Mudiay deserves a raise, but I doubt the Knicks can afford it. Get the feeling Mudiay would rather sign somewhere he has a legit chance to fight for a starting job. With all the changes coming, doubt its in NY.

Would like to see Kadeem Allen brought back for an extended look. Probably a less expensive option as a backup PG, if he pans out. Putting aside who would fill two max slots, Knicks will need to find bargains, cost effective players, to fill out the roster. Believe that Mudiay will be out of our price range, if he keeps playing at this level.

GustavBahler wrote:Mudiay has become a better player since joining the Knicks. Put in the work to get better. Might not have improved as much as some would like, hard to say that he isnt playing better. Worked on his mechanics.

Mudiay deserves a raise, but I doubt the Knicks can afford it. Get the feeling Mudiay would rather sign somewhere he has a legit chance to fight for a starting job. With all the changes coming, doubt its in NY.

Would like to see Kadeem Allen brought back for an extended look. Probably a less expensive option as a backup PG, if he pans out. Putting aside who would fill two max slots, Knicks will need to find bargains, cost effective players, to fill out the roster. Believe that Mudiay will be out of our price range, if he keeps playing at this level.

I suppose its all a fans perspective as expectations. If you look at the box score and it was another team one might be impressed. Given the frequency this team has been losing games his improvement is not worthy of consideration of "Most improved?" Top 10? 5? This is a kid who was quickly falling out of the league. He is not an falling star as he never earned one and done status at college.

Does this make me a fan boy? No. Does he deserve "Baker" type money? Yeah. His cap hold here is like 12mil, is that correct? if so, he is gone. He has earned a raise and earned a spot on an NBA team. He can still continue to improve. Is he a simple reboot of Brandon Jennings? Maybe. On the Cusp but not quite there?
For all the above he is not a good fit here but Kudo's to him and coaching staff for getting this kid to rise up. This kid is 22 and built like a truck. Looks like an older version of Oscar Robertson. Not talent, his build.
Price wise I'd rather continue to invest in Frank. Lets not forget Franks scouting reports and he is holding true to them.

VCoug wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:will he play for the vet min? Thats the only way I sign him

What is the vet min next season? Like 1 mil?

I want 2 Max Free Agents and im not using a cent of extra cap space for Mudiay. If we get 2 Max free agents there will be much better vet options with remaining space.

All this tells me is when we strike out in FA Im going to have people telling me his 4 year 60 million dollar deal isnt that bad. It will be Hardaway Jr. all over again.

OMG, please no. I can't take anymore of Mudiay and his weird defenders this season. If we re-sign him my head might explode.

Weird defenders? What is your opinion of Frank's game?

VCoug wrote:

Uptown wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:will he play for the vet min? Thats the only way I sign him

What is the vet min next season? Like 1 mil?

I want 2 Max Free Agents and im not using a cent of extra cap space for Mudiay. If we get 2 Max free agents there will be much better vet options with remaining space.

All this tells me is when we strike out in FA Im going to have people telling me his 4 year 60 million dollar deal isnt that bad. It will be Hardaway Jr. all over again.

OMG, please no. I can't take anymore of Mudiay and his weird defenders this season. If we re-sign him my head might explode.

Weird defenders? What is your opinion of Frank's game?

Frank has not demonstrated any NBA skills whatsoever. I've no idea what others see in him. Even his defense is overrated and seems to have taken a step back this season. The only positive things I can say about Ntilikina are that he's a willing passer (though his passes don't tend to serve much purpose and don't put other players in a position to succeed) and he has a cheap contract and is under team control for two more years. Is Mudiay better than Frank? Sure, but being better than one of the worst players in the league isn't an accomplishment. Mudiay's still terrible in his own right and I have no desire to see him return to the team once he hits free agency. Let some other team overpay for the right to hope that Mudiay can make the huge leap from ****ing bad to average.

We don't have a ton of options you know, the knicks will end up paying through the nose for back ups worse than MUD

Jeremy Lin
TJ McConnell
Elfrid Payton
Patrick Beverley
Jeff Teague
Rajon Rondo
Isaiah Thomas
Terry Rozier..starter
Ricky Rubio
Malcolm Brogdon-restricted
Goran Dragic- players option
Derrick Rose..starter
Eric Bledsoe..starter

and the obvious top 3, kemba, kyrie, russell..

Mudiay will have incentive to re-sign here as well for a below-market value contract to stay with Fiz another year and solidify his status as NBA-quality starting PG - and perhaps move up the ranks from a lower tier starter to mid-tier. I'm not crazy about him, but he's been far more consistent this year than ever before.

His somewhat lower assists speak to the positionless NBA and the need for PGs to control the ball less and keep the ball moving.

As a (cheap) alternative, Kadeem Allen might be a cheaper and arguably more polished option. At the ripe old age of 26, he's a more finished product. While he doesn't have the potential "star" upside of Mudiay, his floor as a floor general is already higher, as he's a notably better defender and seemingly solid 3pt shooter (37% in the G-league).

VCoug wrote:

Uptown wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:will he play for the vet min? Thats the only way I sign him

What is the vet min next season? Like 1 mil?

I want 2 Max Free Agents and im not using a cent of extra cap space for Mudiay. If we get 2 Max free agents there will be much better vet options with remaining space.

All this tells me is when we strike out in FA Im going to have people telling me his 4 year 60 million dollar deal isnt that bad. It will be Hardaway Jr. all over again.

OMG, please no. I can't take anymore of Mudiay and his weird defenders this season. If we re-sign him my head might explode.

Weird defenders? What is your opinion of Frank's game?

Frank has not demonstrated any NBA skills whatsoever. I've no idea what others see in him. Even his defense is overrated and seems to have taken a step back this season. The only positive things I can say about Ntilikina are that he's a willing passer (though his passes don't tend to serve much purpose and don't put other players in a position to succeed) and he has a cheap contract and is under team control for two more years. Is Mudiay better than Frank? Sure, but being better than one of the worst players in the league isn't an accomplishment. Mudiay's still terrible in his own right and I have no desire to see him return to the team once he hits free agency. Let some other team overpay for the right to hope that Mudiay can make the huge leap from ****ing bad to average.

Got it....Most of the people on this board that bash Mudiay are avid Frank supporters..I disagree that Mudiay sucks but it seems like there ain't any bias in your opinion of Mudiay so props for that.

knicks1248 wrote:Some of you are soooooooo bias, you criticize players who are not home grown. The same people who want mudiay gone are the same ones who have frank in every line up as the pg (either starting or off the bench) and he's 5x worse.

You do the same with Knox, you criticize (non knick draftees/players) for being black holes, tunnel vision, selfish players, then clap and pump your fist after knox shoots 3-17 and 1 assist, then use his age as an excuse not to pass the damn ball.

Mudiay is going to be in the second or third wave of FA, but i dont see nothing wrong with him being a back up to DSJ, he's a much better option in frank, who i think will be traded anyway, and his far from being an actual NBA PG

This is true

VCoug wrote:

Chandler wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Uptown wrote:

VCoug wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

ramtour420 wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:will he play for the vet min? Thats the only way I sign him

What is the vet min next season? Like 1 mil?

I want 2 Max Free Agents and im not using a cent of extra cap space for Mudiay. If we get 2 Max free agents there will be much better vet options with remaining space.

All this tells me is when we strike out in FA Im going to have people telling me his 4 year 60 million dollar deal isnt that bad. It will be Hardaway Jr. all over again.

OMG, please no. I can't take anymore of Mudiay and his weird defenders this season. If we re-sign him my head might explode.

Weird defenders? What is your opinion of Frank's game?

Frank has not demonstrated any NBA skills whatsoever. I've no idea what others see in him. Even his defense is overrated and seems to have taken a step back this season. The only positive things I can say about Ntilikina are that he's a willing passer (though his passes don't tend to serve much purpose and don't put other players in a position to succeed) and he has a cheap contract and is under team control for two more years. Is Mudiay better than Frank? Sure, but being better than one of the worst players in the league isn't an accomplishment. Mudiay's still terrible in his own right and I have no desire to see him return to the team once he hits free agency. Let some other team overpay for the right to hope that Mudiay can make the huge leap from ****ing bad to average.

I'll contest the issue about his defense taking a step back this season. This year he guarded twos and threes more mitigating his length advantage -- dumb idea in my opinion. For all the talk about developing players, I think the team gets at best a C and probably an F for how they have handled Frank this year.

I haven't seen any development from anyone. THJr, Kanter, Burke, Baker, Hezonja, and Ntilikina all either looked the same as always or even got worse this year. Vonleh looked good for a couple of months but he's fallen off a cliff since the new year and looks like the same player he always has. Literally all of Mudiay's "improvement" has come from the mid-range. Knox hasn't improved at all throughout the season and doesn't even look like an NBA player. The only young players I see as an obvious success so far are Robinson and Trier both of whom were good the minute they stepped on an NBA court.

10000% true...

technomaster wrote:Here's how I see our 3 PGs at the moment.

Frank's floor is Andre Roberson. That's if he can't learn to shoot or play PG. That still means he's worth of a 25mpg role on a strong playoff team with a big contract.

Upside: Long armed defender with team skills
* Nate McMillan and Nic Batum if he becomes a passable shooter, ball handler, and can play some PG, but for the most part remains passive.
* Evan Turner if he becomes a capable ball handler and can play some PG. (shooting doesn't develop)
* Tayshaun Prince if he can shoot/finish passably, but never becomes a capable PG.

Mudiay's floor is himself the first few years of career. Erratic player that can't shoot. Michael Carter Williams.

Upside: solid all-around offensive player, solid NBA starting PG, minutes eater. Won't put fear into other coaches, but will steadily contribute stats.
* Malcolm Brogdon (a 3rd year player at the ripe old age of 26) - contributes solid stats in a team concept.
* Tyreke Evans with a better jump shot
* Mike Conley - generally unspectacular but steady floor general that periodically puts up big numbers.
* Perhaps Doc Rivers?!
* I guess it's time we rule out Jason Kidd/John Wall - he doesn't have the motor/quickness/defense.

DSJ's floor is Shannon Brown or Keyon Dooling if he doesn't continue to grow as a floor general. Dooling was touted as the next Baron Davis, killer athleticism and basic skills, but never got it all together in the NBA. We've seen even in our short time with him this year that he has surpassed the best of both of these guys.

Upside: elite offensive PG, fantasy basketball star, perennial all-star candidate. Not sure about defensive impact, but a feared offensive player that can go off for 20-30ppg if you don't put together a game plan to slow him down.
* Baron Davis
* Steve Francis
* Stephon Marbury
* John Wall/Derrick Rose/Russell Westbrook (all of these guys have exceptionally long arms, but he has similar athleticism - DSJ has average wingspan like Kyrie)

Ntilikina's floor can't be Roberson because he's currently a much worse player than Roberson. Ntilikina has not shot over 40% from two in either year so far; Roberson has never shot under 56% from 2 and has only shot under 60% his rookie year. Ntilikina is a better 3PT shooter than Roberson but since he isn't actually good at shooting 3s I don't think it really makes a difference. On top of that, Roberson has consistently put up better STL% and BLK% than Ntilikina has so far. Frank's offense currently makes him basically unplayable on a good team and his defense is nowhere nearly enough to make up for it. I'd say his floor is "potentially out of the league after his rookie contract".

VCoug wrote:

technomaster wrote:Here's how I see our 3 PGs at the moment.

Frank's floor is Andre Roberson. That's if he can't learn to shoot or play PG. That still means he's worth of a 25mpg role on a strong playoff team with a big contract.

Upside: Long armed defender with team skills
* Nate McMillan and Nic Batum if he becomes a passable shooter, ball handler, and can play some PG, but for the most part remains passive.
* Evan Turner if he becomes a capable ball handler and can play some PG. (shooting doesn't develop)
* Tayshaun Prince if he can shoot/finish passably, but never becomes a capable PG.

Mudiay's floor is himself the first few years of career. Erratic player that can't shoot. Michael Carter Williams.

Upside: solid all-around offensive player, solid NBA starting PG, minutes eater. Won't put fear into other coaches, but will steadily contribute stats.
* Malcolm Brogdon (a 3rd year player at the ripe old age of 26) - contributes solid stats in a team concept.
* Tyreke Evans with a better jump shot
* Mike Conley - generally unspectacular but steady floor general that periodically puts up big numbers.
* Perhaps Doc Rivers?!
* I guess it's time we rule out Jason Kidd/John Wall - he doesn't have the motor/quickness/defense.

DSJ's floor is Shannon Brown or Keyon Dooling if he doesn't continue to grow as a floor general. Dooling was touted as the next Baron Davis, killer athleticism and basic skills, but never got it all together in the NBA. We've seen even in our short time with him this year that he has surpassed the best of both of these guys.

Upside: elite offensive PG, fantasy basketball star, perennial all-star candidate. Not sure about defensive impact, but a feared offensive player that can go off for 20-30ppg if you don't put together a game plan to slow him down.
* Baron Davis
* Steve Francis
* Stephon Marbury
* John Wall/Derrick Rose/Russell Westbrook (all of these guys have exceptionally long arms, but he has similar athleticism - DSJ has average wingspan like Kyrie)

Ntilikina's floor can't be Roberson because he's currently a much worse player than Roberson. Ntilikina has not shot over 40% from two in either year so far; Roberson has never shot under 56% from 2 and has only shot under 60% his rookie year. Ntilikina is a better 3PT shooter than Roberson but since he isn't actually good at shooting 3s I don't think it really makes a difference. On top of that, Roberson has consistently put up better STL% and BLK% than Ntilikina has so far. Frank's offense currently makes him basically unplayable on a good team and his defense is nowhere nearly enough to make up for it. I'd say his floor is "potentially out of the league after his rookie contract".

With few exceptions the NBA players can be truly evaluated not earlier that 21-22 years old.
Some even take longer but it usually clear after 22 what young player can achieve.
Frank need 1-2 more seasons to develop. And this is the purpose of his contract.