter what we did. No Way. Why is that you might ask? Well it's because it has been well documented that his camp threatened to sign only a one year qualifying offer and to become an UNRESTRICTED free agent. That was the blackmail attempt. It has only been done few times in the NBA history. Our front office was looking at losing him for absolutely zero assets. Quite a power card don't you think? Can you imagine what would happen in New York if we lost him for nothing? It would have been the absolute worst Knicks nightmare imaginable.

So what happened next? We all know the story. We got value in return. How much value ? It might seem like no one knows until KP comes back. If KP comes back healthy and returns to previous levels of play then ITS THE SAME VALUE AS IF HE NEVER PLAYS A GAME IN THE NBA AGAIN. Why? Because when he threatened to leave in FA we would have gotten nothing. What we got was the best deal available. How am I so sure? Because when you sell a car you sell it to the best bidder. Simple as that. So it's not that we got Randle and company for KP. We got Randle and company plus DSJ plus picks instead of getting nothing. Zip. Zero.

When it came time to make that trade, it may have been the correct move. There are a whole load of events that led up to us being in that position with KP, it's just very unfortunate that Mills couldn't recover from the damage Phil had already done. It's unfair to look at the trade in the vacuum, sure, but the FO is at fault for all of the events leading up to the trade and the trade itself.

Let's not forget that it takes two to tango. The missed exit meeting was largely ignored by most and you cannot put the blame only on Phil.

Anyway that's the previous regime and we are talking about our current FO over here.

They had plenty of time to fix that relationship. They didn't inherit the best situation but still could have mended it.

Knicksfan wrote:Omg can we just move on from the speculation on Porzingis?!

For all that has been said, the unavoidable truths are:

1. He had a rocky relationship with management shown by skipping the exit meeting. This did happen.

2. He had a terrible injury that no player his size has recovered from so his return and level of play after that was and still is TO BE DETERMINED. Whether he comes back great, mediocre or bad, nobody knows so stop talking about him like we traded a pristine perfect Porzingis.

3. The brother was an issue. Many reports on this. There is speculation on the impact, but the fact that he was an issue was clear on his own interviews so that did happen.

4. Porzingis wanted out. How do we know? Because he is gone. Why did he ask to be traded, when and how remains speculation, but the guy wanted out and got his wish.

Knicks FO isn’t free of blame because this relationship seems to have soured up from both parts, but the fact some here keep talking about KP like this innocent child that was abused into wanting out of the place he loved is a biased argument. For this thing to mess up the way it did, both parties were to blame, both had their reasons to move on and that’s why they all moved on.

Why don’t fans move on too?

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/tommybeer/status/1146233412992286723

knicks1248 wrote:Everyones wants to praise this FO for not signing any long term contracts.

But some don't realise the fact that this franchise under Phil and mills has become a complete revolving door. Next yr will have 7 or 8 new players (if we fail to make the playoffs)

The longest tenured knick is Now Frank (2 yrs) the worst player on the roster.

All these deals have Perry's fingerprint on it. Phil is gone, different regime. Stop trying to tie Perry to the past.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

90sKnicks wrote:As we are mere hours away from the start of free agency, i wanted to express to you viewpoints of the vast majority of your fans.

1) We are okay with a rebuild. We want to see improvement, but don't have unrealistic expectations and are not impatient if this takes several years to build a team that can compete to reach the NBA finals. We realize that we are only two years into the rebuilding process (which started once Melo was traded), and understand that most (successful) rebuilds take 4-5 years. We're willing to wait as long as we keep trending in the correct direction and not moving backward.

2) Do not trade draft picks. Ever. Draft picks are the building blocks to any successful long-term rebuild. Hire good scouts, trust your scouts, and rely on them to identify and draft players that fit the identity of the team that you are trying to establish.

3) With the exception of Kawhi (and possibly possibly Durant) no player in this free agent class is worth more than a 2-year deal. 3-year, 4-year, and 5-year deals are what cripple rebuilds.

4) Don't spend just to spend. This a deep free agent class but lacks true franchise players other than Kawhi (and Durant if healthy). This will result in many teams overspending on good but not great players and market price for these players will keep inflating. Don't be one of these teams.

5) Our team is young so be mindful of who we want to expose them to. Bad influences in terms of attitude and work ethic would be very detrimental if serving as role models to our young players...even if the players are talented

1. Which rebuild are you referring to? The one that star6ed in 2002? Uncle Phil's five years ago? Or the current 2 year one that Mills is asking us to buy in to so he can keep his job for another 5 years without anyone expecting anything from him?

Losing is an infection. Think the old timers on here are fatal cases. They prefer to root for the long shot draft pick because they play decent D. They are accustomed to looking forwatd to a high draft pick as their only higlight of the basketball year. And once we get a franchise player, lets trade him for scraps because the great FO could not maintain a solid relationship with them. Heck, most fans infected even thought it was okay to run a dinasour offensive system from the 90's thinking thats the future of basketball. Its a sickness.

Lost cases. I'm tired of the losing. Inability to attract good players. This franchise is dog **** if we cant stop settling for rooting for Frank amd Baker to kill it. We have some of the best players on the planet available and we get who? Oh wait yeah, KD Kyrie and everyone else is just not good enough for this successful group of elite players we have.

Losing is a sickness. When is everyone going to realize they all have it.

Hope that Kawhi bails us out. But why would he want to get such a nasty disease.

Fyi. Feel good about this year....

Did fans really expect the league to change their opinion of Knicks mgmt overnight? Knicks rep has been caca for close to 20 years, going to take time to rebuild it. Believe Perry/Mills are going about it the right way

My point is that we lost....again. And even,worse, we loat to the Nets. Say what you want about the possibly,maybe, hopefully, fact is we lost and have lost for way too many years. Sick of it. The losing will stop when everyone stops accepting it and does something about it. Losing KP set that "right way" back by 3 years. Hard to be optimistic with this organazation. Your saying that we need more time to change. Problem is we still have the same guys running this. Things have not changed. How long did it take the Nets to change perception?

We have a top 3 pick, cap room, strong draft since Perry got here. No bad deals given out. I would say things are changing. Maxing out Cousins, that would be more of the same. Believe the rest of the league like the new attitude, but they want to see more. As long as the yoots are developing next season, the team starts playing like a team, Im good. Cant ask for more considering the heavy lift mgmt has to do to prove times are changing.

Name me one deal in the NBA this off season that was a bad one..

They get zero props for that, we overpaid for for every single FA we signed, we just didn't do it for long term, and that's the route every franchise in the NBA is going..

You get props when you make savvy trades and bring in top tier FA..

Every avg to below avg team in the league will have cap flexibility..

If you think giving 22 yr old all star (D LO) a max deal is over paying, your tripping.

IF DSJ levels up and does what D Lo did, you will be paying his ass a max contract next season for the same amount.

How about 2? Rozier and Holford. You're saying the trend is for longer contracts. Its not about handing out long term deals just for the sake of handing out long term deals. How many of the top FAs were seriously hurt?

Your plan is to pay a seriously injured player a long term deal. Why? Because thats what the rest of the league is doing. Really? Perry didnt set the market, he is responding to it. This "historic" market turned to caca when the cream of the crop went out with serious injuries. Narrowed the list of good candidates You can pretend that the facts havent changed, or you can respond to them. You seem to be arguing for the former.

knicks1248 wrote:Everyones wants to praise this FO for not signing any long term contracts.

But some don't realise the fact that this franchise under Phil and mills has become a complete revolving door. Next yr will have 7 or 8 new players (if we fail to make the playoffs)

The longest tenured knick is Now Frank (2 yrs) the worst player on the roster.

Frank is the best team player on the team.