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Might be time to trade Frank (along with Lee)
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jrodmc
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1/2/2019  1:12 PM
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:When I speculate about trading players there's a goal in mind.

Given the sheer volume of flotsam on this team, players who have no true role to play here - why would Frankie ever be mentioned?

Is the goal to win games [and diminish lottery chances]? NO? Then what's the complaint that a 20 year old kid - immature, developing KID - isn't satisfying your unrealistic expectations?

WHAT oh what would be the point of trading Frankie? To give more minutes to, say, Burke? Because our defense isn't bad enough?

Or maybe you like to count cap space dollars that score no points, play no defense, assist no player... - just feel like you're going to sign - SIGH! - Durant, LeBron,... NO, Basketball Jesus! YES, SOMEDAY that will happen.

Frankie's destined to be a star in this league. He's two year's away. Two seasons of FA speculation about players who will never be signed and would have no positive impact if they were. If Frankie survives the lunatics we stand a chance at competing two years out. having watched the toxicity of NY sports, my guess is that we'll be rebuilding yet again in two years while Frankie is winning a ring elsewhere.

This was the NBA tweet of the day

While some general managers don’t fully embrace the Real Adjusted Plus-Minus stat introduced in 2014, Knox is ranked No. 463 out of 464 players. Frank Ntilikina comes in at 461.

I get the whole (RUDY RUDY RUDY) feel good pulling-for-the-underdog story, but reality is reality..

I like knox, but there's no way on earth he should be starting, but on this roster.... perhaps.


I guess these 2 complement each other ONE GUY NEVER SHOOTS AND PASSES TOO MUCH, THE OTHER SHOOTS TOO MUCH AND NEVER PASSES THE BALL AT all..lol

You are looking for 2 kinder-gardeners to pass the SAT from first try. Good luck with it.

Only on the Knicks could top 10 first round draft picks be considered NBA kinder-gardeners.
And one of the kinder-gardeners is actually having his second attempt at the SAT...

AUTOADVERT
jskinny35
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1/2/2019  2:46 PM
I think while it's hard to predict exactly - we have to envision these players fitting into a system with KP. That could totally change the value and performance of many of these bit players we have. Right now we have guys like Mud, Hardaway Jr and Knox trying to score points to keep us competitive. They are in roles that are too much for them. If Mud is your leading scorer (or Hardaway) - you're not a good team. If Mud and Hardaway are giving you 15-16 points and KP is giving us 23-24 - the points and shots are going to be different. Hardaways will be kick out 3's instead of isolating drives and Mud can be aggressive but not force things as much. Not saying that all the pieces will fit together, but we have to remember these guys are all developing and there is not stable presence on the court yet. Hopefully KP recovers fully and is that player for us. If so, think we could drastically improve next year. Vonleh next to KP, with Mitch and Kornet off the bench - lotta potential there. We draft a decent PG and Mud becomes a 3rd guard. Have Dotson, Trier - lots of talent that needs someone to play off well. Otherwise it's just spare shiny parts that are inconsistent...
newyorknewyork
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1/2/2019  4:26 PM
jskinny35 wrote:I think while it's hard to predict exactly - we have to envision these players fitting into a system with KP. That could totally change the value and performance of many of these bit players we have. Right now we have guys like Mud, Hardaway Jr and Knox trying to score points to keep us competitive. They are in roles that are too much for them. If Mud is your leading scorer (or Hardaway) - you're not a good team. If Mud and Hardaway are giving you 15-16 points and KP is giving us 23-24 - the points and shots are going to be different. Hardaways will be kick out 3's instead of isolating drives and Mud can be aggressive but not force things as much. Not saying that all the pieces will fit together, but we have to remember these guys are all developing and there is not stable presence on the court yet. Hopefully KP recovers fully and is that player for us. If so, think we could drastically improve next year. Vonleh next to KP, with Mitch and Kornet off the bench - lotta potential there. We draft a decent PG and Mud becomes a 3rd guard. Have Dotson, Trier - lots of talent that needs someone to play off well. Otherwise it's just spare shiny parts that are inconsistent...

The issue will be. With sharing the scoring load, in order to really be effective. You would also need to do a ton of other little things while the ball isn't in your hands. So if Hardaway scores less point but isn't a strong defender or playmaker then he is pretty much a bench gunner on a winning team. He isn't an atheltic freak and he isn't a long oversized physically imposing player. So the best way for Hardaway to get the most out of his ability would be to create for others and generate assist. Mold himself into an Ingles type of player from Utah.

He's hustling backwards by trying to be a hero. But he doesn't have the physical advantages or elite skill level. But he has shown he can pass well when he puts his mind to it. And Hardaway putting up like 4.5 ast as a 3rd option would be Hardaway Jr on a winning team.

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nyknickzingis
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1/2/2019  7:04 PM
I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.
franco12
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1/2/2019  8:53 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

nyknickzingis
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1/3/2019  6:38 AM
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.


Of course I'd rather have KD over Frank.
But if KD is coming, we can make this move once he commits. We could stretch Lee. He would be in the final year of his contract. The cap hit is only 4M. Frank can get dealt to a team with space that wants a young player to develop. Straight up salary dump.

It's not hard to do those things if you have a superstar waiting to sign.

knicks1248
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1/3/2019  8:40 AM
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

ES
franco12
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1/3/2019  8:49 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

here I am thinking of Mudiay who might be able to realize his potential - sure, we've been bad without KP, but with him, we'd be 500.

It's ok if you don't believe that. It's a subjective judgement to say we'd have won games (like Denver) with KP vs. without.

knicks1248
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1/3/2019  10:15 AM
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

here I am thinking of Mudiay who might be able to realize his potential - sure, we've been bad without KP, but with him, we'd be 500.

It's ok if you don't believe that. It's a subjective judgement to say we'd have won games (like Denver) with KP vs. without.

perhaps, but the down fall started right before he got hurt(4 game losing streak).

We are bad because this roster doesn't fit, we got ISO players, No defense players, slow players, fast players, guys who can't pass, guys who pass too much, players that are too young..and nobody is really good at anything..

Mudiay, trier, knox..thats all i want to keep

I'm on the fence about THJ, and Mitch..like mitch, but he has no perimeter game at all,thats not good in this ERA, and I can't live with THJ being more than a 6th man or 3rd option..

ES
blkexec
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1/3/2019  11:11 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

here I am thinking of Mudiay who might be able to realize his potential - sure, we've been bad without KP, but with him, we'd be 500.

It's ok if you don't believe that. It's a subjective judgement to say we'd have won games (like Denver) with KP vs. without.

perhaps, but the down fall started right before he got hurt(4 game losing streak).

We are bad because this roster doesn't fit, we got ISO players, No defense players, slow players, fast players, guys who can't pass, guys who pass too much, players that are too young..and nobody is really good at anything..

Mudiay, trier, knox..thats all i want to keep

I'm on the fence about THJ, and Mitch..like mitch, but he has no perimeter game at all,thats not good in this ERA, and I can't live with THJ being more than a 6th man or 3rd option..

I've seen Mitch in person b4 he was drafted....when training for the draft. He definitely has an outside game so his potential is there. I think coaches and mentors are telling him to focus on your strengths right now....Since his strengths is a need for us, he will be more valuable early in his career. Overtime he will develop those other skills and confidence. His off season workout partner is AD. The question is always the same....Will NY have enough patience and room to grow these guys. Based on the passed, the answer is no. Let's hope that culture has changed with this new regime.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
nykshaknbake
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1/3/2019  12:32 PM
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

Think the stats show that KP shoots a significantly lower %age when with Frank. The defender being able to say off Frank into KP overcomes Frank dumping the ball to KP.

nykshaknbake
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1/3/2019  12:38 PM
blkexec wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

here I am thinking of Mudiay who might be able to realize his potential - sure, we've been bad without KP, but with him, we'd be 500.

It's ok if you don't believe that. It's a subjective judgement to say we'd have won games (like Denver) with KP vs. without.

perhaps, but the down fall started right before he got hurt(4 game losing streak).

We are bad because this roster doesn't fit, we got ISO players, No defense players, slow players, fast players, guys who can't pass, guys who pass too much, players that are too young..and nobody is really good at anything..

Mudiay, trier, knox..thats all i want to keep

I'm on the fence about THJ, and Mitch..like mitch, but he has no perimeter game at all,thats not good in this ERA, and I can't live with THJ being more than a 6th man or 3rd option..

I've seen Mitch in person b4 he was drafted....when training for the draft. He definitely has an outside game so his potential is there. I think coaches and mentors are telling him to focus on your strengths right now....Since his strengths is a need for us, he will be more valuable early in his career. Overtime he will develop those other skills and confidence. His off season workout partner is AD. The question is always the same....Will NY have enough patience and room to grow these guys. Based on the passed, the answer is no. Let's hope that culture has changed with this new regime.


I'd add Vonleh to the list. Defends, rebounds hits the 3. Dude fits on any team or system. You keep Frank because he defends and you won't get anything for him. Just have to be patient and hope. He doesnt hurt the cap.
knicks1248
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1/3/2019  1:11 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:
blkexec wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

here I am thinking of Mudiay who might be able to realize his potential - sure, we've been bad without KP, but with him, we'd be 500.

It's ok if you don't believe that. It's a subjective judgement to say we'd have won games (like Denver) with KP vs. without.

perhaps, but the down fall started right before he got hurt(4 game losing streak).

We are bad because this roster doesn't fit, we got ISO players, No defense players, slow players, fast players, guys who can't pass, guys who pass too much, players that are too young..and nobody is really good at anything..

Mudiay, trier, knox..thats all i want to keep

I'm on the fence about THJ, and Mitch..like mitch, but he has no perimeter game at all,thats not good in this ERA, and I can't live with THJ being more than a 6th man or 3rd option..

I've seen Mitch in person b4 he was drafted....when training for the draft. He definitely has an outside game so his potential is there. I think coaches and mentors are telling him to focus on your strengths right now....Since his strengths is a need for us, he will be more valuable early in his career. Overtime he will develop those other skills and confidence. His off season workout partner is AD. The question is always the same....Will NY have enough patience and room to grow these guys. Based on the passed, the answer is no. Let's hope that culture has changed with this new regime.


I'd add Vonleh to the list. Defends, rebounds hits the 3. Dude fits on any team or system. You keep Frank because he defends and you won't get anything for him. Just have to be patient and hope. He doesnt hurt the cap.

vonleh is a cool back up, and cheap to..

ES
arkrud
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1/3/2019  1:21 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:
blkexec wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
franco12 wrote:
nyknickzingis wrote:I don't know why, but I still think Frank will be a great fit next to Porzingis. He looks to pass to the big man, he looks to shoot the open kick out and a Porzingis/Frank pick and roll defense combo can be very good. I think we should give them a season together before we give up on Frank. Frank will be just 21 next season.

would you rather have Frank and KP or KD & KP?

I think we need to clear some cap to get KD and not gut the roster.

a roster that has gone 14-52 with out KP..by far the worse record in the league since 2/6/18

yeah lets keep those productive player...

here I am thinking of Mudiay who might be able to realize his potential - sure, we've been bad without KP, but with him, we'd be 500.

It's ok if you don't believe that. It's a subjective judgement to say we'd have won games (like Denver) with KP vs. without.

perhaps, but the down fall started right before he got hurt(4 game losing streak).

We are bad because this roster doesn't fit, we got ISO players, No defense players, slow players, fast players, guys who can't pass, guys who pass too much, players that are too young..and nobody is really good at anything..

Mudiay, trier, knox..thats all i want to keep

I'm on the fence about THJ, and Mitch..like mitch, but he has no perimeter game at all,thats not good in this ERA, and I can't live with THJ being more than a 6th man or 3rd option..

I've seen Mitch in person b4 he was drafted....when training for the draft. He definitely has an outside game so his potential is there. I think coaches and mentors are telling him to focus on your strengths right now....Since his strengths is a need for us, he will be more valuable early in his career. Overtime he will develop those other skills and confidence. His off season workout partner is AD. The question is always the same....Will NY have enough patience and room to grow these guys. Based on the passed, the answer is no. Let's hope that culture has changed with this new regime.


I'd add Vonleh to the list. Defends, rebounds hits the 3. Dude fits on any team or system. You keep Frank because he defends and you won't get anything for him. Just have to be patient and hope. He doesnt hurt the cap.

Knicks front office put themselves in very nice position when they are forced to do the right things.
The players we have and want to retain for this reason or another are not in demand.
There is no way we can patch this thing to make it even a shade of competitive.
Long and comprehensive rebuild is the ONLY option available and this is great thing.
Knowledgeable Knicks fans were waiting for this already for a lifetime.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet
blkexec
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1/3/2019  3:53 PM
Trading Frank now is not smart....His value is at an all time low. But Dennis Smith is on the trading block.....Someone I thought we shouldve drafted at the time. I've come down since then. But Dallas putting him on the trading block is a smart move with his stock at a high right now. That's the kind of trades we should look for. Mudiay is a great example of selling high....

But the option of not trading anybody is always a decent option....especially if hes part of the long term plan. Right now I dont think Fizdale knows who we should keep. Would love to see how KP looks and how he will impact others.

Born in Brooklyn, Raised in Queens, Lives in Maryland. The future is bright, I'm a Knicks fan for life!
fwk00
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1/3/2019  9:20 PM
blkexec wrote:Trading Frank now is not smart....His value is at an all time low. But Dennis Smith is on the trading block.....Someone I thought we shouldve drafted at the time. I've come down since then. But Dallas putting him on the trading block is a smart move with his stock at a high right now. That's the kind of trades we should look for. Mudiay is a great example of selling high....

But the option of not trading anybody is always a decent option....especially if hes part of the long term plan. Right now I dont think Fizdale knows who we should keep. Would love to see how KP looks and how he will impact others.

What we know about teams that win is that the core players are kept together for years through thick and thin allowing the necessary chemistry to gel.

Trading Frank serves no purpose whatsoever. He won't lose value over time.

OTOH, if the Knicks get overwhelming offers for Dotson or Kornet, you listen and weigh the offer. Both will be very good. Is what is offered better? [and it has to be or you hang up].

knicks1248
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1/3/2019  9:38 PM
fwk00 wrote:
blkexec wrote:Trading Frank now is not smart....His value is at an all time low. But Dennis Smith is on the trading block.....Someone I thought we shouldve drafted at the time. I've come down since then. But Dallas putting him on the trading block is a smart move with his stock at a high right now. That's the kind of trades we should look for. Mudiay is a great example of selling high....

But the option of not trading anybody is always a decent option....especially if hes part of the long term plan. Right now I dont think Fizdale knows who we should keep. Would love to see how KP looks and how he will impact others.

What we know about teams that win is that the core players are kept together for years through thick and thin allowing the necessary chemistry to gel.

Trading Frank serves no purpose whatsoever. He won't lose value over time.

OTOH, if the Knicks get overwhelming offers for Dotson or Kornet, you listen and weigh the offer. Both will be very good. Is what is offered better? [and it has to be or you hang up].

This would have been the move right here

Gambadoro later reported on the air during Friday’s episode of Burns & Gambo that all it would take for the Suns to obtain Ntilikina was offering up the future first-round pick from Milwaukee. This pick acquired from the Eric Bledsoe trade likely wouldn’t convey until 2020, and in all likelihood it will be a pick between the 25-30 range with the way they’re currently set up around Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Throw in a salary like Dragan Bender or Troy Daniels with the pick, then it sounds like it would be a done deal from the Knicks’ point of view as they look to clear cap space to not only sign Kevin Durant but also bring another name with him to pair next to Kristaps Porzingis.

Personally, I would do this deal even over one like Markelle Fultz. The reason being is due to Ntilkina’s fit next to Devin Booker between now and 2020. Ntilikina has the ideal frame, including an eye-popping 7’1” wingspan, to play combo guard with Booker while also setting up the likes of Deandre Ayton, Mikal Bridges, T.J. Warren, and Josh Jackson when playmaking opportunities are presented.

I would have done this trade in a heartbeat..

That would be a better fit for frank with booker and Ayton, as opposed to any body on the knicks. We could clear cap, get another 1st rnd that we can package to move up or out of the draft for a key piece, thats ready to play with KP, and who ever FA they signed.

But of course were going to wait until is Value is at rock bottom then waive him cut him, or get a second rounder...

ES
fwk00
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1/3/2019  9:59 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
fwk00 wrote:
blkexec wrote:Trading Frank now is not smart....His value is at an all time low. But Dennis Smith is on the trading block.....Someone I thought we shouldve drafted at the time. I've come down since then. But Dallas putting him on the trading block is a smart move with his stock at a high right now. That's the kind of trades we should look for. Mudiay is a great example of selling high....

But the option of not trading anybody is always a decent option....especially if hes part of the long term plan. Right now I dont think Fizdale knows who we should keep. Would love to see how KP looks and how he will impact others.

What we know about teams that win is that the core players are kept together for years through thick and thin allowing the necessary chemistry to gel.

Trading Frank serves no purpose whatsoever. He won't lose value over time.

OTOH, if the Knicks get overwhelming offers for Dotson or Kornet, you listen and weigh the offer. Both will be very good. Is what is offered better? [and it has to be or you hang up].

This would have been the move right here

Gambadoro later reported on the air during Friday’s episode of Burns & Gambo that all it would take for the Suns to obtain Ntilikina was offering up the future first-round pick from Milwaukee. This pick acquired from the Eric Bledsoe trade likely wouldn’t convey until 2020, and in all likelihood it will be a pick between the 25-30 range with the way they’re currently set up around Giannis Antetokounmpo.

Throw in a salary like Dragan Bender or Troy Daniels with the pick, then it sounds like it would be a done deal from the Knicks’ point of view as they look to clear cap space to not only sign Kevin Durant but also bring another name with him to pair next to Kristaps Porzingis.

Personally, I would do this deal even over one like Markelle Fultz. The reason being is due to Ntilkina’s fit next to Devin Booker between now and 2020. Ntilikina has the ideal frame, including an eye-popping 7’1” wingspan, to play combo guard with Booker while also setting up the likes of Deandre Ayton, Mikal Bridges, T.J. Warren, and Josh Jackson when playmaking opportunities are presented.

I would have done this trade in a heartbeat..

That would be a better fit for frank with booker and Ayton, as opposed to any body on the knicks. We could clear cap, get another 1st rnd that we can package to move up or out of the draft for a key piece, thats ready to play with KP, and who ever FA they signed.

But of course were going to wait until is Value is at rock bottom then waive him cut him, or get a second rounder...

I don't understand your logic at all. A pick in the late 20's [maybe 30] is extremely high risk to begin with. Why would you trade potential like Frankie for that? Senseless. Cap space???? Huh?

Look,Frankie should not be untouchable by any means but you have to be getting a top 5 pick in return or a truly talented two way player who for fiscal reasons is impossible for the trading team to keep.

Might be time to trade Frank (along with Lee)

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