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Desperation mode
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Vmart
Posts: 31149
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Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
6/17/2019  5:09 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
Nalod wrote:I’m not sure the wrath of Silver would come raining down on the franchise that I believe still has the most paid in taxes to the league via the Isiah Era if they cap floored for just one season.


Cash Hit Versus Cap Hit

When you trade a player in the middle of the season, you get credit for his Cap Hit onto your cap, however the Cash Hit is PRORATED at that point in time of the contract.

If Player X is signed for 20 million that season, and 1/2 the season is over, you trade for him, the 20 million goes onto your CAP SHEET, but you are only paying 10 million in cash. His previous team paid him 10 million already to that point.

Now this doesn't impact most teams cash wise because most teams are trading out nearly equalizing salaries. Which is why the CBA mandates a salary matching principle UNLESS a team has open cap space. This is also why there is a cap floor in the first place, so teams aren't just leaving dead cap space all over the place as a profit strategy.

This was even a contention with the Yankees and Brian Cashman with revenue sharing. The Yankees had to pay out more than any team in MLB history into revenue sharing because of their bloated payrolls. Apparently Cash went into a meeting with GMs and owners and said, No one is bitching about our financial warchest when we cut this revenue sharing check. Then he went for the ****ing kill. He said who should criticize us when smaller market teams takes those checks, and DON'T REINVEST INTO THEIR TEAMS TO WIN and then bitch to the press about how they can't compete with Yankee/Red Sox type money. Which is why MLB has rules now that revenue sharing money has to be pumped back into FA/player development/etc/etc to force teams to actually compete.

What Hinkie did was piss off owners ( They are all paying X amount, the 76ers were paying less and sweeping up top lottery picks) Then he pissed off the agents and NBAPA ( Inflationary control of salaries), then he pissed off the brands and networks ( nothing to market out of Philly, no stars and they were losing on purpose)

Hinkie did something many GMs wanted to do, but never got the green light from their owners to do it.

I recognize many here think Hinkie is an idiot, but in pro sports, in front offices, he's seen like a swagged out Keyzer Soze. The dude had huge ****ing balls. He knew the league would come after him and he just did not give a ****. His goal was to build a team with a chance to win and he did, cost be damned.

You say what you think, I say what I know. Any NBA team rides under the salary floor into the season, that franchise is gonna start some **** with the league administration.

Knicks need to spend that money because it's good resource management. But also because sometimes because you can do something doesn't mean it's gonna help you over the long haul if it opposes the culture in place.

Aren't the threats you outlined somewhat hollow to a flagship franchise and given our team's recent history? We're already screwed annually in the draft. Has there been a single lottery where we beat the odds and picked higher than our record would suggest? Even when we break even, it occurs in drafts where the player we want is projected a pick or two higher than when we select (e.g. Rubio/Curry; Westbrook/Love/Mayo; Jahlil Okafor/Karl Anthony Towns; etc.). And this might be fan bias but I think we continually get shafted on 50-50 calls by refs. So what is the downside of us telling the league to go **** itself?

There is no downside. The Knicks have to do what is best for them and their fan base that is all that matters. Sometimes the best moves made are the one you don’t make.

AUTOADVERT
knicks1248
Posts: 38806
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
6/17/2019  7:02 PM
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:I agree with the OP's concern. Our FO has been so inconsistent in what they say versus what they do that I am very worried this cap space will be like money burning through their pockets. While I am encouraged they didn't sell the farm for AD, I am still scratching my head as to what they think a winning team looks like and how it's formed. For the record, it's not through #1 picks necessarily

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

Maybe I missed something....Please point out what Perry has done that goes against what he said when he got here.

they preached passing and defense. They play ISO and their defense is worse than Hornacek's

The roster had less experience and talent than Hornaceks roster not to mention the roster turnover. Hiw about we wait until Perry molds the roster as he sees fit before we judge them on how they play on the court.


Blazer, Bucks and Warriors have all NBA talent and have chemistry from being together for years...

I'm all for keeping an open mind and as a fan I'd prefer to win than be right

but the criticism is legitimate. The inexperienced roster you speak of had younger legs, +Mitch, +Dot with another year, and D.Jordan at the end of the year. AND the coach was supposedly defensive minded. On top of that Mitch credited his biggest improvement not to coaching staff, but to Kerry Kittles who wasn't on staff and to D.Jordan

they also spoke a good game about building through draft and have shown some promise there, but there were also tons of reports about flipping picks for AD etc. so we'll see about whether they'll say one thing and do another there too

Not sure about your point on the other teams. I raised the issue to show that building championship caliber teams is not simply stockpiling top of the draft lottery picks. It's chemistry as you say, and mixing the right pieces into a system that works.

Regardless of their plans, the results (so far) have set them back. They are going in the wrong direction

If you think trading KP (your suppose franchise player), drafting (motor problems, no assist having) Knox, and finishing dead last to be rewarded a 3rd pick as being on track, your bar for this FO is six feet deep

ES
Vmart
Posts: 31149
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 5/23/2002
Member: #247
USA
6/17/2019  7:36 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:I agree with the OP's concern. Our FO has been so inconsistent in what they say versus what they do that I am very worried this cap space will be like money burning through their pockets. While I am encouraged they didn't sell the farm for AD, I am still scratching my head as to what they think a winning team looks like and how it's formed. For the record, it's not through #1 picks necessarily

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

Maybe I missed something....Please point out what Perry has done that goes against what he said when he got here.

they preached passing and defense. They play ISO and their defense is worse than Hornacek's

The roster had less experience and talent than Hornaceks roster not to mention the roster turnover. Hiw about we wait until Perry molds the roster as he sees fit before we judge them on how they play on the court.


Blazer, Bucks and Warriors have all NBA talent and have chemistry from being together for years...

I'm all for keeping an open mind and as a fan I'd prefer to win than be right

but the criticism is legitimate. The inexperienced roster you speak of had younger legs, +Mitch, +Dot with another year, and D.Jordan at the end of the year. AND the coach was supposedly defensive minded. On top of that Mitch credited his biggest improvement not to coaching staff, but to Kerry Kittles who wasn't on staff and to D.Jordan

they also spoke a good game about building through draft and have shown some promise there, but there were also tons of reports about flipping picks for AD etc. so we'll see about whether they'll say one thing and do another there too

Not sure about your point on the other teams. I raised the issue to show that building championship caliber teams is not simply stockpiling top of the draft lottery picks. It's chemistry as you say, and mixing the right pieces into a system that works.

Regardless of their plans, the results (so far) have set them back. They are going in the wrong direction

If you think trading KP (your suppose franchise player), drafting (motor problems, no assist having) Knox, and finishing dead last to be rewarded a 3rd pick as being on track, your bar for this FO is six feet deep

I have to disagree with you the Knicks are in a good position for once. It’s what they do with this situation that will help. First off Knox is not a bad player neither is Ntlikina it Smith they have a lot of potential to get better. What was so bothersome for me was and still is the player development. It is the worst in the league and has been the worst in the league for sometime now. The coach is awful and quite frankly he also part of the reason why the player production was so bad. Everyone says KP developed under the Knicks but the Knicks had nothing to do with it as his brother is his trainer. The mistake with the Knicks is that they do not have a developmental system. This dates back to where they stressed importance for vets. It wasn’t until Isiah believe it or not that players developed somewhat. Like David Lee, Chandler. This Jnicks organization has not developed a superstar since Ewing. All the other teams are on their 4-5 star players.

The Knicks should be ashamed of themselves. This is stagnation at its worst. Develop your own damn star player.

CrushAlot
Posts: 58624
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Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
6/17/2019  9:21 PM
Vmart wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:I agree with the OP's concern. Our FO has been so inconsistent in what they say versus what they do that I am very worried this cap space will be like money burning through their pockets. While I am encouraged they didn't sell the farm for AD, I am still scratching my head as to what they think a winning team looks like and how it's formed. For the record, it's not through #1 picks necessarily

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

Maybe I missed something....Please point out what Perry has done that goes against what he said when he got here.

they preached passing and defense. They play ISO and their defense is worse than Hornacek's

The roster had less experience and talent than Hornaceks roster not to mention the roster turnover. Hiw about we wait until Perry molds the roster as he sees fit before we judge them on how they play on the court.


Blazer, Bucks and Warriors have all NBA talent and have chemistry from being together for years...

I'm all for keeping an open mind and as a fan I'd prefer to win than be right

but the criticism is legitimate. The inexperienced roster you speak of had younger legs, +Mitch, +Dot with another year, and D.Jordan at the end of the year. AND the coach was supposedly defensive minded. On top of that Mitch credited his biggest improvement not to coaching staff, but to Kerry Kittles who wasn't on staff and to D.Jordan

they also spoke a good game about building through draft and have shown some promise there, but there were also tons of reports about flipping picks for AD etc. so we'll see about whether they'll say one thing and do another there too

Not sure about your point on the other teams. I raised the issue to show that building championship caliber teams is not simply stockpiling top of the draft lottery picks. It's chemistry as you say, and mixing the right pieces into a system that works.

Regardless of their plans, the results (so far) have set them back. They are going in the wrong direction

If you think trading KP (your suppose franchise player), drafting (motor problems, no assist having) Knox, and finishing dead last to be rewarded a 3rd pick as being on track, your bar for this FO is six feet deep

I have to disagree with you the Knicks are in a good position for once. It’s what they do with this situation that will help. First off Knox is not a bad player neither is Ntlikina it Smith they have a lot of potential to get better. What was so bothersome for me was and still is the player development. It is the worst in the league and has been the worst in the league for sometime now. The coach is awful and quite frankly he also part of the reason why the player production was so bad. Everyone says KP developed under the Knicks but the Knicks had nothing to do with it as his brother is his trainer. The mistake with the Knicks is that they do not have a developmental system. This dates back to where they stressed importance for vets. It wasn’t until Isiah believe it or not that players developed somewhat. Like David Lee, Chandler. This Jnicks organization has not developed a superstar since Ewing. All the other teams are on their 4-5 star players.

The Knicks should be ashamed of themselves. This is stagnation at its worst. Develop your own damn star player.

Ewing was a franchise changing star and that was known when he was drafted. The Knicks have had a lot of success with the guys that started or played in Westchester. Allen, Kornet, and Dotson all transitioned nicely to the nba. Also, I am sure KP worked with his brother but the Knicks also had Josh Longstaff work with him in Latvia. At one point Longstaff worked with or was going to work with the Latvian national team with KP.
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
Chandler
Posts: 23430
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Joined: 11/26/2015
Member: #6197

6/18/2019  8:21 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:I agree with the OP's concern. Our FO has been so inconsistent in what they say versus what they do that I am very worried this cap space will be like money burning through their pockets. While I am encouraged they didn't sell the farm for AD, I am still scratching my head as to what they think a winning team looks like and how it's formed. For the record, it's not through #1 picks necessarily

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

Maybe I missed something....Please point out what Perry has done that goes against what he said when he got here.

they preached passing and defense. They play ISO and their defense is worse than Hornacek's

The roster had less experience and talent than Hornaceks roster not to mention the roster turnover. Hiw about we wait until Perry molds the roster as he sees fit before we judge them on how they play on the court.


Blazer, Bucks and Warriors have all NBA talent and have chemistry from being together for years...

I'm all for keeping an open mind and as a fan I'd prefer to win than be right

but the criticism is legitimate. The inexperienced roster you speak of had younger legs, +Mitch, +Dot with another year, and D.Jordan at the end of the year. AND the coach was supposedly defensive minded. On top of that Mitch credited his biggest improvement not to coaching staff, but to Kerry Kittles who wasn't on staff and to D.Jordan

they also spoke a good game about building through draft and have shown some promise there, but there were also tons of reports about flipping picks for AD etc. so we'll see about whether they'll say one thing and do another there too

Not sure about your point on the other teams. I raised the issue to show that building championship caliber teams is not simply stockpiling top of the draft lottery picks. It's chemistry as you say, and mixing the right pieces into a system that works.

Regardless of their plans, the results (so far) have set them back. They are going in the wrong direction

If you think trading KP (your suppose franchise player), drafting (motor problems, no assist having) Knox, and finishing dead last to be rewarded a 3rd pick as being on track, your bar for this FO is six feet deep

I have to disagree with you the Knicks are in a good position for once. It’s what they do with this situation that will help. First off Knox is not a bad player neither is Ntlikina it Smith they have a lot of potential to get better. What was so bothersome for me was and still is the player development. It is the worst in the league and has been the worst in the league for sometime now. The coach is awful and quite frankly he also part of the reason why the player production was so bad. Everyone says KP developed under the Knicks but the Knicks had nothing to do with it as his brother is his trainer. The mistake with the Knicks is that they do not have a developmental system. This dates back to where they stressed importance for vets. It wasn’t until Isiah believe it or not that players developed somewhat. Like David Lee, Chandler. This Jnicks organization has not developed a superstar since Ewing. All the other teams are on their 4-5 star players.

The Knicks should be ashamed of themselves. This is stagnation at its worst. Develop your own damn star player.

Ewing was a franchise changing star and that was known when he was drafted. The Knicks have had a lot of success with the guys that started or played in Westchester. Allen, Kornet, and Dotson all transitioned nicely to the nba. Also, I am sure KP worked with his brother but the Knicks also had Josh Longstaff work with him in Latvia. At one point Longstaff worked with or was going to work with the Latvian national team with KP.

I saw a report that coach miller would be joining nyk staff. Actually fairly happy about that if true He might be our nick nurse

Martin: Hezonja will be in the NBA next year. Martin was right; I was wrong. :-(
Uptown
Posts: 27781
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

6/18/2019  5:11 PM
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:
Uptown wrote:
Chandler wrote:I agree with the OP's concern. Our FO has been so inconsistent in what they say versus what they do that I am very worried this cap space will be like money burning through their pockets. While I am encouraged they didn't sell the farm for AD, I am still scratching my head as to what they think a winning team looks like and how it's formed. For the record, it's not through #1 picks necessarily

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

Maybe I missed something....Please point out what Perry has done that goes against what he said when he got here.

they preached passing and defense. They play ISO and their defense is worse than Hornacek's

The roster had less experience and talent than Hornaceks roster not to mention the roster turnover. Hiw about we wait until Perry molds the roster as he sees fit before we judge them on how they play on the court.


Blazer, Bucks and Warriors have all NBA talent and have chemistry from being together for years...

I'm all for keeping an open mind and as a fan I'd prefer to win than be right

but the criticism is legitimate. The inexperienced roster you speak of had younger legs, +Mitch, +Dot with another year, and D.Jordan at the end of the year. AND the coach was supposedly defensive minded. On top of that Mitch credited his biggest improvement not to coaching staff, but to Kerry Kittles who wasn't on staff and to D.Jordan

they also spoke a good game about building through draft and have shown some promise there, but there were also tons of reports about flipping picks for AD etc. so we'll see about whether they'll say one thing and do another there too

Not sure about your point on the other teams. I raised the issue to show that building championship caliber teams is not simply stockpiling top of the draft lottery picks. It's chemistry as you say, and mixing the right pieces into a system that works.

Younger legs and younger brains....Defensive schemes and intricate rotations are not easy to grasp especially when those young legs are one year removed from playing 2-3 zones in college. It's a different ball-game in the NBA and much more space to cover, communication, etc...It takes time.

Lack of ball movement is also a by product of signing guys to 1 yr deals who are looking for a payday. Fiz even mentioned this at one point. For evidence, look no further than Mudiay who put up career numbers but wasn't really looking to be a ball mover...

As far as reports about trading draft picks is concerned, Perry and his staff would be idiots not to do their due diligence...

Desperation mode

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