Have not seen enough of Josh Jackson but I believe Fiz can bring out the best in him.

meloshouldgo wrote:Wow. I thought he had shown he can't play in the NBA and can't possibly find playing time ahead of our future HOFscrubs? Are people inquiring about Mudiay? We gething trade offers for Burke?

But Frank shouldn't get playing time on the worst team in the league. And this is what call a rebuild. I mean we have some of the smartest fans in the world making the decisions for us. Who needs data and who cares about defense? Let's ship him out and get more stupid fukking no defense chuckers in the lineup. Some things never change

If these reports are true, it may not be that teams are that in love with Frank. More like they believe they can get him at a bargain discount price. Basically a 1/2 off sale.

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Wow. I thought he had shown he can't play in the NBA and can't possibly find playing time ahead of our future HOFscrubs? Are people inquiring about Mudiay? We gething trade offers for Burke?

But Frank shouldn't get playing time on the worst team in the league. And this is what call a rebuild. I mean we have some of the smartest fans in the world making the decisions for us. Who needs data and who cares about defense? Let's ship him out and get more stupid fukking no defense chuckers in the lineup. Some things never change

Your hyperbole is so dramatic. One has nothing to do with the other. If Mudiay is playing well play him. If Frank is playing well play him. If Burke is playing well play him. But the notion that playing Frank when he's stinking up the joint is going to be productive in his development at his age doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion. I'm on board being patient with Frank but I don't believe that throwing in the deep water is the answer either.

If these reports are true, it may not be that teams are that in love with Frank. More like they believe they can get him at a bargain discount price. Basically a 1/2 off sale.

Discount against what? Frank's market value? That implies Frank actually HAS market value . And it's more than Mudiay and Burke combined. Playing your best defensive player in his natural position doesn't make sense in a REBUILD year because we need to develop rented chuckers and instill the virtues of isolation basketball? That will change the world, it will.

This is where we disagree, you equate playing with developing. If a guy isn't ready to assume certain responsibilities throwing him out there anyway probably isn't helping him. This idea that it's good to play people before they're ready is very shaky. There's A LOT that goes into this. Some players may be strong enough to endure getting destroyed every night. Some players may never recover or would need a "change of scenery" to recover from it. Beside, Frank is playing every game. He is playing. When he plays well he gets more minutes. When he sucks, he doesn't play has much. He's not being benched.

You could look at it like playing Mudiay is actually protecting Frank and taking the pressure off of him since it's obvious he's not ready.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Wow. I thought he had shown he can't play in the NBA and can't possibly find playing time ahead of our future HOFscrubs? Are people inquiring about Mudiay? We gething trade offers for Burke?

But Frank shouldn't get playing time on the worst team in the league. And this is what call a rebuild. I mean we have some of the smartest fans in the world making the decisions for us. Who needs data and who cares about defense? Let's ship him out and get more stupid fukking no defense chuckers in the lineup. Some things never change

Your hyperbole is so dramatic. One has nothing to do with the other. If Mudiay is playing well play him. If Frank is playing well play him. If Burke is playing well play him. But the notion that playing Frank when he's stinking up the joint is going to be productive in his development at his age doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion. I'm on board being patient with Frank but I don't believe that throwing in the deep water is the answer either.

If these reports are true, it may not be that teams are that in love with Frank. More like they believe they can get him at a bargain discount price. Basically a 1/2 off sale.

Discount against what? Frank's market value? That implies Frank actually HAS market value . And it's more than Mudiay and Burke combined. Playing your best defensive player in his natural position doesn't make sense in a REBUILD year because we need to develop rented chuckers and instill the virtues of isolation basketball? That will change the world, it will.

If you believe Vernon talked with guys on the coaching staff, then you have to concede that the coaching staff does not see Frank's natural position as point guard. If that is the case then it's really tough with Frank because he doesn't score on offense so it is very difficult to have him as a wing player. I don't think Frank's deficits on offense are on the coaching staff. Fiz stated from the beginning that he didn't want to label Frank as a point guard. When he said this he claimed it was because he didn't want to hold him back by forcing him into one role. But everyone else on the team plays one role.
If the coaching staff is truly 'out' on Frank then maybe it is time to move on. I have seen several people, Triple, blog writers, speculate that Frank's agent might be pushing for a trade from the Knicks.
I don't think the Knicks should trade Frank. It doesn't make sense to me to draft an 18 yr old and then one year in give up on him. But if he is a guy the coaching staff doesn't see as having a position or developing as a player then I think you have to consider trades. Right now I don't think more court time fixes Frank or increases his trade value. I do think the Knicks could get a decent return on a Frank trade.

You are just restating the problem. The problem is that Fiz decided Frank can't play PG before season even started and then forced the issue by playing him at SF and broke down his confidence further. Fiz is very limited as a coach because his "offense" consists of pounding the ball up the court as fast as you can and chuckling. So yeah I am not surprised he didn't see Frank in that role. That's on him, not in Frank. To build an NBAquality PG you need a coach that understands what one looks like. Fiz has shown zero evidence that he does. As the season progresses it's clear he is focused mor on building an isolation chucking identity than a taen with a defensive mindset.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Wow. I thought he had shown he can't play in the NBA and can't possibly find playing time ahead of our future HOFscrubs? Are people inquiring about Mudiay? We gething trade offers for Burke?

But Frank shouldn't get playing time on the worst team in the league. And this is what call a rebuild. I mean we have some of the smartest fans in the world making the decisions for us. Who needs data and who cares about defense? Let's ship him out and get more stupid fukking no defense chuckers in the lineup. Some things never change

Your hyperbole is so dramatic. One has nothing to do with the other. If Mudiay is playing well play him. If Frank is playing well play him. If Burke is playing well play him. But the notion that playing Frank when he's stinking up the joint is going to be productive in his development at his age doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion. I'm on board being patient with Frank but I don't believe that throwing in the deep water is the answer either.

If these reports are true, it may not be that teams are that in love with Frank. More like they believe they can get him at a bargain discount price. Basically a 1/2 off sale.

Discount against what? Frank's market value? That implies Frank actually HAS market value . And it's more than Mudiay and Burke combined. Playing your best defensive player in his natural position doesn't make sense in a REBUILD year because we need to develop rented chuckers and instill the virtues of isolation basketball? That will change the world, it will.

If you believe Vernon talked with guys on the coaching staff, then you have to concede that the coaching staff does not see Frank's natural position as point guard. If that is the case then it's really tough with Frank because he doesn't score on offense so it is very difficult to have him as a wing player. I don't think Frank's deficits on offense are on the coaching staff. Fiz stated from the beginning that he didn't want to label Frank as a point guard. When he said this he claimed it was because he didn't want to hold him back by forcing him into one role. But everyone else on the team plays one role.
If the coaching staff is truly 'out' on Frank then maybe it is time to move on. I have seen several people, Triple, blog writers, speculate that Frank's agent might be pushing for a trade from the Knicks.
I don't think the Knicks should trade Frank. It doesn't make sense to me to draft an 18 yr old and then one year in give up on him. But if he is a guy the coaching staff doesn't see as having a position or developing as a player then I think you have to consider trades. Right now I don't think more court time fixes Frank or increases his trade value. I do think the Knicks could get a decent return on a Frank trade.

You are just restating the problem. The problem is that Fiz decided Frank can't play PG before season even started and then forced the issue by playing him at SF and broke down his confidence further. Fiz is very limited as a coach because his "offense" consists of pounding the ball up the court as fast as you can and chuckling. So yeah I am not surprised he didn't see Frank in that role. That's on him, not in Frank. To build an NBAquality PG you need a coach that understands what one looks like. Fiz has shown zero evidence that he does. As the season progresses it's clear he is focused mor on building an isolation chucking identity than a taen with a defensive mindset.

Frank was playing off the ball at the end of last season. The Knicks also traded for Mudiay and signed Burke last season. I think there were concerns about what position Frank could play before Fiz arrived.

There was concerns before the draft. Look at the best guards in the NBA today. They all have the abiltiy to create off the dribble and get their own shot. Frank literally has no ability to do this. All I heard is he is a team player, Thats fine but you need a guy to break down the defense and get easy baskets for others. Frank does not have the ability or even the will to do this. From day 1 I said backup wing. He is Tony Allen/Andre Roberson. Thats fine, Tony Allen was a very nice player for a long time. The problem though is Frank was picked at 8 not in the mid twenties. Sucking for 82 games and getting Tony Allen at the end of it is not changing the fortunes of this franchise. Thats why your seeing anger from the fanbase.

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Wow. I thought he had shown he can't play in the NBA and can't possibly find playing time ahead of our future HOFscrubs? Are people inquiring about Mudiay? We gething trade offers for Burke?

But Frank shouldn't get playing time on the worst team in the league. And this is what call a rebuild. I mean we have some of the smartest fans in the world making the decisions for us. Who needs data and who cares about defense? Let's ship him out and get more stupid fukking no defense chuckers in the lineup. Some things never change

Your hyperbole is so dramatic. One has nothing to do with the other. If Mudiay is playing well play him. If Frank is playing well play him. If Burke is playing well play him. But the notion that playing Frank when he's stinking up the joint is going to be productive in his development at his age doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion. I'm on board being patient with Frank but I don't believe that throwing in the deep water is the answer either.

If these reports are true, it may not be that teams are that in love with Frank. More like they believe they can get him at a bargain discount price. Basically a 1/2 off sale.

Discount against what? Frank's market value? That implies Frank actually HAS market value . And it's more than Mudiay and Burke combined. Playing your best defensive player in his natural position doesn't make sense in a REBUILD year because we need to develop rented chuckers and instill the virtues of isolation basketball? That will change the world, it will.

If you believe Vernon talked with guys on the coaching staff, then you have to concede that the coaching staff does not see Frank's natural position as point guard. If that is the case then it's really tough with Frank because he doesn't score on offense so it is very difficult to have him as a wing player. I don't think Frank's deficits on offense are on the coaching staff. Fiz stated from the beginning that he didn't want to label Frank as a point guard. When he said this he claimed it was because he didn't want to hold him back by forcing him into one role. But everyone else on the team plays one role.
If the coaching staff is truly 'out' on Frank then maybe it is time to move on. I have seen several people, Triple, blog writers, speculate that Frank's agent might be pushing for a trade from the Knicks.
I don't think the Knicks should trade Frank. It doesn't make sense to me to draft an 18 yr old and then one year in give up on him. But if he is a guy the coaching staff doesn't see as having a position or developing as a player then I think you have to consider trades. Right now I don't think more court time fixes Frank or increases his trade value. I do think the Knicks could get a decent return on a Frank trade.

You are just restating the problem. The problem is that Fiz decided Frank can't play PG before season even started and then forced the issue by playing him at SF and broke down his confidence further. Fiz is very limited as a coach because his "offense" consists of pounding the ball up the court as fast as you can and chuckling. So yeah I am not surprised he didn't see Frank in that role. That's on him, not in Frank. To build an NBAquality PG you need a coach that understands what one looks like. Fiz has shown zero evidence that he does. As the season progresses it's clear he is focused mor on building an isolation chucking identity than a taen with a defensive mindset.

Frank was playing off the ball at the end of last season. The Knicks also traded for Mudiay and signed Burke last season. I think there were concerns about what position Frank could play before Fiz arrived.

Exactly....Frank played some point last year and it didn't work out in the eyes of a different coaching staff and management which is why a trade for Payton was considered and Mudiay was brought in. Frank was moved back to point after Burke was benched, and after a couple of good games, Frank regressed and played poorly so he was moved off the point.

People who want Frank to play point regardless of how bad he is playing only consider a piece of the equation. They never consider what's going on in practice and in the lockerroom. If Frank is getting outplayed at the point in practice (and it sounds like a 22 yr old was outplaying him),then starting him will not go over with the rest of the locker room, especially when Fiz said, minutes are earned or you eat what you kill....

meloshouldgo wrote:

Uptown wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:Wow. I thought he had shown he can't play in the NBA and can't possibly find playing time ahead of our future HOFscrubs? Are people inquiring about Mudiay? We gething trade offers for Burke?

But Frank shouldn't get playing time on the worst team in the league. And this is what call a rebuild. I mean we have some of the smartest fans in the world making the decisions for us. Who needs data and who cares about defense? Let's ship him out and get more stupid fukking no defense chuckers in the lineup. Some things never change

Your hyperbole is so dramatic. One has nothing to do with the other. If Mudiay is playing well play him. If Frank is playing well play him. If Burke is playing well play him. But the notion that playing Frank when he's stinking up the joint is going to be productive in his development at his age doesn't make a lot of sense in my opinion. I'm on board being patient with Frank but I don't believe that throwing in the deep water is the answer either.

If these reports are true, it may not be that teams are that in love with Frank. More like they believe they can get him at a bargain discount price. Basically a 1/2 off sale.

Discount against what? Frank's market value? That implies Frank actually HAS market value . And it's more than Mudiay and Burke combined. Playing your best defensive player in his natural position doesn't make sense in a REBUILD year because we need to develop rented chuckers and instill the virtues of isolation basketball? That will change the world, it will.

If you believe Vernon talked with guys on the coaching staff, then you have to concede that the coaching staff does not see Frank's natural position as point guard. If that is the case then it's really tough with Frank because he doesn't score on offense so it is very difficult to have him as a wing player. I don't think Frank's deficits on offense are on the coaching staff. Fiz stated from the beginning that he didn't want to label Frank as a point guard. When he said this he claimed it was because he didn't want to hold him back by forcing him into one role. But everyone else on the team plays one role.
If the coaching staff is truly 'out' on Frank then maybe it is time to move on. I have seen several people, Triple, blog writers, speculate that Frank's agent might be pushing for a trade from the Knicks.
I don't think the Knicks should trade Frank. It doesn't make sense to me to draft an 18 yr old and then one year in give up on him. But if he is a guy the coaching staff doesn't see as having a position or developing as a player then I think you have to consider trades. Right now I don't think more court time fixes Frank or increases his trade value. I do think the Knicks could get a decent return on a Frank trade.

You are just restating the problem. The problem is that Fiz decided Frank can't play PG before season even started and then forced the issue by playing him at SF and broke down his confidence further. Fiz is very limited as a coach because his "offense" consists of pounding the ball up the court as fast as you can and chuckling. So yeah I am not surprised he didn't see Frank in that role. That's on him, not in Frank. To build an NBAquality PG you need a coach that understands what one looks like. Fiz has shown zero evidence that he does. As the season progresses it's clear he is focused mor on building an isolation chucking identity than a taen with a defensive mindset.

Frank was playing off the ball at the end of last season. The Knicks also traded for Mudiay and signed Burke last season. I think there were concerns about what position Frank could play before Fiz arrived.

Exactly....Frank played some point last year and it didn't work out in the eyes of a different coaching staff and management which is why a trade for Payton was considered and Mudiay was brought in. Frank was moved back to point after Burke was benched, and after a couple of good games, Frank regressed and played poorly so he was moved off the point.

People who want Frank to play point regardless of how bad he is playing only consider a piece of the equation. They never consider what's going on in practice and in the lockerroom. If Frank is getting outplayed at the point in practice (and it sounds like a 22 yr old was outplaying him),then starting him will not go over with the rest of the locker room, especially when Fiz said, minutes are earned or you eat what you kill....

Yes geniuses, he played 22 minutes a game and 60% of his minutes at PG. That's around 13 minutes game at PG, and about half of that was with Baker, McDermott, Beasley and O'Quinn on the floor. That's the best way to judge if a 19 year old can run a team. Keep pushing your hate.

Where is the hate in anything I said?! My post was based on evidence from 2 coaching staffs, and the front office....I have nothing against Frank as long as he is wearing a Knick uni...Just calling it like I see it....

Jmpasq wrote:

LivingLegend wrote:

smackeddog wrote:I thought josh Jackson was going to be great- oops!

Man did I love Josh Jackson coming out of Kansas - amazing how you can really miss.

That said - I am a Frank guy but I would still probably reach for Jackson if I could get him straight up for Frankie.

Also - I might be able to be talked into some type of Frank deal centered around D-Melton/D-Bender and a high 2nd rounder --- kind of like Melton and hate the way we are using Frank off-ball.

How do you use Frank on the ball when he is allergic to dribbling. The guy is scared to have the ball

I hear you - I wouldn’t be open to moving Frank if there were zero concerns with his offense but at the same time I thought he played off KP very nicely last year before KP went down.

Mostly I think Frank is far worse off the ball than in a system on the ball.

Some of his issues could be system related with his system heavily reliant on one on ball (absolutely not Franks game).

I would jump at J Jackson if that were ever on the table purely for athleticism and higher upside IMO.

nyknickzingis wrote:Frank is a 3nD specialist in the making at worst.
Giving up on a guy who can defend multiple positions, handle the ball, make passes, shoot the 3, all because he’s not a great scorer or “pure” point guard is not wise.

I still believe by next year the guy will be averaging 10 points a game, 3-4 assists, a few three pointers, and most importantly elite défense.

Once KP is back, you will see how valuable a player like Frank is. Right now we need a shot creator badly. Frank’s lack of creative ability is exposed. With KP back, a healthy all star KP, Hardaway as a second option, Trier the third, suddenly two quality suppport players like Vonleh and Frank have value.

Lineup I want to see

KP
Vonleh
Hardaway (eventually Knox in a year or two)
Frank
Trier

To be fair though there are other issues....he doesn’t move off the ball, very lethargic in his movements, he doesn’t rebound very well...he isn’t showing an abilit6 to get to the rim or foul line.

His sluggishness is a concern for me and I love the kid...hope he can turn it around but he is in a very tough spot with NY glare all around. Best thing for him could be a smaller market.