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Why are we not that excited to add RJ Barrett?
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Nalod
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5/20/2019  5:44 PM
Joe Dumars...........
Pistol Pete, how did I not think of him!!!
Wade was great among a lot of greats.
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Knixkik
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5/20/2019  6:08 PM
Regarding the original topic; i am seeing people throwing out Wilson Chandler, Shumpert, and Justice Winslow to draw comparisons to Barrett. Given the year he had breaking ACC freshman scoring records, and also rebounding well and being the team's #1 playmaker, what is the thought-process behind the negative comparisons? He hasn't even turned 19 yet and could easily be a HS senior, yet he dominated at Duke in a way other recent top Duke draft picks (Ingram, Tatum, Winslow) couldn't even touch. Why does he have any less upside than Tatum for example, despite being the better college player? What about his game doesn't translate?
smackeddog
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5/21/2019  2:34 AM
Knixkik wrote:Regarding the original topic; i am seeing people throwing out Wilson Chandler, Shumpert, and Justice Winslow to draw comparisons to Barrett. Given the year he had breaking ACC freshman scoring records, and also rebounding well and being the team's #1 playmaker, what is the thought-process behind the negative comparisons? He hasn't even turned 19 yet and could easily be a HS senior, yet he dominated at Duke in a way other recent top Duke draft picks (Ingram, Tatum, Winslow) couldn't even touch. Why does he have any less upside than Tatum for example, despite being the better college player? What about his game doesn't translate?

To be honest, winslow is a nice player now and uninjured Wilson Chandler would be a very nice player to have alongside KD and Kyrie, so I think the 'negative' comparisons backfire

Panos
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5/21/2019  9:13 AM
J. Okafor was also once a projected #1 pick and slid to #3. Let's hope those similarities end there.
Knixkik
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5/21/2019  9:15 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Knixkik wrote:Regarding the original topic; i am seeing people throwing out Wilson Chandler, Shumpert, and Justice Winslow to draw comparisons to Barrett. Given the year he had breaking ACC freshman scoring records, and also rebounding well and being the team's #1 playmaker, what is the thought-process behind the negative comparisons? He hasn't even turned 19 yet and could easily be a HS senior, yet he dominated at Duke in a way other recent top Duke draft picks (Ingram, Tatum, Winslow) couldn't even touch. Why does he have any less upside than Tatum for example, despite being the better college player? What about his game doesn't translate?

To be honest, winslow is a nice player now and uninjured Wilson Chandler would be a very nice player to have alongside KD and Kyrie, so I think the 'negative' comparisons backfire

They are negative in the sense that you aren't trying to get a Winslow or Chandler out of a top 3 pick. They are good role players and nothing more. Barrett appears to have star potential based on his college production and physical profile, so i am wondering why some don't project him as such.

Knixkik
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5/21/2019  9:17 AM
Panos wrote:J. Okafor was also once a projected #1 pick and slid to #3. Let's hope those similarities end there.

Okafor really got hurt by a combination of the game changing and his attitude. 10 years ago a team would still be trying to build around his skillset.

technomaster
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5/21/2019  9:27 AM
I brought up folks like Winslow/Chandler/Harden up because that's what some of the draft sites have been calling out.

Some of these analysts say he has "James Harden" 2.0 upside. Lefty, all-around game. Barrett is bigger and perhaps a better athlete. But he doesn't have as much of the herky jerky deception thing that Harden already had in college - and that's what helped evolve Harden into the MVP-level beast that he is today. Harden has also tightened up his handle over the years. But RJ didn't show pure shooter potential in college.

Barrett's wheelhouse is solid all-around play and strong playmaking instincts - he finds himself in the right place at the right time. Perhaps a more ideal comparison is NBA Grant Hill - as a point forward (or point wing) on the court. Hill wasn't a particularly good shooter but could get to his spots and do damage. As a freshman he shot 61% FT, ultimately finishing college at 70% FT. In the NBA he ended his career as a 77% FT shooter, but never established himself as a reliable 3pt shooter. He wasn't a perfect player, but during his first 6 seasons with the Pistons, he looked like he was destined to be an all-time great.

To get the most out of Barrett, a team will need to reliquish some PG control of the ball to him and ideally have a PG that can play off the ball as a scorer (or shooter). The Knicks, as presently constructed, would be perfect with that. This past season, we had no creators outside of the PG position, and even our PGs don't excel with that role at this stage of their careers.

So yeah. Comps like Wilson Chandler, Winslow, Tatum may work from an athleticism standpoint, but none of those 3 ever showed the ability to create for others in college or even the pros to this point that Barrett has been showcasing for years.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
GustavBahler
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5/21/2019  9:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2019  9:42 AM
technomaster wrote:I brought up folks like Winslow/Chandler/Harden up because that's what some of the draft sites have been calling out.

Some of these analysts say he has "James Harden" 2.0 upside. Lefty, all-around game. Barrett is bigger and perhaps a better athlete. But he doesn't have as much of the herky jerky deception thing that Harden already had in college - and that's what helped evolve Harden into the MVP-level beast that he is today. Harden has also tightened up his handle over the years. But RJ didn't show pure shooter potential in college.

Barrett's wheelhouse is solid all-around play and strong playmaking instincts - he finds himself in the right place at the right time. Perhaps a more ideal comparison is NBA Grant Hill - as a point forward (or point wing) on the court. Hill wasn't a particularly good shooter but could get to his spots and do damage. As a freshman he shot 61% FT, ultimately finishing college at 70% FT. In the NBA he ended his career as a 77% FT shooter, but never established himself as a reliable 3pt shooter. He wasn't a perfect player, but during his first 6 seasons with the Pistons, he looked like he was destined to be an all-time great.

To get the most out of Barrett, a team will need to reliquish some PG control of the ball to him and ideally have a PG that can play off the ball as a scorer (or shooter). The Knicks, as presently constructed, would be perfect with that. This past season, we had no creators outside of the PG position, and even our PGs don't excel with that role at this stage of their careers.

So yeah. Comps like Wilson Chandler, Winslow, Tatum may work from an athleticism standpoint, but none of those 3 ever showed the ability to create for others in college or even the pros to this point that Barrett has been showcasing for years.

From what Ive seen of Barrett this season, I agree he cant put his defender on a string like Harden, but he does have a nice hesitation move to the rim, good burst. The downside to having someone like Harden on the team who can do what he does with the ball, is the potential for his teammates to just stand there and watch.

Fizdale said something about a "one second rule". Dont believe Barrett will hold the ball as much as Harden does, hope not. Hasn't worked in Houston.

SupremeCommander
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5/21/2019  10:15 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:also, that Clyde Drexler wasn't mentioned should constitute crimes against humanity

I thought about Clyde, but I still have Jordan, Wade, Kobe, West ahead of him. Also you have guys like Elgin, Reggie(who I believe is overrated), Earl, Pistol, Gervin etc. who can make compelling arguments for being in the top 5.

I probably have them ahead of Clyde too, and my comment not so much directed at you.. just want Clyde to at least get an honorable mention - he was great. My dad loved basketball and I got into it because of him. I fell in love with the Knicks and MSG then. But me, I fell in love with the actual game watching Clyde vs. Jordan in the Finals. At the time, people thought Clyde might be the best player in the league. Yes, there was a time when some people thought Clyde was better than Jordan

Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
technomaster
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5/21/2019  10:35 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
technomaster wrote:I brought up folks like Winslow/Chandler/Harden up because that's what some of the draft sites have been calling out.

Some of these analysts say he has "James Harden" 2.0 upside. Lefty, all-around game. Barrett is bigger and perhaps a better athlete. But he doesn't have as much of the herky jerky deception thing that Harden already had in college - and that's what helped evolve Harden into the MVP-level beast that he is today. Harden has also tightened up his handle over the years. But RJ didn't show pure shooter potential in college.
<snip>

From what Ive seen of Barrett this season, I agree he cant put his defender on a string like Harden, but he does have a nice hesitation move to the rim, good burst. The downside to having someone like Harden on the team who can do what he does with the ball, is the potential for his teammates to just stand there and watch.

Fizdale said something about a "one second rule". Dont believe Barrett will hold the ball as much as Harden does, hope not. Hasn't worked in Houston.

Few players in the history of the game could manipulate defenders like Harden, so there's that. :) If Harden is the bar (MVP-level, in the conversation as an all-time great player), I think the Knicks would be extremely fortunate if Barrett got there. Realistically, Barrett doesn't need 10 elite moves/counters (Carmelo was quite great with his jab step by itself!) - but he just needs enough deception to freeze defenders to do what he wants to do on the floor. He already has some tools in his arsenal that he'll no doubt continue to improve on. I think Knick fans are well schooled on the ills of heavy isolation/1-on-1 (or in Harden's case, 1-on-5 sometimes!).


Regarding Houston:
I wouldn't say it really hasn't worked for Houston - it works, but it's always hard to beat "the better team". They've had excellent teams over the past couple of years, but come on, the Warriors have had talent to spare. They COULD be gunning for 70+ wins every year, but they coast a lot, still stung by losing in the finals during the 73-9 season. Now they're like distance racers. They want to exert the minimal amount of effort to reach the desired results. (To get the win, you don't need to set world records, you just need to beat the team behind them)

The Warriors (and the Lebron Cavs) played differently from contenders that hadn't won before. Every other coach preaches 100% effort on every play. Not these teams... because they have the luxury and capacity to turn it up a notch.

(Yeah, this year the Rockets lost in 6 this year (and CP3 was actually relatively healthy in the playoffs for the first time... ever?!) - but I'm pretty sure Draymond gave Harden 2 black eyes in game 2 with the swipe to the face and that Harden's face hurt for the remainder of the series. The Warriors mix precision and pure talent with a painful amount of "coincidental" targeted roughhousing/thugball - see also Looney crushing Lillard)

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
Knixkik
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5/21/2019  11:27 AM
technomaster wrote:I brought up folks like Winslow/Chandler/Harden up because that's what some of the draft sites have been calling out.

Some of these analysts say he has "James Harden" 2.0 upside. Lefty, all-around game. Barrett is bigger and perhaps a better athlete. But he doesn't have as much of the herky jerky deception thing that Harden already had in college - and that's what helped evolve Harden into the MVP-level beast that he is today. Harden has also tightened up his handle over the years. But RJ didn't show pure shooter potential in college.

Barrett's wheelhouse is solid all-around play and strong playmaking instincts - he finds himself in the right place at the right time. Perhaps a more ideal comparison is NBA Grant Hill - as a point forward (or point wing) on the court. Hill wasn't a particularly good shooter but could get to his spots and do damage. As a freshman he shot 61% FT, ultimately finishing college at 70% FT. In the NBA he ended his career as a 77% FT shooter, but never established himself as a reliable 3pt shooter. He wasn't a perfect player, but during his first 6 seasons with the Pistons, he looked like he was destined to be an all-time great.

To get the most out of Barrett, a team will need to reliquish some PG control of the ball to him and ideally have a PG that can play off the ball as a scorer (or shooter). The Knicks, as presently constructed, would be perfect with that. This past season, we had no creators outside of the PG position, and even our PGs don't excel with that role at this stage of their careers.

So yeah. Comps like Wilson Chandler, Winslow, Tatum may work from an athleticism standpoint, but none of those 3 ever showed the ability to create for others in college or even the pros to this point that Barrett has been showcasing for years.

Hill is who i was thinking as well. I thought prime Hill on the upside or Jalen Rose on the downside.

Nalod
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5/21/2019  1:34 PM
If we going duke players.....Winslow (he was a physical beast) but he fell to like 10th? We doing Tatum and Grant Hill? Should we do Danny Ferry somewhere there too? Or we save him for the white guys?

Nalod thinks MDA is a top coach because these Rocket teams are much better than on paper and he is wringing what he can out of his players! CP3 is toast and what he has given license to Harden is really quite amazing!!! He performs up to task as well.

smackeddog
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5/21/2019  4:28 PM


Nice! I like him, not getting too high though as Perry and Mills have been very shady since we landed the third pick.

Up to the lottery, I was looking forward to finally knowing what our next step was, but now it seems we’re going to be guessing until at least the lottery

ramtour420
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5/21/2019  6:49 PM
I am excited! Are you kidding me? This kid might become the best player of the draft in 5 years. Looks crafty around the basket, he looks like a larger T-Mac out there. Better nor be trading him, I'd be super pis$ed. Steve Nash is his godfather! This is just the right recipe to break the Ewing curse!!!!
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
ramtour420
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5/21/2019  6:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 5/21/2019  6:51 PM

I am excited! Are you kidding me? This kid might become the best player of the draft in 5 years. Looks crafty around the basket, he looks like a larger T-Mac out there. Better not be trading him, I'd be super pis$ed. Steve Nash is his godfather! This is just the right recipe to break the Ewing curse!!!!
Everything you have ever wanted is on the other side of fear- George Adair
nyk2017
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5/22/2019  12:02 AM
I would love to see us add KD, Kawahi or Kyrie + Barrett to the team we already have. DSJr as #4 option. Knox/Mitchell as #5/6 options. Resign Deandre for less money (if possible). Trier, Dotson off the bench and we good a good/balanced team.
technomaster
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5/22/2019  1:16 PM
Given that coach K has heen around forever, comparing Duke players to other Duke players gives some logical context - we can hear what the coach had to say about his players and we get a chance to what roles the players took within his system.

For example, coach K commented that Ok4 wasnt ready. And it has played out.

We’ve seen what Winslow did on that same team. Similar size as Barrett, but he basically played a small PF role on that team. Barrett, in contrast, played a perimeter player role in the offense and was a much bigger contributor in all areas - ball handling, distributor, scorer, rebounder. From that we might extrapolate that his skills in all those areas are more advanced than Winslow’s, this may have more success at the NBA level, particularly early in his career.

There haven't been a lot of do-it-all sort of players at Duke. Most tend to play their focused roles on the team. This year they gave the keys to both Zion and Barrett, which speaks to their excellence.

The same sort of comparisons raise red flags for Reddish, who was cast in the role of a more typical Duke player, yet failed to excel. I’m baffled why he's considered a lottery pick at this point. Hes the sort of player coach K would express reservations over.

“That was two, two from the heart.” - John Starks
SupremeCommander
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5/23/2019  9:58 AM
from the post:
"Barrett is the only freshman in ACC history to average 22 points, seven assists and four rebounds per game, and he did it while sharing the ball with national phenomenon Zion Williamson."
Sambakick wrote: Gives a whole new meaning to "Jazz Hands"
GustavBahler
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5/23/2019  10:15 AM
SupremeCommander wrote:from the post:
"Barrett is the only freshman in ACC history to average 22 points, seven assists and four rebounds per game, and he did it while sharing the ball with national phenomenon Zion Williamson."

Look at how Barrett played without Zion. More aggressive, played with more confidence. Two max slots for FAs. Hope isnt "Davis or bust". Thats how bad deals are made.

Uptown
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5/23/2019  10:23 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:from the post:
"Barrett is the only freshman in ACC history to average 22 points, seven assists and four rebounds per game, and he did it while sharing the ball with national phenomenon Zion Williamson."

Look at how Barrett played without Zion. More aggressive, played with more confidence. Two max slots for FAs. Hope isnt "Davis or bust". Thats how bad deals are made.

RJ is a dawg is will thrive in NY!!! I've said before that as well as RJ played in college, his game will be even better in the NBA with the spacing, especially if he can team with a shooter or 2. He has the potential to be a multiple all star....

Why are we not that excited to add RJ Barrett?

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