fitzfarm wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2822874-metrics-101-exposing-the-nbas-worst-defender-at-every-position?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=nba#slide3

KEVIN KNOX

DBPM: minus-2.5

DRPM: minus-3.49

D-PIPM: minus-1.8

That Kevin Knox needs to work on his defense isn't exactly a surprise.

That was the big knock on his game prior to the 2018 NBA draft, and it's remained his biggest bugaboo despite shooting only 36.2 percent from the field throughout his initial campaign. New York Knicks head coach David Fizdale didn't mince words on the topic in late December, per Stefan Bondy of the New York Daily News:

"I'm really looking at his defense and his rebounding. Those are the other areas that I'm really hammering on. The scoring, I'm telling you this kid is just going to get better and better at the scoring because he's a natural with that. But what we're really harping on him with his is defending and rebounding. Those are the things we're really drilling."

Since that article's publication, the Knicks have allowed 105.9 points per 100 possessions without the 19-year-old on the floor. When he plays, that defensive rating skyrockets to a putrid 112.1—an effect that can be attributed to his cinderblock feet and late reactions, as evidenced by a minus-3.49 DRPM that ranks No. 88 among the 88 players listed as small forwards by ESPN.

Positional versatility is coveted in today's NBA, but Knox's shoddy defense should earn him the dreaded "tweener" label—on that end of the floor, at least. Listed at just 215 pounds despite his 6'9" frame, he doesn't have the strength to hang with bigger forwards who bully him for deep post position or the foot speed necessary to prevent quicker wings from blowing by him en route to uncontested finishes at the hoop.

THAT RECENT CLEVELAND LOST, WAS a perfect example of our bad he is, because when he came back in the game, we were horrible bad in an instant

why did the FO and the coach PREACH, DEFENSE..DEFENSE..DEFENSE AS THE #1 PRIORITY all summer long, and then go out and draft a guy who had major defense question marks and motor issues coming in. He's worse than Melo, Amare and kanter..

Man the kid is 19!consistancy is the number one issue with ANY 19 year old... kids probably going to be the next Paul George by the time he’s 22... remember PG13 sucked his rookie year too.

ummm...That's definitely not true

Umm yea he did the guy shot 29% from 3 and averaged 7 pts per game . Knox is averaging almost 13 pts a game. Oh and PG13 was still a wimpy kid in college at 19... he didn’t even debut till 20 and a half . PG13 had a very underwhelming rookie year.

So Knox is almost averaging double what PG13 did his rookie and Knox is doing it a whole year younger ...

Give the child a chance to mature, if the pacers gave up on PG13 after a aweful rookie showing and traded him they would have never got the haul they did from OKC .... if they did trade him after a dismal rookie season... it would have been a very knick like move to give up on a young talent like PG13.

Again let’s not throw a 19 year old kid under the bus for being a 19 year old kid playing vs grown men.

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks got trashed for the last player they picked in the lottery for defensive purposes. Knox has pretty much performed like a 2nd round pick. But there is no agenda after him so he can rest easy being 19 years old.

There is no proven formula to the lottery as much as people tried to make it seem that way last draft. You take players who are young and have potential. And try to weigh on how they will improve their games and weaknesses. How strong is their work ethics? Do they have high characters? Do they love and live for the game or is it just a job?

If Knox was showing the same offensively challenged game that Frank has shown since being drafted, you would hear a lot more concern. Knox was named rookie of the month for his production on offense. Not one good game, then weeks (if not months) before we see another good one. Like we saw often with Frank.

Knox doesnt look as fast as he did early in the season, looks spent. Frank got 20 minutes every game like clockwork his rookie season. Cant remember another Knicks rookie in recent memory who was treated with kid gloves the way Frank was. Was the right thing to do, given his age, new to this country, the NBA, and his lack of conditioning. Knox hasnt had that kind of consistency in his minutes, or his place in the rotation.

Other than a few nice floaters, Knox has shown to be very offensively challenged though. He is 6'9 and shoots 36% from the field. With a -.5 ast to turn over ratio. And this doesn't even get into the other aspects of the game besides scoring. He came from AAU and he played a year under a proven coach in Calipari in Kentucky. He was also drafted in the lottery. According to the arguments made last season AAU and college should have installed way more craft to his game than he has show. Being drafted in the lottery he shouldn't look like a project according to the arguments made last season.

Knox has gotten 28 mins a game and has 39 starts out of the 57 games he played so far. And not one call for Knox to see time in the G-league . Frank got 22 mins a game and 9 starts out of 78 games last season. Not to mention Frank was in like 80%+ in the positive lineups the Knicks had last season. As well as the #1 PG in PNR. Not saying Frank has had a good career so far by any stretch. But with all things considered. They both measure out to be young projects that came to the league to early who the Knicks gambled on due to size, length and potential. Knox has the potential and shown flashes to carry scoring loads. Frank has the potential and shown flashes to have a complete 2-way game.

If I wanted to be petty, I could have held Knox's feet to the fire with these standards that were set all season. But I'm not going to dog out a 18-19 yr old good kid who works hard trying to figure out his way to push an agenda. The draft is a crap shoot. Knox and Frank both come off has loving the game of bball with good work ethics.

Dont believe they hand out monthly awards to rookies for being offensively challenged.
Knox has shown he can get buckets. Its about consistency, Frank hasnt shown that at all.

Frank got 20 minutes a game for most of the season, and he was coming off the bench as well. Going up mostly against second units. As you just pointed out, Knox has been playing against starters, and playing more minutes. If I wanted to be petty, I would go into detail explaining why that makes Knox's season more challenging.

Frank is one of the worst offensive players in the league, and that really hasnt changed. Knox has shown he can be a threat, his biggest limitation right now being conditioning. I expect more of a jump in year 2 from Knox than the one we saw from Frank.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks got trashed for the last player they picked in the lottery for defensive purposes. Knox has pretty much performed like a 2nd round pick. But there is no agenda after him so he can rest easy being 19 years old.

There is no proven formula to the lottery as much as people tried to make it seem that way last draft. You take players who are young and have potential. And try to weigh on how they will improve their games and weaknesses. How strong is their work ethics? Do they have high characters? Do they love and live for the game or is it just a job?

If Knox was showing the same offensively challenged game that Frank has shown since being drafted, you would hear a lot more concern. Knox was named rookie of the month for his production on offense. Not one good game, then weeks (if not months) before we see another good one. Like we saw often with Frank.

Knox doesnt look as fast as he did early in the season, looks spent. Frank got 20 minutes every game like clockwork his rookie season. Cant remember another Knicks rookie in recent memory who was treated with kid gloves the way Frank was. Was the right thing to do, given his age, new to this country, the NBA, and his lack of conditioning. Knox hasnt had that kind of consistency in his minutes, or his place in the rotation.

Other than a few nice floaters, Knox has shown to be very offensively challenged though. He is 6'9 and shoots 36% from the field. With a -.5 ast to turn over ratio. And this doesn't even get into the other aspects of the game besides scoring. He came from AAU and he played a year under a proven coach in Calipari in Kentucky. He was also drafted in the lottery. According to the arguments made last season AAU and college should have installed way more craft to his game than he has show. Being drafted in the lottery he shouldn't look like a project according to the arguments made last season.

Knox has gotten 28 mins a game and has 39 starts out of the 57 games he played so far. And not one call for Knox to see time in the G-league . Frank got 22 mins a game and 9 starts out of 78 games last season. Not to mention Frank was in like 80%+ in the positive lineups the Knicks had last season. As well as the #1 PG in PNR. Not saying Frank has had a good career so far by any stretch. But with all things considered. They both measure out to be young projects that came to the league to early who the Knicks gambled on due to size, length and potential. Knox has the potential and shown flashes to carry scoring loads. Frank has the potential and shown flashes to have a complete 2-way game.

If I wanted to be petty, I could have held Knox's feet to the fire with these standards that were set all season. But I'm not going to dog out a 18-19 yr old good kid who works hard trying to figure out his way to push an agenda. The draft is a crap shoot. Knox and Frank both come off has loving the game of bball with good work ethics.

Dont believe they hand out monthly awards to rookies for being offensively challenged.
Knox has shown he can get buckets. Its about consistency, Frank hasnt shown that at all.

Frank got 20 minutes a game for most of the season, and he was coming off the bench as well. Going up mostly against second units. As you just pointed out, Knox has been playing against starters, and playing more minutes. If I wanted to be petty, I would go into detail explaining why that makes Knox's season more challenging.

Frank is one of the worst offensive players in the league, and that really hasnt changed. Knox has shown he can be a threat, his biggest limitation right now being conditioning. I expect more of a jump in year 2 from Knox than the one we saw from Frank.

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Knicks got trashed for the last player they picked in the lottery for defensive purposes. Knox has pretty much performed like a 2nd round pick. But there is no agenda after him so he can rest easy being 19 years old.

There is no proven formula to the lottery as much as people tried to make it seem that way last draft. You take players who are young and have potential. And try to weigh on how they will improve their games and weaknesses. How strong is their work ethics? Do they have high characters? Do they love and live for the game or is it just a job?

If Knox was showing the same offensively challenged game that Frank has shown since being drafted, you would hear a lot more concern. Knox was named rookie of the month for his production on offense. Not one good game, then weeks (if not months) before we see another good one. Like we saw often with Frank.

Knox doesnt look as fast as he did early in the season, looks spent. Frank got 20 minutes every game like clockwork his rookie season. Cant remember another Knicks rookie in recent memory who was treated with kid gloves the way Frank was. Was the right thing to do, given his age, new to this country, the NBA, and his lack of conditioning. Knox hasnt had that kind of consistency in his minutes, or his place in the rotation.

Other than a few nice floaters, Knox has shown to be very offensively challenged though. He is 6'9 and shoots 36% from the field. With a -.5 ast to turn over ratio. And this doesn't even get into the other aspects of the game besides scoring. He came from AAU and he played a year under a proven coach in Calipari in Kentucky. He was also drafted in the lottery. According to the arguments made last season AAU and college should have installed way more craft to his game than he has show. Being drafted in the lottery he shouldn't look like a project according to the arguments made last season.

Knox has gotten 28 mins a game and has 39 starts out of the 57 games he played so far. And not one call for Knox to see time in the G-league . Frank got 22 mins a game and 9 starts out of 78 games last season. Not to mention Frank was in like 80%+ in the positive lineups the Knicks had last season. As well as the #1 PG in PNR. Not saying Frank has had a good career so far by any stretch. But with all things considered. They both measure out to be young projects that came to the league to early who the Knicks gambled on due to size, length and potential. Knox has the potential and shown flashes to carry scoring loads. Frank has the potential and shown flashes to have a complete 2-way game.

If I wanted to be petty, I could have held Knox's feet to the fire with these standards that were set all season. But I'm not going to dog out a 18-19 yr old good kid who works hard trying to figure out his way to push an agenda. The draft is a crap shoot. Knox and Frank both come off has loving the game of bball with good work ethics.

Dont believe they hand out monthly awards to rookies for being offensively challenged.
Knox has shown he can get buckets. Its about consistency, Frank hasnt shown that at all.

Frank got 20 minutes a game for most of the season, and he was coming off the bench as well. Going up mostly against second units. As you just pointed out, Knox has been playing against starters, and playing more minutes. If I wanted to be petty, I would go into detail explaining why that makes Knox's season more challenging.

Frank is one of the worst offensive players in the league, and that really hasnt changed. Knox has shown he can be a threat, his biggest limitation right now being conditioning. I expect more of a jump in year 2 from Knox than the one we saw from Frank.

In Frank's defense, he's shown he can do at least one thing at a good to elite level. Knox has been bad at pretty much everything. I'm not saying this to single anyone out, but to say the book is still open in both players. DSJ too. Let's just watch how things play out.

Knox has shown that he can get buckets, as a starter. Had enough big games to say that. Not a theory at this point. The question is wether or not he can eventually do it night in and night out. Believe conditioning will definitely help Knox get there.

So now you only care about a player who can get you buckets at 36%(because the knicks drafted him)..His plus/minus is almost dead last among 400+ players, i think the only person behind him is frank and someone else...

If knox was a +20, would you even care how many buckets he had, like he is a big part of why we suck. When one guy doesn't give the max effort, that starts to effect other players, and they start playing like that..It works the same way if he was giving max effort

Cartman718 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Knox in 21 min shots 66% with 11 pts. Solid rookie game. Nothing special. Thats ok.

Followed by how many games of 20-30% shooting

Cartman718 wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/dailysportsstat/status/1102983610259378177

Cartman718 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Cartman718 wrote:

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/dailysportsstat/status/1102983610259378177

I don't care if he shoots 50% overall or not. Ft frequency and three point percentages can skew that number. But he's got increase his two-point percentage, especially at the rim. That's the only way he'll be considered a pro-level scorer.

I wanted the Knicks to draft him from players available at that draft position, and I still have hope obviously at 19 that he will improve but don't want to ever hear about his fortnite forays or extra curricular activities. He's not living breathing basketball like Mitch is.

Life is complicated thing.
Go back to your 19 and tell me how serious and determined you was?
Sometimes this happened. I saw a few people like that but it is not even 0,1% of population.
Maturity is a process not an event.
Some people never mature and directly switch to dementia.
Knox and Frank are just an opportunities not NBA players.
The good think we have perfect timing to explore this opportunities.
Will they work or not is not a big deal.
We have literally nothing to lose.

arkrud wrote:Life is complicated thing.
Go back to your 19 and tell me how serious and determined you was?

In professional sports, you can process mentally at "game speed" or you cannot.

The discussion is often about "high basketball IQ" or high "sports IQ" but that generally breaks down into smaller things.

Situational Awareness - Understanding not just what you are doing on the court, but what the other guys are doing or not doing in real time, at game speed.

Decision Making - Operating against an "option tree", are you making the high percentage decision given the current matchup/situation? Much of this leans towards being able to shift your role when something else or someone else is glitching on you ( i.e. you are injured in your hand and your shooting is going to be off or you have the flu and you can't go more than 70 percent) Joe Dumars is the gold standard of this, what the Pistons needed, he adjusted and thrived and provided.

Operating In Close Contact - It's one thing to do things in an open gym or against inferior/inexperienced competition, it's another to do it against elite competition at NBA game speed. When you go to the rim, you are gonna get some hits, some hard contact, how do you adjust/counter adjust based on your experience against that defender, what you've seen on game film, scouting reports, your assessment in game of them. This is where things like MMA/Boxing provides a better example. Working "angles" and operating in and out of close contact, how you make space, use space and close ground and take away someone elses position from them. Some players innately can do this on instinct ( ****ing Chris Mullin was on another level at snail speed) but most have to process this at game speed. It's a "chess game" that shifts moment by moment.

Long story short, the troubling issue with Knox is he's a bad decision maker. Building strength and getting experience and learning how to work the refs and handling the NBA grind, those are all factors. But even as a rookie player, your decision making starts to show it's roots in games and at game speed.

He's not as good as he was in the preseason when some here were claiming he'd be ROTY. He's not as bad as he's showing now. He's been overexposed for minutes because it's a bad roster right now. The truth is probably in the middle.

You generally don't become a good decision maker when you've shown you are a bad one. Often times it's other factors. Someone here will eventually point out Billups. OK, Billups was a ****ing rapist. He spent a long portion of his early career worrying if he was going to spend his life in jail. However on the court, even as a rookie, you could see shades of good decision making on the court.

I would have preferred SGA and/or Mikal Bridges, I said so back before the draft, but let's give Knox three seasons to see what he will become. Let's hope for the best. He's a chucker because he doesn't know what else to do, it's overwhelming him right now. It's like a new boxer flailing his arms wildly and punching at nothing against a seasoned fighter.

His age is not a factor against his level of experience. Once he's got three years in the league, who gives a **** if he's 21/22, once you clock enough minutes and starts, you've established 90 percent of what you will likely be the rest of your career.

At this level, you need more than just physical pedigree. You need to be able to process what's going on around you at game speed. To be fair, this is hard as ****. What I considered an excellent flawless play at the college level on the line was considered the normal average routine play at the pro level. I carpooled with a guy in my draft class and after our first ever practice, he threw up in my car. Much of the transition to this kind of battering is mental. My margin of error was basically nothing. Knox's margin of error is basically nothing at this level. For guys like this, you need to simplify the game for them. Like Bruce Lee says, don't fear a man who knows 10,000 types of kicks, fear the man who knows one kick, but has practiced it 10,000 times.

At this point, the big concern should be injury. Past the rookie wall, at this level of attrition, you risk injuring a young player by shoving minutes down his throat.

Nalod wrote:

If knox was a +20, would you even care how many buckets he had, like he is a big part of why we suck. When one guy doesn't give the max effort, that starts to effect other players, and they start playing like that..It works the same way if he was giving max effort

Rainmans Own "Word Salad"

I know I get on some posters nerves. Sometimes its about BBall, sometimes its about politics.
If you have posted on this board long enough, its happened to you too.

Im guessing that most of the regular posters here are at least in their 40s. We can challenge posters we dont agree with, without giving them a nickname IMO.