Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

At the moment that seems to be true. However, we're still talking about a roster that overall has weak playmaking ability. I don't think we have ANYONE on the team with above average playing ability for their positions. Seems like we're below average on that regard across the board. You can see it in our assists. Only 1 player on the roster is averaging over 3apg, and only barely so.

Our best playmakers have yet to establish themselves as legitimate players in the league. Burke has not established himself as more than a mediocre score-first PG, riddled with other deficiencies. Mudiay is similar, though he's probably worse at every attribute across the board. Our 3rd best playmaker (Ntilikina) has proven less than either of those guys offensively, though his saving grace is that he's an elite defender. It's just that he's been less than 0 on offense that he's been a net negative this year.

It's what you call a bad team. Guys like Kanter (elite scoring around the basket, rebounding), Vonleh (a bit of the same as Kanter, perhaps with average to + defense), THJr (overall more consistent scoring than ever but below average to average in every other aspect of his game but improving) kind of do their core jobs reasonably well, but they don't compensate for the lack of playmaking.

I've started thinking about what was different last year. We're definitely missing the impactful play of the broken down Jarrett Jack last year. He obviously had his limitations, but early in the season he kept the team in order and dragged us to victory. This year, we don't have a young player with that type of realized talent that just knows how to do it. It's a sad state that none of the 3 have emerged from this weak pool of competition and won the job outright. I thought it'd be Burke, but he hasn't distanced himself from the others.

What's Jeremy Lin up to these days?

However one cant ignore the politics of the NBA. May very well be the case that Mills will look to move one from the guys from Phil era. Its also fair to say that a new regime has the right to shape the team with the type of players they feel fit their system. Reason why I argued that Frank was indeed a Triangle pick. If its the case that they are looking to move Frank, hope that its a trade for a mid 20's proven piece. Would be a shame to trade those 2 for just another roll in the draft game.

I need to see what trade they are looking at to form any type of opinion. Trading him because he isn't providing immediate results has been one of this orgs flaws over the decades.

I also don't see any type of plan put in place to even attempt to develop him though. Development seems to just be based off of who can do the best as a free lancer.

NYKBocker wrote:

Marv wrote:People say frank was chosen to be a Phil "system pg" and i think that's true. And when he and kp played together in a hornacek "modified system" frank had a bunch of high-assist games along with his great D. kp also flourished.

Let's see what happens when kp returns. I think it's both up to fiz to figure out how to harness frank's strengths and leverage them and up to frank to develop approaches to his game that fiz is directing him toward. It's gotta be a hybrid effort imo.

It would be crazy to me to trade frank. For years. This is the guy to be patient on and keep working toward figuring him out. He will be an incredible asset to a team at some point. I want it to be the knicks.

Abso****inglutely! He is not an attacking score first PG but he knows how to set people up. His play with KP is beautiful to watch. He is the only plAyer who knows how to make an entry pass to a big man. We are going to need him when KP comes back.

How do you know that when mudiay/burke/trier never played with KP before?

Not saying frank isn't a use full player, but if the system he is playing in doesn't benefit his skill set, why the hell are you doing wth him. That just makes his development that much harder and his progress much slower because he has mental hurdles

We didn't we draft more players like frank, we drafted high energy fast pace athletic freaks who can run and jump out the gym.

knicks1248 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Marv wrote:People say frank was chosen to be a Phil "system pg" and i think that's true. And when he and kp played together in a hornacek "modified system" frank had a bunch of high-assist games along with his great D. kp also flourished.

Let's see what happens when kp returns. I think it's both up to fiz to figure out how to harness frank's strengths and leverage them and up to frank to develop approaches to his game that fiz is directing him toward. It's gotta be a hybrid effort imo.

It would be crazy to me to trade frank. For years. This is the guy to be patient on and keep working toward figuring him out. He will be an incredible asset to a team at some point. I want it to be the knicks.

Abso****inglutely! He is not an attacking score first PG but he knows how to set people up. His play with KP is beautiful to watch. He is the only plAyer who knows how to make an entry pass to a big man. We are going to need him when KP comes back.

How do you know that when mudiay/burke/trier never played with KP before?

Not saying frank isn't a use full player, but if the system he is playing in doesn't benefit his skill set, why the hell are you doing wth him. That just makes his development that much harder and his progress much slower because he has mental hurdles

We didn't we draft more players like frank, we drafted high energy fast pace athletic freaks who can run and jump out the gym.

i'm not so sure it has to be so mutually exclusive. a great team can and maybe should have a diversity of player types.

Marv wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:

Marv wrote:People say frank was chosen to be a Phil "system pg" and i think that's true. And when he and kp played together in a hornacek "modified system" frank had a bunch of high-assist games along with his great D. kp also flourished.

Let's see what happens when kp returns. I think it's both up to fiz to figure out how to harness frank's strengths and leverage them and up to frank to develop approaches to his game that fiz is directing him toward. It's gotta be a hybrid effort imo.

It would be crazy to me to trade frank. For years. This is the guy to be patient on and keep working toward figuring him out. He will be an incredible asset to a team at some point. I want it to be the knicks.

Abso****inglutely! He is not an attacking score first PG but he knows how to set people up. His play with KP is beautiful to watch. He is the only plAyer who knows how to make an entry pass to a big man. We are going to need him when KP comes back.

How do you know that when mudiay/burke/trier never played with KP before?

Not saying frank isn't a use full player, but if the system he is playing in doesn't benefit his skill set, why the hell are you doing wth him. That just makes his development that much harder and his progress much slower because he has mental hurdles

We didn't we draft more players like frank, we drafted high energy fast pace athletic freaks who can run and jump out the gym.

i'm not so sure it has to be so mutually exclusive. a great team can and maybe should have a diversity of player types.

I agree with you, but that's not how the roster looks to me.

In fact mills stated before the draft that they wanted to get faster and more athletic, which had a lot to do with them not retaining Beasly and KOQ

it would be even dumber for them to say such thing to media members.

i kind of don't believe vernon, or at least i don't trust his interpretation.

i highgly doubt they said they are out on frank or done with him. they may have expressed frustration, sure.

Vmart wrote:

technomaster wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

At the moment that seems to be true. However, we're still talking about a roster that overall has weak playmaking ability. I don't think we have ANYONE on the team with above average playing ability for their positions. Seems like we're below average on that regard across the board. You can see it in our assists. Only 1 player on the roster is averaging over 3apg, and only barely so.

Our best playmakers have yet to establish themselves as legitimate players in the league. Burke has not established himself as more than a mediocre score-first PG, riddled with other deficiencies. Mudiay is similar, though he's probably worse at every attribute across the board. Our 3rd best playmaker (Ntilikina) has proven less than either of those guys offensively, though his saving grace is that he's an elite defender. It's just that he's been less than 0 on offense that he's been a net negative this year.

It's what you call a bad team. Guys like Kanter (elite scoring around the basket, rebounding), Vonleh (a bit of the same as Kanter, perhaps with average to + defense), THJr (overall more consistent scoring than ever but below average to average in every other aspect of his game but improving) kind of do their core jobs reasonably well, but they don't compensate for the lack of playmaking.

I've started thinking about what was different last year. We're definitely missing the impactful play of the broken down Jarrett Jack last year. He obviously had his limitations, but early in the season he kept the team in order and dragged us to victory. This year, we don't have a young player with that type of realized talent that just knows how to do it. It's a sad state that none of the 3 have emerged from this weak pool of competition and won the job outright. I thought it'd be Burke, but he hasn't distanced himself from the others.

What's Jeremy Lin up to these days?

This current team is horrendous at passing and it is a scheme issue. Last year Frank was a better passer he had his head up and hitting long passes. His ball moves faster than dribbling up court concepts have all be quelled. Fiz is very good this guy has no record of success other than being a towel boy for LeBron and Wade and Pat Riley. No accomplishments.

Frank needed Mark Jackson as coach not this Fiz chump.

blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

StarksEwing1 wrote:

blkexec wrote:

Vmart wrote:There is no place for a team player like Frank in a team less system. This team Fiz has and is being coached is to be ball hogs. Hence no assists. What we are witnessing is a coach who has no concept of team basketball. You will not win much with Fiz.

That's an extreme over blown statement.

He coached 3 NBA teams....1 as an assistant in Miami. He also was a PG in college. I understand if you don't like the guy, but he clearly understands the fundamentals of team basketball.

What we are seeing is that we don't have players with a high skill set to create for others. That's a reflection on the team dynamics, not the coach.

Frank is an unselfish passing guard....Probably the only one on the team. But he continues to get pressured into being more selfish. Trier on the other hand, is more advanced than Frank on offense, because Trier's playing style is iso ball....Put Trier on a system type team, he will not look good.

Frank probably has more value now than what he will have in the future.

I'm on record saying we missed on Dennis Smith Jr....Similar to Trier, he's the type of selfish guard NYer's appreciate. Frank is more old school unselfish type, which is not todays NBA. But Franks game style fits the current Euro league games. They play more system ball and less Iso Ball.

honestly I was never a dennis smith fan. The fact that we got Trier makes it a non issue. Id rather have Trier and Frank

Dennis Smith may not be a winner right now....He probably doesn't make his players better YET.

But his natural scoring abilities (just like Trier) would've had the Garden rocking. We would probably lose the same amount of games, but at least you will be entertained.

BTW....I live in Dallas, so I see and hear all the Dennis Smith talks. And every highlight play, I'm thinking man, the Garden fans would've loved him. Just like Trier is starting to grow on everybody. But are scoring guards. Smith is a few inches smaller than Trier, but jumps a few inches higher.

Frank is not even in the same ball park, on offense. And the way the game is going, with the rule changes....The value of defensive players are slowly dropping. Offense is starting to take over. That's why it's now ok to take 3 steps on layups....It's ok to jump, then land, then shoot and get an And-1 call. You breath on somebody, it's a foul.

It's unfortunate, but Frank came to NY a decade too late. He would've been the perfect backup PG (backing up Charlie Ward) back in the day, when centers ruled the NBA. Now its the guard play! And that's where Frank is behind the curve(right now). The rules don't allow him to be a lock down defender like we thought he could be.

It's a gamble to trade Frank, but now is the best time to do it, while his potential is still there. I just have a feeling he's going to be a similar player 5 years from now, if he stays in this system. Frank needs the Spurs system and coach to flourish.