GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:We will have a better idea of Knox's ceiling next season, after he's had some time to get in better shape. Was against starting Knox so soon, thought he should have been brought along slower. I like the idea of Knox working through his mistakes, but the minutes have been clearly too much for him.

If Frank had been a starter his rookie year, since early in the season. More minutes, playing mostly against starting units, I can only imagine what his numbers would have been like on both sides of the ball.

Frank hasn't prove he could handle 20/25 minutes per night, JH specifically said the kid was exhausted.

Knox played like this against other guys his size and age in HS and college. Playing stupid has nothing to do with getting stronger, he has never pass the ball at any level, his defense is a after thought, and and he has always been a disappearing act(heads in the clouds) kind of player. These were the knocks coming in, and he has done nothing to silent the critics.

who's showing him the right way to play, is it frank, DSJ, Mitch, Trier, lance, luke, THJ, Noah, Mario... You get my point

You keep suggesting that Knox hasnt had any good stretches as a pro. Thats false. Were those games indicative of how he played in college? Knox was playing well near the end of last year, then he fell off a cliff.

Im guessing that conditioning played a big part. You are correct that Frank couldnt handle more minutes. They flashed a stat on the screen, the last game which showed that Knox was getting a lot of minutes historically for a rookie, his age.

Frank couldnt handle the extra minutes, Knox has shown at his stage, that he cant either. Until Knox gets in better shape, has a chance to work on his game over the summer, proclaiming him to be a bust, is really silly.

It's really the whole development process is a complete joke. Guys like knox and frank should be starting out at the end of the bench on a really good team, they need to be sitting and hanging with good veterans, on the bench, in the film room, in the hotel, in the gym, at the club.

Some of you don't take into consideration of the city these kids play in, it's not easy for some vets let alone 19-22 yr olds.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:We will have a better idea of Knox's ceiling next season, after he's had some time to get in better shape. Was against starting Knox so soon, thought he should have been brought along slower. I like the idea of Knox working through his mistakes, but the minutes have been clearly too much for him.

If Frank had been a starter his rookie year, since early in the season. More minutes, playing mostly against starting units, I can only imagine what his numbers would have been like on both sides of the ball.

Frank hasn't prove he could handle 20/25 minutes per night, JH specifically said the kid was exhausted.

Knox played like this against other guys his size and age in HS and college. Playing stupid has nothing to do with getting stronger, he has never pass the ball at any level, his defense is a after thought, and and he has always been a disappearing act(heads in the clouds) kind of player. These were the knocks coming in, and he has done nothing to silent the critics.

who's showing him the right way to play, is it frank, DSJ, Mitch, Trier, lance, luke, THJ, Noah, Mario... You get my point

You keep suggesting that Knox hasnt had any good stretches as a pro. Thats false. Were those games indicative of how he played in college? Knox was playing well near the end of last year, then he fell off a cliff.

Im guessing that conditioning played a big part. You are correct that Frank couldnt handle more minutes. They flashed a stat on the screen, the last game which showed that Knox was getting a lot of minutes historically for a rookie, his age.

Frank couldnt handle the extra minutes, Knox has shown at his stage, that he cant either. Until Knox gets in better shape, has a chance to work on his game over the summer, proclaiming him to be a bust, is really silly.

It's really the whole development process is a complete joke. Guys like knox and frank should be starting out at the end of the bench on a really good team, they need to be sitting and hanging with good veterans, on the bench, in the film room, in the hotel, in the gym, at the club.

Some of you don't take into consideration of the city these kids play in, it's not easy for some vets let alone 19-22 yr olds.

Wanted to see more ball movement at times this season, still its the youngest team in the league. The ideal situation you're describing is a team like GS, or the Spurs. This franchise is at a crossroads, lots of decisions to be made, as far as free agency, the draft, who to keep. Can understand why its gotten so ugly on the court.

Derek Fisher (for a different reason) did the same thing, kept moving players in and out of the starting lineup, and the team never really gelled.

Next season, we should.have at least one star, maybe someone to help mentor Knox. Hard to pick up things from the youngest team in the league, most of them are learning too.

Nalod wrote:The notion of "Mentoring" is a bit overblown. That's not to say its black and white, works or it don't. Young players need redundant coaching or "Mentoring" until it becomes instinct. As I have said before you look at these guys in person they are physically young for their age. This is why some think they need to time to grow into the body. For us parents we have told our kids over and over things but until its experienced and they act on it, it then transforms from "information to knowledge". Mitch is doing things now he did not do a few weeks ago. Its not like a light bulb went off, it is instinctive and learned skill. Some of us think we have diagnosed Frank or Knox's issues. We have not. We are not coaches or scouts. We apply logic as we know it.
Some of us know more than others. I have enough to not label these kids with "Never".

Disagree, Clyde talks about it all the time...

Nash on mentoring

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56a82abce4b0947efb65ef5b/amp

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:The notion of "Mentoring" is a bit overblown. That's not to say its black and white, works or it don't. Young players need redundant coaching or "Mentoring" until it becomes instinct. As I have said before you look at these guys in person they are physically young for their age. This is why some think they need to time to grow into the body. For us parents we have told our kids over and over things but until its experienced and they act on it, it then transforms from "information to knowledge". Mitch is doing things now he did not do a few weeks ago. Its not like a light bulb went off, it is instinctive and learned skill. Some of us think we have diagnosed Frank or Knox's issues. We have not. We are not coaches or scouts. We apply logic as we know it.
Some of us know more than others. I have enough to not label these kids with "Never".

Disagree, Clyde talks about it all the time...

Nash on mentoring

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56a82abce4b0947efb65ef5b/amp

The fact that both perry and fiz stress this in september and clearly didn't do anything to change it, tells me a lot about the FO..

Like if you have even the smallest of bubble on your tire, there is like a 90% chance of that tire blowing out on the highway, so why would you do it..

I have no patiences for people who do the same thing and expect different results

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Nalod wrote:The notion of "Mentoring" is a bit overblown. That's not to say its black and white, works or it don't. Young players need redundant coaching or "Mentoring" until it becomes instinct. As I have said before you look at these guys in person they are physically young for their age. This is why some think they need to time to grow into the body. For us parents we have told our kids over and over things but until its experienced and they act on it, it then transforms from "information to knowledge". Mitch is doing things now he did not do a few weeks ago. Its not like a light bulb went off, it is instinctive and learned skill. Some of us think we have diagnosed Frank or Knox's issues. We have not. We are not coaches or scouts. We apply logic as we know it.
Some of us know more than others. I have enough to not label these kids with "Never".

Disagree, Clyde talks about it all the time...

Nash on mentoring

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56a82abce4b0947efb65ef5b/amp

The fact that both perry and fiz stress this in september and clearly didn't do anything to change it, tells me a lot about the FO..

Like if you have even the smallest of bubble on your tire, there is like a 90% chance of that tire blowing out on the highway, so why would you do it..

I have no patiences for people who do the same thing and expect different results

They have bought in Rasheed, Ewing, Clyde, and other ex knicks this season. They had Timmy, Clee, Lance and Enes as Vets.
Last year they had Jack doing a great job at the point.
I have no patience for lazy posters.
Fiz is on record for bringing in people. There are not too many vets that want to be on Tanks for min money and are qualified to mentor yoots. Just telling guys stuff is not mentorship.
Clyde saying "I would tell them not to do that" is not mentorship. You have coaches working with these guys every day.
Going the extra mile on details. Maybe the young guys should be seeking out mentors?
Knox has Charlie Ward and his dad. Not all time greats but very accomplished. Often its the non stars that are great mentors.

Those are not mentors, is clyde or ewing sitting on the bench, in the film room, at the hotel, in the clubs..you think a little speech is what matters..THJ needs a mentor as well, and clee is cool but he is not a PG, he is not a ball handler.

Fiz gave all the credit to D jordan for mitch's progress, he's a center..wake up fool

THJ is still trying to find his way..give me a break dude, you definitely say some retarded sht sometimes just to disagree with me

Nalod wrote:They have brought in Rasheed, Ewing, Clyde, and other ex knicks this season. They had Timmy, Clee, Lance and Enes as Vets.
Last year they had Jack doing a great job at the point.

Teams "hire" former players or ex-teammates because it's simply easier to have them on payroll than to just keep lending them money or giving them premium ticket space/seats. They then can be shielded a bit liability wise, can be held to some kind of contract and offer some small tax write offs over the long haul. Also some of these guys will try to scratch out money selling info to tabloids or for future books or media sports personalities to stir **** up.

Jerry Reisendorf gave Scottie Pippen one last gift contract at the end of his career because Pippen was broke. He blew the money like he blew all his other money. So the easiest thing to do at the end was to just hire Pippen and basically manage his money for him so he wouldn't starve.

Mentorship is a push/pull dynamic. Veterans lose their jobs to cheaper cost controlled rookies. So why would you want to train your replacement? Jared Jefferies was at the end of his career and took in Jeremy Lin and Iman Shumpert under his wing. In part because it helps open up future coaching opportunities later. Or a spot in a front office or some other role on a team.

IF "MENTORSHIP" HAPPENS, A VETERAN PLAYER USUALLY HAS A PERSONAL INCENTIVE TO "MENTOR" A YOUNGER PLAYER WHO IS LIKELY TO REPLACE HIM SOON ON THE ROSTER AND CAP.

If there is no incentive, then he won't do it.

The Jets had a veteran fullback, Richardson, who took in Rex Ryans new pet toy, John "Terminator" Conner, under his wing during training cap because it was clear the veteran was likely not going to make the roster. Get a good rep, show some coaching chops, show some leadership, that only helps you into a non playing role later.

Andrew "Baby Hawk" Hawkins is a master class case of making a career out of nothing. Fringe player, who ended up in Michael Irvin's show 4th And Long and managed to parlay that into a training camp invite to the Bengals then eventually ended up on the Patriots. He was offered a front office internship in EVERY FRANCHISE he passed through (As it was clear he was a fringe guy who might not make a 53 ). He just impressed the **** out of people. He worked with younger players as a veteran, was good with the media, was good with the coaches, the fans, the support staff. He was offered jobs by the networks, the brands and by agents at their firms. In an environment where nearly everyone is a narcissistic idiot, Baby Hawk was a true breath of fresh air.

No one wants to be associated much with Ewing, Abdul Jabbar or an Oakley because they are jerks and spent their careers as jerks. Oak would actively try to hurt young/fringe guys in the preseason. Think about it, some guy who would have to fight and be lucky to be the last guy on the roster, and Oak is basically beating you down every practice. Going after your lower back, your knees, driving you into the ground, taking body shots at you, tormenting you in the locker room, **** talking you in games, well lots of those guys ended up having to work in other areas of the game. The media, rep agencies, the brands, the leagues, other teams in a non playing role. You think they forgot that ****? Oak was a great player for the Knicks. He also has a rep as truly craptastic person and human being.

Sometimes you get a Andrew Hawkins. You hire him because he makes everything and everyone better.

Most of the time? It's about a broke ass mother****er who you want to stop begging and crying for money and tickets and free stuff.

Most of you are still in the working world. Are you telling me none of you have a guy on your payroll that might be able to the job, but you'd be happy as **** if he got hit by a car and never came back, or got fired or moved out of state and disappeared forever?

You have to LIVE with this people. You have spend ungodly hours with these people. You have to travel, eat, sleep, work, socialize, train, bleed, sweat, cry, celebrate, struggle, fight, and family up these people. It's hard enough to do this with players you can't dump ( guaranteed contracts, star players, nepotism cases), but in an area you can control (former players), why take the headache if you don't need it?

"Why don't the Knicks take in former Player X to be a coach/mentor/front office trainee?"

Probably the same reason no other team in the league wants him either, because he's an exhausting mother****er to be around. These are still just PEOPLE, and they all have the SAME PEOPLE PROBLEMS as any other industry.

jrodmc wrote:14 paragraphs to say "everybody ****s"

Not everybody but some specific group of self-entitled spoiled brats which is a common cultural character in NBA specifically and in pro sport in general. You can put a ball in the hole and get paid millions for that. So why not became entangled in thinking that you can do whatever you want. NBA fraternity is well aware and have the whole system to deal with this bunch.

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:We will have a better idea of Knox's ceiling next season, after he's had some time to get in better shape. Was against starting Knox so soon, thought he should have been brought along slower. I like the idea of Knox working through his mistakes, but the minutes have been clearly too much for him.

If Frank had been a starter his rookie year, since early in the season. More minutes, playing mostly against starting units, I can only imagine what his numbers would have been like on both sides of the ball.

Frank hasn't prove he could handle 20/25 minutes per night, JH specifically said the kid was exhausted.

Knox played like this against other guys his size and age in HS and college. Playing stupid has nothing to do with getting stronger, he has never pass the ball at any level, his defense is a after thought, and and he has always been a disappearing act(heads in the clouds) kind of player. These were the knocks coming in, and he has done nothing to silent the critics.

who's showing him the right way to play, is it frank, DSJ, Mitch, Trier, lance, luke, THJ, Noah, Mario... You get my point

You keep suggesting that Knox hasnt had any good stretches as a pro. Thats false. Were those games indicative of how he played in college? Knox was playing well near the end of last year, then he fell off a cliff.

Im guessing that conditioning played a big part. You are correct that Frank couldnt handle more minutes. They flashed a stat on the screen, the last game which showed that Knox was getting a lot of minutes historically for a rookie, his age.

Frank couldnt handle the extra minutes, Knox has shown at his stage, that he cant either. Until Knox gets in better shape, has a chance to work on his game over the summer, proclaiming him to be a bust, is really silly.

It's really the whole development process is a complete joke. Guys like knox and frank should be starting out at the end of the bench on a really good team, they need to be sitting and hanging with good veterans, on the bench, in the film room, in the hotel, in the gym, at the club.

Some of you don't take into consideration of the city these kids play in, it's not easy for some vets let alone 19-22 yr olds.

#1 these kids should be molded and trained within good habits from when they first started to play organized bball until they make the league. It should be embedded in them when they are at their highest level of Influence. It shouldn't be them waiting until they reach the NBA to now need mentorship into how to play winning basketball. Mentorship should be more so about tips and tricks to reach new levels on an already established foundation of winning bball built up through the decade plus most of these kids have been playing ball.

There isn't any real evidence that having them sit on the bench or giving them mins early in their careers will make or ruin players. There are players who sat at the end of benches and never became good. There are players who got mins early and struggled then kicked into new gears in their careers. Ultimately the only common trait for success has been work ethic and being used in the correct setting given the advantages and disadvantages. Confidence is also one of the bigger factors. Giving them small roles within their skill sets then expanding those roles as they grow to maintain confidence within their strengths.

I think Knox will be a stretch 4 when it's all said and done and not a 3. Problem is he isnt strong enough yet to be a consistent 4 and isn't agile enough defensively to be a 3. Once he gets his strength up and is utilized in more of a stretch 4 role who can put the ball on the floor he will find a role that he is successful in. This could then build his confidence. He wouldn't be a complete bball player until he created for others. But he may fair better defensively vs 4s with added strength. But he may be a few seasons away from that.

newyorknewyork wrote:#1 these kids should be molded and trained within good habits from when they first started to play organized bball until they make the league.

Ultimately the only common trait for success .....

The baseline problem is the gaps in tiers of talent in high level basketball is vast.

A top prospect, or even a top 200 prospect will smoke nearly everyone else out of a gym. When you never challenged, it's easy to get by on what you have right now. Going against elite competition consistently forces you to be a better player/prospect.

The advantage Curry and Thompson had before they were GSW came from playing against their dads, NBA veterans. Marc Gasol had to go to war on the court growing up against a future HOFer in Pau Gasol.

Talent is the common trait for success.

One of the core problems with the NBA is there is a minimum height/athleticism threshold that is hard to find. Those who have some of it can excel at lower levels by pure domination. They get to the top of the mountain and it's a different story.

The worst guy in the G League is a world class athlete. The worst guy on his college team was a top 2 percent athlete in the nation.

Talent trumps all in the NBA. You can have all the intangibles, but if you CANNOT adjust/counter adjust at NBA game speed, you are plain ****ed.

"Development" in the NBA is overblown. Most guys cannot dominate at this level. So they must change their game TO FIT A ROLE. Something they never had to do before. They need to build a rapport with the refs, build up conditioning for this kind of grind, learn how to cycle PEDS at this level, and do lots of film work/scouting work and fill out a bit physically. Very little of this has to do with a coach telling them how to play the game. Or how to prepare. Basketball is an insanely simple game. These guys have been told where to be, what to do, at what time, their entire lives.