Jmpasq wrote:Do you think our timeline is all screwed up now with Porzingis getting maxed? Now we are foeced to push the envelope or he pushes his way out the door. We will lose a chance at worthwile compensation for him. As much as I would like to believe we are going to pull out of this we are still paying for past mistakes. I'm worried this stupid ass franchise will give Mudiay a 4 year 60 million dollar deal.

If you mean a situation like Orlando and Dwight Howard ( i.e. where the risk of losing the "franchise player" meant the GM in place, trying to save his own job, would make bad market based decisions in trades, to try to appease the player to stay out of desperation, then it's entirely possible that might happen.

The most openly dangerous of those scenarios is John Wall. It wouldn't take much to get him, the Knicks are a cash rich team in general ( i.e. luxury/repeater tax considerations), he and Zinger would get this team to the playoffs every year, and just that alone might convince Zinger to stay and resign a max.

Of course, the most ideal situation was the OKC Thunder, four young guys who broke out together on staggered rookie deals.

I think the injuries sort of mitigate the situation both ways. Zinger is going to be more prone to look towards long term security. That he hasn't truly broken out because of said injuries means his leverage to hold a franchise hostage ( like D Howard who took the Magic to a Finals run) is not as strong. The injuries also create a large soft cover with the media if the Knicks end up trading him if out of other options.

I don't think any practical timeline issues are at risk here over Zinger's possible demand for a trade down the road. Or demand to leverage himself as LeGM type. The issues are already in place from the Hardaway/Noah contracts. If the goal is to contend and build a consistent contender, you need a really really clean cap sheet. In this regard, I don't think the Knicks can do that given the current situation. I do think however if the goal is to dig out a fun team to watch that fans love and can enjoy ( think Suns SSOL under Pringles, never going to win a ring, but fun to watch and will make the playoffs consistently), then this is still entirely possible with the current situation. And that's not such a horrible consolation prize in the end.

Given how many "elite" guys are being traded now, and the reality of supermaxes like Wall and Griffin going to blow up in the faces of many teams, I don't think Zinger really has too much leverage to demand certain quick fixes to the roster. I've been to a few Sloan Sports Conferences, one year, they had a former NBA GM there, and he was pretty candid informally. He said it's the kind of job where you know you will be fired one day no matter what you do, so if you are gonna get fired anyway, you might as well do what you think is right to build the team in a way you believe in. After what happened with Hinkie, my take is more of the progressive GMs will take this approach. Former players like Otis Smith and Chris Mullin, who networked their way in to the front office, are going to be more likely to make the desperate move, they don't have the deep skill set to actually function as a GM, and see the role as a one shot deal. Guys like Perry or Rich Cho are an entirely different situation. They'll get another chance because they actually understand how to do the job.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The Idea that the Knicks have KP in their back pocket and he's sure to get a max deal is BS.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

This post is as coherent as a smocking gun.

Did I do that right?

To a person who roots for loses and spends his time counting down the days to the draft, of course you couldn't fathom this happening.

I guess you have full confidence in management base on their glowing track record

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The Idea that the Knicks have KP in their back pocket and he's sure to get a max deal is BS.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

This post is as coherent as a smocking gun.

Did I do that right?

Maybe we end up drafting our own Kemba, Kyrie, KD 🤷

That, and sign a top notch FA!!!! Why not both?
Winning is not a prerequisite, its the afterglow.

Knicks1248, if we sign one of those three will you go away?

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The Idea that the Knicks have KP in their back pocket and he's sure to get a max deal is BS.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

This post is as coherent as a smocking gun.

Did I do that right?

Maybe we end up drafting our own Kemba, Kyrie, KD 🤷

That, and sign a top notch FA!!!! Why not both?
Winning is not a prerequisite, its the afterglow.

Knicks1248, if we sign one of those three will you go away?

20 teams will have enough cap space to sign at least one max player, 8 will have enough for two.

Unlike you, I watch college ball and this is a pretty weak draft(google it), It's the kind of draft where the best NBA ready player maybe at the bottom of the draft for a player like Kuz or jimmy butler.

The top of the draft is littered with good college players that will get exposed in the NBA. RJ and Zion are not the positions we need filling.

knicks1248 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The Idea that the Knicks have KP in their back pocket and he's sure to get a max deal is BS.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

This post is as coherent as a smocking gun.

Did I do that right?

Maybe we end up drafting our own Kemba, Kyrie, KD 🤷

That, and sign a top notch FA!!!! Why not both?
Winning is not a prerequisite, its the afterglow.

Knicks1248, if we sign one of those three will you go away?

20 teams will have enough cap space to sign at least one max player, 8 will have enough for two.

Unlike you, I watch college ball and this is a pretty weak draft(google it), It's the kind of draft where the best NBA ready player maybe at the bottom of the draft for a player like Kuz or jimmy butler.

The top of the draft is littered with good college players that will get exposed in the NBA. RJ and Zion are not the positions we need filling.

You say the same thing about every draft. I remember the night before this years draft when the rest of us are excited you made a thread about how most picks are busts. I mean we get you dont believe in building through the draft

GTFOH with that, please pull that one up for me.

If anything I said most draft picks are role players, and you keep saying I dont want build through the draft which is true.

My idea of rebuilding is get a couple of decent picks with high upside(which we have already), trading for complementary players that fit the system, and sign a max player with your cap space.

not spending 6 yrs in the lottery or trading your players away for 2nd round picks, or signing THJ Noah type contracts.

Lets see since 2013
Thj,
cleanthoney
thansis
jerian grant
kuz
willy
KP
knox
frank
mitch

I could easily throw in Mudiay, noah, burke, and mario who were all lottery picks during the same time span

5 yrs later were on our 4th coach, 8 wins to show for it, more lottery picks, the 3rd worse record in the NBA--right along with the SUNs, magic and kings.

the picks we have now Knox, Frank, mitch, trier, are 3 to 4 yrs away.

Im going to be the first to tell you this..MILLS WILL GET FIRED THIS OFF SEASON if we finish in the bottom 5, I told you this about woodson, fisher, phil and JH 6 months before it happen..

RJ Barrett is absolutely a position we need filling as is Cam Reddish. We def need that 6'7-6-8 G/F that can handle and shoot and pass and comfortably play SG or SF without giving up touch size and length. I like PG Ja Morant as well from Murray state.

Even if they weren't. The value that Zion or RJ can command would be astronomical. Overlapping talent means package deals to command nessesary upgrades while still having talent to fall back on.

We most likely wont land a stud this off season. But we can look to package Hardaway and another piece and maybe a draft pick for an upgrade. Then still be able to fall back on a combination of KP, Mitch, Vonleh, Knox, Dotson, Frank, Trier and our 2019 top 5? Pick. If we would be able to pull something like that off at the draft. Then a FA will see the Timmy upgrade, KP, top 5 pick. Then look to be apart of a big 3-4. Not counting all the other quality young pieces still left to play with.

Mills won't be fired though. It will take a move like the Bargnani trade or Jakeem Noah signing or trading the whole team for Carmelo and then stepping down or giving Melo a max, tk, ntc then look to waive him for the Prez to to be removed. As long as there is no laughing stock signings or trades then he will be safe.

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The Idea that the Knicks have KP in their back pocket and he's sure to get a max deal is BS.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

This post is as coherent as a smocking gun.

Did I do that right?

Maybe we end up drafting our own Kemba, Kyrie, KD 🤷

That, and sign a top notch FA!!!! Why not both?
Winning is not a prerequisite, its the afterglow.

Knicks1248, if we sign one of those three will you go away?

20 teams will have enough cap space to sign at least one max player, 8 will have enough for two.

Unlike you, I watch college ball and this is a pretty weak draft(google it), It's the kind of draft where the best NBA ready player maybe at the bottom of the draft for a player like Kuz or jimmy butler.

The top of the draft is littered with good college players that will get exposed in the NBA. RJ and Zion are not the positions we need filling.

You say the same thing about every draft. I remember the night before this years draft when the rest of us are excited you made a thread about how most picks are busts. I mean we get you dont believe in building through the draft

GTFOH with that, please pull that one up for me.

If anything I said most draft picks are role players, and you keep saying I dont want build through the draft which is true.

My idea of rebuilding is get a couple of decent picks with high upside(which we have already), trading for complementary players that fit the system, and sign a max player with your cap space.

not spending 6 yrs in the lottery or trading your players away for 2nd round picks, or signing THJ Noah type contracts.

Lets see since 2013
Thj,
cleanthoney
thansis
jerian grant
kuz
willy
KP
knox
frank
mitch

I could easily throw in Mudiay, noah, burke, and mario who were all lottery picks during the same time span

5 yrs later were on our 4th coach, 8 wins to show for it, more lottery picks, the 3rd worse record in the NBA--right along with the SUNs, magic and kings.

the picks we have now Knox, Frank, mitch, trier, are 3 to 4 yrs away.

Im going to be the first to tell you this..MILLS WILL GET FIRED THIS OFF SEASON if we finish in the bottom 5, I told you this about woodson, fisher, phil and JH 6 months before it happen..

RJ Barrett is absolutely a position we need filling as is Cam Reddish. We def need that 6'7-6-8 G/F that can handle and shoot and pass and comfortably play SG or SF without giving up touch size and length. I like PG Ja Morant as well from Murray state.

Even if they weren't. The value that Zion or RJ can command would be astronomical. Overlapping talent means package deals to command nessesary upgrades while still having talent to fall back on.

We most likely wont land a stud this off season. But we can look to package Hardaway and another piece and maybe a draft pick for an upgrade. Then still be able to fall back on a combination of KP, Mitch, Vonleh, Knox, Dotson, Frank, Trier and our 2019 top 5? Pick. If we would be able to pull something like that off at the draft. Then a FA will see the Timmy upgrade, KP, top 5 pick. Then look to be apart of a big 3-4. Not counting all the other quality young pieces still left to play with.

Mills won't be fired though. It will take a move like the Bargnani trade or Jakeem Noah signing or trading the whole team for Carmelo and then stepping down or giving Melo a max, tk, ntc then look to waive him for the Prez to to be removed. As long as there is no laughing stock signings or trades then he will be safe.

I have zero faith in mills and perry making a sold trade, they have proven that they are just not good at that because they are too damn conservative, scared as hell to make an impact trade using their assets.

Give me an example of a trade mills made since he's been GM/Prez that has elevated the franchise and lets not talk about perry who was useless in orlando and got fired.

At the end of the day it's all about results

The conservative approach is what has been nessesary based on the situation. They pulled off a pretty damn good trade in moving Melo to OKC which has been highlighted in another thread.

I don't know if they are cappable of flipping Thjr into a stud or not. But their conservative approach gives me more faith than not.

You have to have assets to fall back on before you get aggressive which the Knicks did not have until this past off season by nabbing guys like Knox, Trier, Mitch, Vonleh. To go witj KP, Frank, Dotson.

Being aggressive before having those pieces to fall back on has lead to the path of failure for the Knicks over and over and over and over. And the fact that results are what matters is exactly why being conservative until your in a position of strength is more favorable. Because just like how your throwing a fit now about not being aggressive. If those same aggressive moves ended up backfiring or not working out. You will be the same one throwing a fit about the stupid trade they made when all said and done. So instead of looking to appease impatient fans who will turn on you in a split second. Best to do what's best for the long term health of the franchise.

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

martin wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The Idea that the Knicks have KP in their back pocket and he's sure to get a max deal is BS.

If the case was to save cap space, and they strike out in FA because no one may be interested in (what looks to be) a long rebuild. Are they going to go back to KP and say we'll try again next off season, Mean while just take this money and shut up and enjoy watching the playoffs on cable, or maybe fiz can take him to a few playoff games and down a few beers so he can get the feel for it.

If the knicks manage to sign a Kember,Kyrie, or KD this off season, the honeymoon is over, the development is over, the stakes are higher, the expectations are higher.

This is not an attractive roster right now, dudes are not looking at the knicks like those Cats go hard every night, those dudes play top notch defense, those dudes are all about sacrificing and winning, that coach got them balling out their brains..

This post is as coherent as a smocking gun.

Did I do that right?

Maybe we end up drafting our own Kemba, Kyrie, KD 🤷

That, and sign a top notch FA!!!! Why not both?
Winning is not a prerequisite, its the afterglow.

Knicks1248, if we sign one of those three will you go away?

20 teams will have enough cap space to sign at least one max player, 8 will have enough for two.

Unlike you, I watch college ball and this is a pretty weak draft(google it), It's the kind of draft where the best NBA ready player maybe at the bottom of the draft for a player like Kuz or jimmy butler.

The top of the draft is littered with good college players that will get exposed in the NBA. RJ and Zion are not the positions we need filling.

You say the same thing about every draft. I remember the night before this years draft when the rest of us are excited you made a thread about how most picks are busts. I mean we get you dont believe in building through the draft

GTFOH with that, please pull that one up for me.

If anything I said most draft picks are role players, and you keep saying I dont want build through the draft which is true.

My idea of rebuilding is get a couple of decent picks with high upside(which we have already), trading for complementary players that fit the system, and sign a max player with your cap space.

not spending 6 yrs in the lottery or trading your players away for 2nd round picks, or signing THJ Noah type contracts.

Lets see since 2013
Thj,
cleanthoney
thansis
jerian grant
kuz
willy
KP
knox
frank
mitch

I could easily throw in Mudiay, noah, burke, and mario who were all lottery picks during the same time span

5 yrs later were on our 4th coach, 8 wins to show for it, more lottery picks, the 3rd worse record in the NBA--right along with the SUNs, magic and kings.

the picks we have now Knox, Frank, mitch, trier, are 3 to 4 yrs away.

Im going to be the first to tell you this..MILLS WILL GET FIRED THIS OFF SEASON if we finish in the bottom 5, I told you this about woodson, fisher, phil and JH 6 months before it happen..

RJ Barrett is absolutely a position we need filling as is Cam Reddish. We def need that 6'7-6-8 G/F that can handle and shoot and pass and comfortably play SG or SF without giving up touch size and length. I like PG Ja Morant as well from Murray state.

Even if they weren't. The value that Zion or RJ can command would be astronomical. Overlapping talent means package deals to command nessesary upgrades while still having talent to fall back on.

We most likely wont land a stud this off season. But we can look to package Hardaway and another piece and maybe a draft pick for an upgrade. Then still be able to fall back on a combination of KP, Mitch, Vonleh, Knox, Dotson, Frank, Trier and our 2019 top 5? Pick. If we would be able to pull something like that off at the draft. Then a FA will see the Timmy upgrade, KP, top 5 pick. Then look to be apart of a big 3-4. Not counting all the other quality young pieces still left to play with.

Mills won't be fired though. It will take a move like the Bargnani trade or Jakeem Noah signing or trading the whole team for Carmelo and then stepping down or giving Melo a max, tk, ntc then look to waive him for the Prez to to be removed. As long as there is no laughing stock signings or trades then he will be safe.

I have zero faith in mills and perry making a sold trade, they have proven that they are just not good at that because they are too damn conservative, scared as hell to make an impact trade using their assets.

Give me an example of a trade mills made since he's been GM/Prez that has elevated the franchise and lets not talk about perry who was useless in orlando and got fired.

At the end of the day it's all about results

The conservative approach is what has been nessesary based on the situation. They pulled off a pretty damn good trade in moving Melo to OKC which has been highlighted in another thread.

I don't know if they are cappable of flipping Thjr into a stud or not. But their conservative approach gives me more faith than not.

You have to have assets to fall back on before you get aggressive which the Knicks did not have until this past off season by nabbing guys like Knox, Trier, Mitch, Vonleh. To go witj KP, Frank, Dotson.

Being aggressive before having those pieces to fall back on has lead to the path of failure for the Knicks over and over and over and over. And the fact that results are what matters is exactly why being conservative until your in a position of strength is more favorable. Because just like how your throwing a fit now about not being aggressive. If those same aggressive moves ended up backfiring or not working out. You will be the same one throwing a fit about the stupid trade they made when all said and done. So instead of looking to appease impatient fans who will turn on you in a split second. Best to do what's best for the long term health of the franchise.

knicks1248 wrote:I have zero faith in mills and perry making a sold trade, they have proven that they are just not good at that because they are too damn conservative, scared as hell to make an impact trade using their assets.

Perry has three kinds of players

A) Players the Knicks want to keep and trading them would set the team back ( even in principle only)

B) Players the Knicks would be happy to trade, but are overpaid to market and/or have ****ty contracts that no one wants

C) Fringe roster guys/journeymen, who have close to no real trade value ( You might get the rights to a Euro-Stash or a very late 2nd round pick flip from a team gutted by injuries)

The Rookie Scale Exception is going up progressively in this current CBA. The longer term impact is the lack of need to attach a bad contract to a rookie contract to get a salary match, or needing a large trade exception or just raw cap space in the offseason. The functional end result is a mid level production rookie contract guy can operate close to the former version of the Mid Level Exception in value.

Having draft picks is valuable. Having a very high draft pick is very very valuable. For TRADING though, having a guy ON HIS ROOKIE DEAL on your roster is the most flexible. Actual NBA trades operate more to their functional FLEXIBILITY than to just their raw VALUE.

The Knicks have nothing any team wants that they want to give up ( unlike the typical trade rape scenarios in here, real NBA trades tend to operate in a Win/Win type perception format), if they wanted to trade younger players, they are better off drafting the players and leaving them on the roster first and moving them in their 2nd year. The Knicks would be selling low on Frank N, so there are no actual trades that would help this team right now given their cap sheet and asset base.

You are seeing potential trades that don't actually exist in the current marketplace.

sidsanders wrote:night before draft thread
http://www.ultimateknicks.com/forum/topic.asp?t=58338&page=1