TripleThreat wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Vmart wrote:We are getting to the point where the Knicks will get desperate. This is where it all goes wrong for the Knicks. Zion is gone, AD is off the table, KD is damaged goods, KT is damaged as well. What is Left Khawhi and Kyrie. Kyrie is entertaining the Nets and Khawhi most likely heads for LAnor stays put.

This where the Knicks desperation starts to kick in and they make moves for lower tier superstars and max them out. The Knicks need not get desperate and max players out that are not deserving of it. They need to avoid any signing of this sort and they should just stay the course with youth movement. If they are going after 2nd tier players then no way they should offer any max deals.

They get into massive trouble when they make decisions based on pure desperation.

Three things

1) Knicks need to get to the salary floor. Having the most cap space is nice in one way, but brings some issues in another.

2) John Wall is the real threat. Wizards badly want to dump that contract and the Knicks are in a prime position to absorb him. Do I think it's a good move? No, but I can see the open pathways that would make it happen.

3) The pathway that seems likely is absorbing bad contracts for picks attached. Finding a DeMarre Carroll situation is unlikely ( Give NardDog credit, he made a good call last offseason about absorbing Carroll for a pick and even some usefulness. Good job, NardDog) but maybe there is some opportunity there.

We don't have to get to the salary floor, all that happens if we don't is the money get's divided up between the players on our roster, which would be nice for Mitch- he's drastically underpaid.

Technically you don't need to get to the salary floor if you go to the letter of the law in the CBA

However, after the fallout of Sam Hinkie and the 76ers, if you actually do it, your franchise is ****ed. The league administration will **** you. The NBAPA and agents don't like teams doing it because it's a form of inflationary control on salaries in general.

How the league administration can **** you over

1) Reduced nationally televised game schedule

2) More back to backs and ****ty scheduling in the future

3) No chance at ever hosting league events or an All Star game

4) Refs will be ordered to **** your team over more than before

5) League will **** with any brand support you get that they also have ties to in some fashion

6) If you are in the draft lottery, the rigging will **** you over more than before

7) Any small infraction will merit the worst possible response allowed by the league

8) No general league protection from the media ( The league buries a **** load of dirt that if it made the press, would make people's eyes bleed from the **** that people in the league do that would piss off the public)

You can do it, go below the salary floor, but prepare to be horse****ed.

It's like when you start a new job and the boss says "I have an open door policy, talk to me about anything" Who actually does that ****? Do it, see what happens to you. Be the new guy and rock the boat, and see what the **** happens to you.

Also cap space unused, you don't get a credit for it. Dead cap space is under utilizing a valuable asset base. It's burning out the Zinger trade value for nothing. It doesn't mean to sign a bad deal, but you need to find a way to use the space somehow.

You forgot to cycle out of PED’s and most likely getting “Horse****ed” by a mouth breathing gold digger.

I’m not sure the wrath of Silver would come raining down on the franchise that I believe still has the most paid in taxes to the league via the Isiah Era if they cap floored for just one season.

Your last sentence is the most poignant. Moving the cap space cost us KP and while we are all about hating on Brothers Porzingis, we still moved an all star talent and need to use the cap space to obtain assets. If taking on bad contract for picks it has to still make sense. Griffin was bought in to sell tickets in Detroit and got them a playoff birth. Their attendance In a new arena was pathetic. Thats a trade we don’t make and he s just entering a new contact. He is not a salary dummp. Look at Miami and Whiteside at 27mm. Miami could do better if he is in “expiring contract mode” and trade him before the deadline to a playoff team where for us he might be useful but no future with us. Be the kind of rim protector Lakers will need late next year but we’d need to waive him as we did Enes. Miami has to make it worth our while. Dragic would be ok here too.

I’m not into the fiction that all vets make good role models. Whiteside does not strike me the kind of role model type. Dragic might be some east European aryan type. I don’t know, but just because he is experienced does not mean he is willing and able to provide leadership and take a graceful seat at the bench. He might be all about playing and want a new contract. I’m not calling out Dragic BTW, just a “for instance”.

Vmart wrote:We are getting to the point where the Knicks will get desperate. This is where it all goes wrong for the Knicks. Zion is gone, AD is off the table, KD is damaged goods, KT is damaged as well. What is Left Khawhi and Kyrie. Kyrie is entertaining the Nets and Khawhi most likely heads for LAnor stays put.

This where the Knicks desperation starts to kick in and they make moves for lower tier superstars and max them out. The Knicks need not get desperate and max players out that are not deserving of it. They need to avoid any signing of this sort and they should just stay the course with youth movement. If they are going after 2nd tier players then no way they should offer any max deals.

They get into massive trouble when they make decisions based on pure desperation.

On a side note we could would look something like this:
PG D Russell
SG RJ
SF Dotson
PF Randle
C Mitch
Bench: DSjr, Knox, Frank, Kornet, Jenkins, Ellenson

Literally everyone is under 25 except I think Jenkins.

Nalod wrote:Vmart, Players usually make more than what we as fans think. 25mm for a 24 year old allstar guard?
Basically you use the KP cap space for him.

Nalod, you have to ask yourself will these players put you over the top. If you had superstars already in the team then these guys make sense. You are better off sticking with a youth movement in hopes that what you currently have becomes star material. Chasing players like Russell or Randle is an exercise in futility. These are complimentary players at best. Without anything to compliment your basically creating a team with no aspirations of championship and maybe make the playoffs as a low seed if that.

You have to ask yourself is this avenue worth going down it’s not the team is going to get stuck with bad contracts. Then the phase to get rid of bad contract begins which is basically tagging picks to move them.

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:We are getting to the point where the Knicks will get desperate. This is where it all goes wrong for the Knicks. Zion is gone, AD is off the table, KD is damaged goods, KT is damaged as well. What is Left Khawhi and Kyrie. Kyrie is entertaining the Nets and Khawhi most likely heads for LAnor stays put.

This where the Knicks desperation starts to kick in and they make moves for lower tier superstars and max them out. The Knicks need not get desperate and max players out that are not deserving of it. They need to avoid any signing of this sort and they should just stay the course with youth movement. If they are going after 2nd tier players then no way they should offer any max deals.

They get into massive trouble when they make decisions based on pure desperation.

what is funny will be your definition of panic. I can see Knicks whiffing on the big name FAs and give Russell 4/$100 and Randle 4/$100 and you being "see???? I told you they would panic!!!!"

On a side note we could would look something like this:
PG D Russell
SG RJ
SF Dotson
PF Randle
C Mitch
Bench: DSjr, Knox, Frank, Kornet, Jenkins, Ellenson

Literally everyone is under 25 except I think Jenkins.

That would be to much to offer Randle and Russell. So now you know my definition. I would offer 60-80 at most for them. But you like to over pay which is basically desperation.

no it wouldnt. It would be market value. Stop pretending that somehow saving $20mm makes it go from a good move to desperate.

But you want to build around Luke Kornet so there is that for context.

I want to give Kornet a chance, because he is on the cheap and bring as much as what you so graciously want to pay a ridiculous sum of money to. All because you have become desperate for some quick fix. Randle and Russell are not worth that much.

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:We are getting to the point where the Knicks will get desperate. This is where it all goes wrong for the Knicks. Zion is gone, AD is off the table, KD is damaged goods, KT is damaged as well. What is Left Khawhi and Kyrie. Kyrie is entertaining the Nets and Khawhi most likely heads for LAnor stays put.

This where the Knicks desperation starts to kick in and they make moves for lower tier superstars and max them out. The Knicks need not get desperate and max players out that are not deserving of it. They need to avoid any signing of this sort and they should just stay the course with youth movement. If they are going after 2nd tier players then no way they should offer any max deals.

They get into massive trouble when they make decisions based on pure desperation.

what is funny will be your definition of panic. I can see Knicks whiffing on the big name FAs and give Russell 4/$100 and Randle 4/$100 and you being "see???? I told you they would panic!!!!"

On a side note we could would look something like this:
PG D Russell
SG RJ
SF Dotson
PF Randle
C Mitch
Bench: DSjr, Knox, Frank, Kornet, Jenkins, Ellenson

Literally everyone is under 25 except I think Jenkins.

That would be to much to offer Randle and Russell. So now you know my definition. I would offer 60-80 at most for them. But you like to over pay which is basically desperation.

no it wouldnt. It would be market value. Stop pretending that somehow saving $20mm makes it go from a good move to desperate.

But you want to build around Luke Kornet so there is that for context.

I want to give Kornet a chance, because he is on the cheap and bring as much as what you so graciously want to pay a ridiculous sum of money to. All because you have become desperate for some quick fix. Randle and Russell are not worth that much.

Pretty much anything that doesnt consist of league minimum contracts is overpaying for you.

Luke Kornet is a nice niche role player. If you think he's a playoff rotation player you dont watch this sport.

Vmart wrote:

Nalod wrote:Vmart, Players usually make more than what we as fans think. 25mm for a 24 year old allstar guard?
Basically you use the KP cap space for him.

Nalod, you have to ask yourself will these players put you over the top. If you had superstars already in the team then these guys make sense. You are better off sticking with a youth movement in hopes that what you currently have becomes star material. Chasing players like Russell or Randle is an exercise in futility. These are complimentary players at best. Without anything to compliment your basically creating a team with no aspirations of championship and maybe make the playoffs as a low seed if that.

You have to ask yourself is this avenue worth going down it’s not the team is going to get stuck with bad contracts. Then the phase to get rid of bad contract begins which is basically tagging picks to move them.

You can't make a move to "get over the top". its a series of building blocks. Its not the talent we see but either gets better individually or via trade. So what if Russell plays at this level and can sustain it. He is not a god, but a good one. Say DS in two years emerges as his equal or better? And what if Knox is a 20ppg, as well? And then KAT shakes lose and wants out?
I see it as a process of getting to playoffs and then continued fine tuning. Toronto biggest move? Drafted Siakim. Traded Gasol. Sure the Kawhi trade was huge, but the other pieces is what did it. Along the way they had to correct mistakes too. Landry Fields, Demarr Carroll contract, Derozens contract......It all worked out but few thought it would.

Even if Durant signed here unhurt with Kyrie I was not thinking it punches a ticket to the finals. Not sure they would have thought that either. They want to contend. Maybe we trade a bit to get more pieces in but I don't see a path to the finals. not for a year or two even if all dreams were to come true.

I suppose its all expectations.

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Vmart wrote:We are getting to the point where the Knicks will get desperate. This is where it all goes wrong for the Knicks. Zion is gone, AD is off the table, KD is damaged goods, KT is damaged as well. What is Left Khawhi and Kyrie. Kyrie is entertaining the Nets and Khawhi most likely heads for LAnor stays put.

This where the Knicks desperation starts to kick in and they make moves for lower tier superstars and max them out. The Knicks need not get desperate and max players out that are not deserving of it. They need to avoid any signing of this sort and they should just stay the course with youth movement. If they are going after 2nd tier players then no way they should offer any max deals.

They get into massive trouble when they make decisions based on pure desperation.

what is funny will be your definition of panic. I can see Knicks whiffing on the big name FAs and give Russell 4/$100 and Randle 4/$100 and you being "see???? I told you they would panic!!!!"

On a side note we could would look something like this:
PG D Russell
SG RJ
SF Dotson
PF Randle
C Mitch
Bench: DSjr, Knox, Frank, Kornet, Jenkins, Ellenson

Literally everyone is under 25 except I think Jenkins.

That would be to much to offer Randle and Russell. So now you know my definition. I would offer 60-80 at most for them. But you like to over pay which is basically desperation.

no it wouldnt. It would be market value. Stop pretending that somehow saving $20mm makes it go from a good move to desperate.

But you want to build around Luke Kornet so there is that for context.

I want to give Kornet a chance, because he is on the cheap and bring as much as what you so graciously want to pay a ridiculous sum of money to. All because you have become desperate for some quick fix. Randle and Russell are not worth that much.

investing in 23/25 year old players is not a quick fix or a desperate move. You would like to label it as such as it fits your narrative.

Pretty much anything that doesnt consist of league minimum contracts is overpaying for you.

Luke Kornet is a nice niche role player. If you think he's a playoff rotation player you dont watch this sport.

If you gave Dotson the opportunity he puts up numbers right up there with Russell and better defense. Your mistaking a lack of opportunity to being not good enough or as good as. What I’m saying is why pay for players that are redundant. You have Kornet and Vonleh and Dotson and Barrett coming you have PG in Ntlikina and Smith. Don’t just spend because you have a boatload if money.

really. you do realize that dot played 28mpg, dlo 30. dot scored 11ppg with 2apg, dlo 21ppg with 7apg.

Chandler wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Chandler wrote:I agree with the OP's concern. Our FO has been so inconsistent in what they say versus what they do that I am very worried this cap space will be like money burning through their pockets. While I am encouraged they didn't sell the farm for AD, I am still scratching my head as to what they think a winning team looks like and how it's formed. For the record, it's not through #1 picks necessarily

There are certain teams in this league who truly focus on winning championships -- and no surprise they're the ones who are always up there; they don't tolerate losing; and know the difference between being good and being great

Other teams are more focused on not being last -- and they're usually near the bottom.

this year's final four:

Toronto, GS, Bucks and Blazers. No "process" of tanking for top picks. GS has KD (#2 pick) who went there to bandwagon jump (and screwed OKC in his process). Other top picks, e.g., Bogart and Kanter are playing the bench

If you go to the top 8 situation changes slightly because of Philly and depending on your view the Celtics ( I don't think they tanked so much as they robbed the Nets)

The key to success is smart management and coaching, good drafting, great development, and some sense of what they're trying to do as a team; the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts

If we can't get a superstar in FA, then don't bite. Use that cap space in smarter ways

Maybe I missed something....Please point out what Perry has done that goes against what he said when he got here.

they preached passing and defense. They play ISO and their defense is worse than Hornacek's

The roster had less experience and talent than Hornaceks roster not to mention the roster turnover. Hiw about we wait until Perry molds the roster as he sees fit before we judge them on how they play on the court.

Blazer, Bucks and Warriors have all NBA talent and have chemistry from being together for years...

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:I’m not sure the wrath of Silver would come raining down on the franchise that I believe still has the most paid in taxes to the league via the Isiah Era if they cap floored for just one season.

Cash Hit Versus Cap Hit

When you trade a player in the middle of the season, you get credit for his Cap Hit onto your cap, however the Cash Hit is PRORATED at that point in time of the contract.

If Player X is signed for 20 million that season, and 1/2 the season is over, you trade for him, the 20 million goes onto your CAP SHEET, but you are only paying 10 million in cash. His previous team paid him 10 million already to that point.

Now this doesn't impact most teams cash wise because most teams are trading out nearly equalizing salaries. Which is why the CBA mandates a salary matching principle UNLESS a team has open cap space. This is also why there is a cap floor in the first place, so teams aren't just leaving dead cap space all over the place as a profit strategy.

This was even a contention with the Yankees and Brian Cashman with revenue sharing. The Yankees had to pay out more than any team in MLB history into revenue sharing because of their bloated payrolls. Apparently Cash went into a meeting with GMs and owners and said, No one is bitching about our financial warchest when we cut this revenue sharing check. Then he went for the ****ing kill. He said who should criticize us when smaller market teams takes those checks, and DON'T REINVEST INTO THEIR TEAMS TO WIN and then bitch to the press about how they can't compete with Yankee/Red Sox type money. Which is why MLB has rules now that revenue sharing money has to be pumped back into FA/player development/etc/etc to force teams to actually compete.

What Hinkie did was piss off owners ( They are all paying X amount, the 76ers were paying less and sweeping up top lottery picks) Then he pissed off the agents and NBAPA ( Inflationary control of salaries), then he pissed off the brands and networks ( nothing to market out of Philly, no stars and they were losing on purpose)

Hinkie did something many GMs wanted to do, but never got the green light from their owners to do it.

I recognize many here think Hinkie is an idiot, but in pro sports, in front offices, he's seen like a swagged out Keyzer Soze. The dude had huge ****ing balls. He knew the league would come after him and he just did not give a ****. His goal was to build a team with a chance to win and he did, cost be damned.

You say what you think, I say what I know. Any NBA team rides under the salary floor into the season, that franchise is gonna start some **** with the league administration.

Knicks need to spend that money because it's good resource management. But also because sometimes because you can do something doesn't mean it's gonna help you over the long haul if it opposes the culture in place.

Aren't the threats you outlined somewhat hollow to a flagship franchise and given our team's recent history? We're already screwed annually in the draft. Has there been a single lottery where we beat the odds and picked higher than our record would suggest? Even when we break even, it occurs in drafts where the player we want is projected a pick or two higher than when we select (e.g. Rubio/Curry; Westbrook/Love/Mayo; Jahlil Okafor/Karl Anthony Towns; etc.). And this might be fan bias but I think we continually get shafted on 50-50 calls by refs. So what is the downside of us telling the league to go **** itself?