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Strike out in Free Agency contingency plan
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Uptown
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6/10/2019  12:23 PM
knickstorrents wrote:
Uptown wrote:The two best young players on the Celts roster, Tatum and Brown were both picked 3RD in the draft!! It makes zero sense to trade down in a weak draft for multiple picks when there's an 18 year old who averaged 23, 8 and 4 on Duke playing against the best competition the NCAA has to offer! No need to outsmart ourselves, this one is easy.

You also failed to mention how many swings at bat Philly got before they got it right! For every Embiid and Simmons, there is a Noel, and Fultz, and Okafor and Carter-Williams. It's different because this years draft is different!

I think you are arguing against yourself here..... The Ainge Celtics accumulated tons of draft picks, and your second paragraph pretty much says we should be trying to get multiple picks at the draft to have a decent chance at finding a star.

Even a 3rd pick is no guarantee. Ayton went first last year, and I know I'd rather have Robinson at 35 then spending a first pick at Ayton.

From what I gather, the current FO thinks the same, so don't be surprised if we trade down to accumulate more assets. We are NOT a KD+Kyrie signing away from a chip. The FO promised not to skip any steps. We are still in the asset accumulation phase, we need to get a star or 2 or 3 through the draft first, then we can try to round out the roster with high profile free agents. I think signing KD would be premature for us.

I think you are arguing against yourself here..... The Ainge Celtics accumulated tons of draft picks, and your second paragraph pretty much says we should be trying to get multiple picks at the draft to have a decent chance at finding a star.

No, my argument is when you have one of the top picks in the draft, and there is a certain caliber of player available, you take him, e.g. Jayson Tatum, rather than trade back for players who ain't as good nor have the same potential. The difference of our opinions is point of view of Barrett. Obviously, I think more highly of him than you do which is why I'm against trading out of the 3 spot. Quality over quantity.

From what I gather, the current FO thinks the same, so don't be surprised if we trade down to accumulate more assets. We are NOT a KD+Kyrie signing away from a chip. The FO promised not to skip any steps. We are still in the asset accumulation phase, we need to get a star or 2 or 3 through the draft first, then we can try to round out the roster with high profile free agents. I think signing KD would be premature for us.

None of us have any idea what the front office is thinking as they are not talking. All we have is rumors and speculation. In order to win a chip, you have to have the best or at least an MVP type talent on your team. If we add KD, we most certainly are on the right path. One player (one of the top 3 in the league) being moved to Toronto took them from a 2nd round playoff team at most, to possibly winning a chip. I get not skipping steps, but what are the steps? Trading back for Grant Williams?
If the best player in the league wants to come here, you don't say no. You accept the gift.

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Knicksfan
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6/10/2019  11:00 PM
If you can’t land Kawhi and Thompson, simply stay put. Draft Barrett and keep slowly rebuilding.

Yes, I’d sign Thompson. His shooting is amazing and his game in general is really good. He isn’t at KD or Kawhi level, true, but his pure shooting is hard to find in this NBA.

Knicks_Fan
NardDogNation
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6/11/2019  1:01 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/11/2019  1:22 AM
Uptown wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
Knixkik wrote:If you strike out in free agency you just build around Barrett, Knox, and Mitch. So trading back is not a good option. We would need to gamble on Barrett becoming a superstar wing. We can’t build around future role players by trading back.

Who says guys like D.Garland, D.Hunter, J.Culver, C.White, C.Reddish and some others are role players? "Draft experts" and fans? I think each one i mentioned and a few others could turn into really good starters in the NBA and would bet that most if not all of them will be. I get all the talk of this being a 3 player draft but anyone who pays attention to the draft knows that these "draft experts" are wrong about players and what they'll be in the NBA every single year. There's always players drafted in the lottery that end up busts and there's always players drafted later in the 1st round or even the 2nd round (M.Robinson) that end up really good NBA players.

Exactly. 2013 was rumored to be a weak draft through-and-through. Giannis went 14th in it. Gobert went like 23rd. Steven Adams was like 12th. So clearly this isn't an exact science.

I'm not a proponent of Barrett. As much as the rest of the draft may be dicey? I'd be willing to trade down if it gave us multiple bites at the proverbial apple in this and future drafts. #TheHinkiePrinciple #TrustTheProcess

And if you trade back and Barrett becomes a star, the franchise is set back another 5 years. It’s a gamble either way.

Yeah but smackeddog's suggestion hedges risk more effectively because it gives us more opportunities to find a franchise-changing talent. Putting all your eggs into one basket is never a good idea. And one huge advantage as a big market franchise is that we don't need to draft a superstar; free agency will always be a viable option to acquire one. So why not build the Indiana Pacers on cost-control and then just try to sign the centerpiece we need?

Last year was a year for a volume of young players. This year, assuming the pick is not in play for a non-lottery trade, you stick with #3. There are only 5 starting slots and the well is far from dry We also have a second-rounder and players who drop through to look at.

Such is the popular opinion but the popular opinion is often wrong. I'm a little dicey about the talent in this draft so if a package of Anthony Davis and Jrue Holiday is unattainable, I'd settle on a deal that nets us future assets as well. We have to stop playing this game in which we only think about immediate goals/splashes and instead develop a bigger, longer-term vision for this team. We're not morphing into a contender overnight but the decisions we make now can make the path to success surer and steadier.

Well, I think you're missing some of the details involved. Drafting 3 first rounders means you *have to* sign them. You still have last year's and the year before and you have multiple picks coming for the next few years. That's a lot of bodies - good, bad, indifferent. The most desirable players are draft picks form four years ago who for whatever reason are available. Year five is when they have their court sense and can play.

This draft is being underestimated, IMO. For all we know it will be a strong one. What's most important this year is to make the pivot from losing to winning. And that pivot requires creating some team chemistry.

The Celtics and Sixers both implored strategies that got multiple first round picks in recent drafts and they've been the better for it. Why would it be so dramatically different for the Knicks? And why can't we draft and stash players if there is a roster crunch.

The two best young players on the Celts roster, Tatum and Brown were both picked 3RD in the draft!! It makes zero sense to trade down in a weak draft for multiple picks when there's an 18 year old who averaged 23, 8 and 4 on Duke playing against the best competition the NCAA has to offer! No need to outsmart ourselves, this one is easy.

You also failed to mention how many swings at bat Philly got before they got it right! For every Embiid and Simmons, there is a Noel, and Fultz, and Okafor and Carter-Williams. It's different because this years draft is different!

I referenced the Celtics and Sixers because they both placed an emphasis on maximizing optionality, which is what I think we should be doing. They each took as many swings as they could get before unearthing the talents they did. And yes, their best players may have been taken 3rd but could just have easily come at any point during the draft. Kawhi Leonard was drafted 15th, Paul George was drafted 11th, Giannis 14th, etc. So while I like that we finally got a top 3 pick, I'd prefer to sacrifice it if it can give us the kind of optionality to pick players throughout this AND future drafts. We don't have just one season to build this team, afterall.

And while Barrett seems like a can't miss, surefire prospect....there has been a phletora like him throughout NBA history that have been labelled as such who ended up devastating franchises. People like Michael Beasley, Greg Oden, OJ Mayo, Marvin Williams, ANDREW WIGGINS, Jahlil Okafor, Jabari Parker and Markelle Fultz immediately come to mind. What makes you so certain that Barrett isn't one of them? And those players were in a class by themselves in a DEEP draft whereas Barrett's appeal partially comes from being a big fish in a small pond.

As I said before, I'm more comfortable hedging the risk because of this reality. That doesn't mean I'm against picking in the top 3. I just prefer we position ourselves to get top 3 picks and multiple first round picks in multiple drafts like the Sixers and Celtics have. And I think a good place to start that process is now, in this draft.

GoNyGoNyGo
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6/11/2019  8:16 AM
So - this scenario is more than likely now.

The KD injury SHOULD make the Knicks look even more at Kawhii and Klay. Those are the best of the rest. (if NY signs Cousins, I will be done as a Knicks fan)

The chances of Klay leaving are slim. Kawhii is a great unknown.

If NY can sign 1 or both of the 2 above, then that is great! do it!! HArria and Middleton are good players but not MAX. Harris is a good fit too. If you can sign 2 guys like that and still have a max slot leftover then that is ok too.

If not, rebuild throught the draft. First get RJ then try to Get another top 1st round pick somehow someway. Barrett is a top player and will make the team that we saw last year better. Just adding his quality makes the team better. A few 1 year Vets and hopefully another 1st rounder and maybe a sleepr 2nd rounder and the team is completed.

RJ
2nd 1st round pick
2nd round pick
DSj
Knox
Mitch
Dotson
Trier
Kornet
LT (trade if you can)
Frank (I would give him 1 more chance but maybe need to deal him for the 2nd 1st rounder)
JEnkins
Garret
Mudiay (can be re-signed for $5M)
1 yr vet
1 yr vet


NY has multiple 1st rounders over the next few years...great for a rebuild.

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
smackeddog
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6/11/2019  12:37 PM
Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.
NardDogNation
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6/11/2019  12:42 PM
smackeddog wrote:Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.

Would you be willing to trade up for Ja Morant?

Chandler
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6/11/2019  12:47 PM
Knicksfan wrote:If you can’t land Kawhi and Thompson, simply stay put. Draft Barrett and keep slowly rebuilding.

Yes, I’d sign Thompson. His shooting is amazing and his game in general is really good. He isn’t at KD or Kawhi level, true, but his pure shooting is hard to find in this NBA.

this was my dream even before last night. I was worried last night would happen once he was a Knick (albeit 3 years out)

I sure hope Marc Gasol isn't sharing his opinion about Fizzdale with Kawhi

Martin: Hezonja will be in the NBA next year. Martin was right; I was wrong. :-(
Knixkik
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6/11/2019  12:48 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.

Would you be willing to trade up for Ja Morant?

Why trade up when Barrett is arguably better? Morant already having knee surgery and his slight frame may not hold up as well. Barrett is probably a better bet.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2019  1:01 PM
Knixkik wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.

Would you be willing to trade up for Ja Morant?

Why trade up when Barrett is arguably better? Morant already having knee surgery and his slight frame may not hold up as well. Barrett is probably a better bet.

Arguably doesn't mean it's a given. If it was a given, the Grizzlies would want RJ with the 2nd pick.

smackeddog
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6/11/2019  1:05 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.

Would you be willing to trade up for Ja Morant?

I don't think Griz would be interested. I'd feel better about rebuilding with Ja as our PG, than RJ as our SG, but I have my doubts about both of them.

NardDogNation
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6/11/2019  1:26 PM
smackeddog wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.

Would you be willing to trade up for Ja Morant?

I don't think Griz would be interested. I'd feel better about rebuilding with Ja as our PG, than RJ as our SG, but I have my doubts about both of them.

I'd be willing to give up DSJr and the 3rd but like you, I don't think they'd budge. I even contemplated taking back Chandler Parsons' contract for several of their 2nd round picks but thought it would put us at too much at a disadvantage. But I think Morant is the real deal and worth the consideration.

OffDaMeterzzzz
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6/14/2019  10:01 AM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:So - this scenario is more than likely now.

The KD injury SHOULD make the Knicks look even more at Kawhii and Klay. Those are the best of the rest. (if NY signs Cousins, I will be done as a Knicks fan)

The chances of Klay leaving are slim. Kawhii is a great unknown.

If NY can sign 1 or both of the 2 above, then that is great! do it!! HArria and Middleton are good players but not MAX. Harris is a good fit too. If you can sign 2 guys like that and still have a max slot leftover then that is ok too.

If not, rebuild throught the draft. First get RJ then try to Get another top 1st round pick somehow someway. Barrett is a top player and will make the team that we saw last year better. Just adding his quality makes the team better. A few 1 year Vets and hopefully another 1st rounder and maybe a sleepr 2nd rounder and the team is completed.

RJ
2nd 1st round pick
2nd round pick
DSj
Knox
Mitch
Dotson
Trier
Kornet
LT (trade if you can)
Frank (I would give him 1 more chance but maybe need to deal him for the 2nd 1st rounder)
JEnkins
Garret
Mudiay (can be re-signed for $5M)
1 yr vet
1 yr vet


NY has multiple 1st rounders over the next few years...great for a rebuild.

I agree that we should definitely be looking at Klay and Kawhi. I think Klay is going to resign with Golden State and Kawhi who knows? I think it would be awesome for him to resign with Toronto. The fans seem to really appreciate him there. To me, any other signing would likely be a waste of precious cap space, further disabling the future of the franchise. It would also be demoralizing as a fan. We've gone through nearly 20 years of dysfunction and terrible basketball. I want no part of Kemba (3rd tier player) or Harris (4th tier player) on max deals.

I would love to acquire an additional first round pick in this years draft. I think that is the way to go. But how? We used to give away first round picks like pez candy, but are teams doing that now? Can we acquire an additional pick for Dennis Smith Jr. or Kevin Knox?

Knixkik
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6/14/2019  10:36 AM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2019  10:37 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
smackeddog wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
smackeddog wrote:Free Agency route is over for us. Time to accept the only saviours that come to us will be via the draft and our player development. It's going to take a fair few years, but hopefully we get to see Mitch, knox, Trier, RJ, Dotson, Frank and DSj grow and it will make it more rewarding going through that and seeing them become winners.

Would you be willing to trade up for Ja Morant?

I don't think Griz would be interested. I'd feel better about rebuilding with Ja as our PG, than RJ as our SG, but I have my doubts about both of them.

I'd be willing to give up DSJr and the 3rd but like you, I don't think they'd budge. I even contemplated taking back Chandler Parsons' contract for several of their 2nd round picks but thought it would put us at too much at a disadvantage. But I think Morant is the real deal and worth the consideration.

I'll stick with RJB. I like his game translating to the NBA better. Big wing with top-tier playmaking potential. Morant is the consensus #2 prospect, but so many analysts out there love Barrett's fit better in the NBA. Keep in mind, Barrett would have been the #1 overall pick last year most likely if high school players could enter the draft.

SupremeCommander
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6/14/2019  12:33 PM
is it just me or does it feel like the count is already 0-2?
Cartman718 said: Is Fiz going to write Zion on the board during the timeout
smackeddog
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6/14/2019  12:54 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:is it just me or does it feel like the count is already 0-2?

It was terrible luck for us (surprise, surprise), but yep, this offseason feels like a big loss already. On with the slow rebuild.

Vmart
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6/14/2019  2:31 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:is it just me or does it feel like the count is already 0-2?

Your a Knick fan the count is 0-2 when you walk into the batter’s box.

ekstarks94
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6/14/2019  3:26 PM
Vmart wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:is it just me or does it feel like the count is already 0-2?

Your a Knick fan the count is 0-2 when you walk into the batter’s box.


Then try to bunt with no one on and 2 outs in the bottom of ninth.
BigDaddyG
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6/14/2019  4:29 PM    LAST EDITED: 6/14/2019  4:29 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:is it just me or does it feel like the count is already 0-2?

Yeah, our off-season has been more depressing than a season of "A Handmaid's Tale." The good thing is that we have enough cap space and picks to keep adjusting. Just gotta keep it moving.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
smackeddog
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6/14/2019  5:33 PM
Frank looks a lot bigger:

Knicksfan
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6/14/2019  7:22 PM
smackeddog wrote:Frank looks a lot bigger:

I still believe. He is one of the few guys we already have thatcould turn into a valuable 2-way player who could be part of a championship rotation. I know most have given up on him, but there has to be someone to help him bring together all that talent he sometimes shows and sometimes doesn’t show.

Knicks_Fan
Strike out in Free Agency contingency plan

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