Tho really, Ntilikina was pretty poor on offense last year too. :) With all that said, the difference with Frank vs the other PGs on the team is that he already has elite defense, probably getting even better.

Other defensive demons get $10-15 million per year after their rookie deals (examples have been cited before). And that's with poor offense.

If he could become a competent spot up shooter - let's say 36% 3pt%; 44% FG - ie he finishes a couple of drives to the basket on fast breaks per game, averages 10ppg/3rpg/3apg. Basically, become a younger, better version of Courtney Lee with upside. I think that's worth close to max based on potential at age ~22ish, isn't it? Teams will bank on him continuing to be a lock down defender and seeing incremental improvements on offense, creating a little more and being a competent PG for short stretches (much like how Jamal Crawford could play PG in a pinch).

CrushAlot wrote:Mudiay is in the conversation because Frank is struggling so much. Knicks don't trade for Mudiay if they are confident the point guard of the future is on the roster.

Mudiay is in the conversation because the Knicks totally ****ed up their cap sheet.

Mudiay is in the conversation because the Knicks realized they had no room/future for McBuckets and found a trade that would try to make use of his expiring deal and clean out the logjam then in the front court

Mudiay is in the conversation because the Knicks hired Phil Jackson, who proceeded to entirely **** up the point guard situation ( Rose, Jennings, Calderon ) while also gutting down many of their 2nd round picks while also ****ing up their cap sheet and those legacies are still problems today.

Mudiay is in the conversation because he's better than nothing, but that's sadly not by much.

He's not in elite physical condition and he doesn't have even a true league average three point shot. Things you can simply improve with plain raw hard work/dedication.

I keep hearing Fizdale says this or that. What else is he supposed to say? If someone shoves a mic in his face and asks about Mudiay, he's going to say he wished the Knicks didn't **** up their cap sheet and could get someone better? Because that would be the truth. If you go to work and your boss hire is own son and you have to work with him, and whether he's solid or a piece of ****, when the boss asks you what you think of the kid, what do you say? You gonna tell him his son is a piece of **** to his face if that's the case?

What Fizdale says means nothing.

What matters is what Mudiay shows on the court. He does nothing well. He's shown literally no development since he came into the league. I'd be happy to see him punch someone out just to show he actually cares instead of his typical coasting routine.

The rest of the league could have gotten Mudiay for pretty free and didn't want him. What does that tell you? That means HUNDREDS of the top and most experienced minds in the sport CORRECTLY assessed that Mudiay was outside his prime developmental window and a waste of resources/roster space/minutes. They didn't have to SETTLE for him because they didn't **** up their cap sheet as bad as the Knicks did.

A woman gets into her early 30s. She doesn't have the same bounce. She still looks sorta OK in yoga pants. She can't hide her aging as much anymore. All the drinking and partying has caught up to her. The guys who used to chase her around are chasing younger tail. She's got a couple of kids from a couple of dirtbags. She's got a dead end job and ****ty credit. She's a nag. She's got a zero personality.

But some thirsty mother****er who got no play from women saved his money. Bought himself a nice house. Invested. Worked out. But all he can offer is basically free money and be willing to put up with her ****, because he's so damn thirsty. He's not anyone's first choice, he's really the 78th choice to be honest. But he's useful for right now. Someone's gotta buy those diapers right?

The Knicks are the woman who made ****ty decisions. Those early bad decisions compounded with time. The safe job guy is the best that can be had now. It's not the wanted choice or the first choice, but it's the best of what's left. Mudiay is the thirsty mother****er. Except he didn't invest and didn't work out and didn't work on his career or his own personal development. In this version, he inherited his house, got a simple job and has a good metabolism somewhat.

If that thirsty mother****er starting working out. Getting his wardrobe right. Getting his social life right. Being on point. Getting his career and money right. When he has more to offer, then he doesn't have to settle for a busted out single mom with ****ty credit. But like anything else in life, your past choices shape your future.

The Knicks and Mudiay are in a ****ty relationship. It's not one of choice. It's one where the desperation got into a head on car wreck into the middle of the road.

Mudiay wants better? Be a better player. WORK HARDER. Have more to offer.

Knicks want a better point guard? Run a better cap sheet. Open up your options.

Do not pretend either is the first choice for other in this situation. Do no pretend actual desire factors into this.

This is a **** sandwich. Stop trying to put different kinds of cheese on it.

nykshaknbake wrote:

technomaster wrote:If he could become a competent spot up shooter - let's say 36% 3pt%; 44% FG - ie he finishes a couple of drives to the basket on fast breaks per game, averages 10ppg/3rpg/3apg. Basically, become a younger, better version of Courtney Lee with upside. I think that's worth close to max based on potential at age ~22ish, isn't it? Teams will bank on him continuing to be a lock down defender and seeing incremental improvements on offense, creating a little more and being a competent PG for short stretches (much like how Jamal Crawford could play PG in a pinch).

I would be ecstatic if he becomes an elite 3 and D guy, but how is that worth the Max? Max contracts given to merely good players make them albatrosses that weigh a team down for years.

Two words: Nick Batum.

Let's look at some top defenders and their first big contracts:
* Andre Roberson - 3yr, $30m. He's all D, no 3. If Ntilikina fails to develop beyond his current state, he'll still have better ball handling and passing skills than Roberson.
* Robert Covington - 4yr, $47m. He's a legit 3 & D player. Interestingly he went undrafted. He's got All-NBA Defensive hardware.
* Kawhi Leonard - 5yr, $94m. When he signed the contract, he was coming off his 4th season where he produced 16.5ppg, 2.5apg, 7.2rpg, 2.3spg and won the defensive player of the year. Just the prior year, he averaged only 12.8ppg and folks were thinking Danny Green might be the better player. This was basically a max deal at the time. (DPOTY is a big deal, though)
* Marcus Smart - 4yr, $52m. Just this off-season, he's the best projection at the moment. $13m/yr. This guy cannot shot, he bricks layups
* Avery Bradley - 2yr, $25m. Another defensive guy. He's a legit 3 & D guy, though at 6'2" not nearly as flexible.
* Nick Batum - 5yr, $120m. Holy crap, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Similarly sized, similar skill set. Ntilikina is a better defender already... This is a pretty good extrapolation of what Ntilikina could become if he doesn't develop a killer instinct on offense.

On the positive side for Frank (when teams are evaluating him come his contract year):
* among the youngest to enter the league since they stopped letting in high school players.
* still growing. He might be 6'7" 220lbs, 7'1" wingspan in his prime
* has elite ballhanding/passing playmaking as a SG/SF...
* if you believe he can function as a PG he brings unique value to that position (though you might say his handing/passing/vision for PG is suboptimal
* already shows elite defensive skills and with better knowledge can still refine that part of his game
* his shooting mechanics are sound... he just needs hit his f##@ing shots.

Batum will be a cautionary tale, but teams will invest big in potential.

technomaster wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

technomaster wrote:If he could become a competent spot up shooter - let's say 36% 3pt%; 44% FG - ie he finishes a couple of drives to the basket on fast breaks per game, averages 10ppg/3rpg/3apg. Basically, become a younger, better version of Courtney Lee with upside. I think that's worth close to max based on potential at age ~22ish, isn't it? Teams will bank on him continuing to be a lock down defender and seeing incremental improvements on offense, creating a little more and being a competent PG for short stretches (much like how Jamal Crawford could play PG in a pinch).

I would be ecstatic if he becomes an elite 3 and D guy, but how is that worth the Max? Max contracts given to merely good players make them albatrosses that weigh a team down for years.

Two words: Nick Batum.

Let's look at some top defenders and their first big contracts:
* Andre Roberson - 3yr, $30m. He's all D, no 3. If Ntilikina fails to develop beyond his current state, he'll still have better ball handling and passing skills than Roberson.
* Robert Covington - 4yr, $47m. He's a legit 3 & D player. Interestingly he went undrafted. He's got All-NBA Defensive hardware.
* Kawhi Leonard - 5yr, $94m. When he signed the contract, he was coming off his 4th season where he produced 16.5ppg, 2.5apg, 7.2rpg, 2.3spg and won the defensive player of the year. Just the prior year, he averaged only 12.8ppg and folks were thinking Danny Green might be the better player. This was basically a max deal at the time. (DPOTY is a big deal, though)
* Marcus Smart - 4yr, $52m. Just this off-season, he's the best projection at the moment. $13m/yr. This guy cannot shot, he bricks layups
* Avery Bradley - 2yr, $25m. Another defensive guy. He's a legit 3 & D guy, though at 6'2" not nearly as flexible.
* Nick Batum - 5yr, $120m. Holy crap, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Similarly sized, similar skill set. Ntilikina is a better defender already... This is a pretty good extrapolation of what Ntilikina could become if he doesn't develop a killer instinct on offense.

On the positive side for Frank (when teams are evaluating him come his contract year):
* among the youngest to enter the league since they stopped letting in high school players.
* still growing. He might be 6'7" 220lbs, 7'1" wingspan in his prime
* has elite ballhanding/passing playmaking as a SG/SF...
* if you believe he can function as a PG he brings unique value to that position (though you might say his handing/passing/vision for PG is suboptimal
* already shows elite defensive skills and with better knowledge can still refine that part of his game
* his shooting mechanics are sound... he just needs hit his f##@ing shots.

Batum will be a cautionary tale, but teams will invest big in potential.

Also elite ballhandling(even as a SG) and Frank Ntilikina don't belong in the same sentence. I find it a bit alarming that everyone says his form is great and he still can't hit anything. There seems to be less to correct that could yield big gains(You coaching types educate me if my thinking is off here). Also is there precedence for a PG shooting as poorly as Frank becoming a good marksman? Or is there more evidence that the player continues to shoot poorly or exits the league. What is the usual course? It seems to be a foolish plan to expect the exceptional rather than the usual.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Uptown wrote:First and foremost, both Frank and Mudiay are playing like back-up guards on a good team at best....There's a good chance that neither one of them are the answer to our future pg question, but in the meantime, they are all we have and both have a chance to compete, gain experience and out-duel the other....

Over the last 5 games, here are Franks numbers: 6 pts, 4 asts, 1 rbd, 2 TO's, 31% fgs, 16% 3ptfg...Frank has been putrid on the offensive end, yet when we read the game thread of some of the threads here, we see the same excuses: He's only 20, he needs more experience or Chauncey Billups developed later on in his career so Frank has a chance to do the same.

Mudiay doesn't get the same treatment. Since when did 22 become old? So, Frank can develop like Billups but Mudiay can't? Obviously, Mudiay struggled in Denver, and last year he didn't look too good in his brief stint here. But nobody on the roster looked good last year playing in the toxic environment created by our former Prez and lame duck coach. Case and point, how much better does Hardaway and Dotson look this year as opposed to last year?

Over the last 5 games, here are Mudiays numbers: 10 pts, 3 asts, 4 rbds, 2 TO's, 47% fgs, 36% 3ptfg...I'm not a big Mudiay fan, but I call it like I see it...He has a better feel for running the point than Frank does and as light as Mudiay's numbers are, they are better than Franks and he has outplayed Frank since his return. Mudiay has a 15.34 PER compared to Franks 7.74 PER...To be fair, Mudiays PER are over 5-6 games while Franks covers the season.

I get it though, Frank was drafted by us and is homegrown while Mudiay was essentially picked up off the scrap heap and is considered an outsider. He will always be at a disadvantage. Just check the game threads, Mudiay can make 3 good plays in a row, as soon as he makes one bad pass, people are ready to send him down to the G league or its the same ole Mudiay from his Denver days when he was 20.... Homegrown or no, I want a pg who can put as much pressure on the defense as he can on the offense....In the end, Fiz has created a competitive environment and if this trend continues, Mudiay may and should take the reigns from Frank.

Your being generous.

When Frank plays well we are a way more competitive team. He offers impact when he produces. Competed vs GS, Blew Nets out, Handled ATL.

GS game is the standard we would like him to play at. So the question is, was that just Frank randomly bringing his game to that level. Or was there something within the game plan that he felt comfortable with that allowed him to comfortably play at that level?

Or will he just be an enigma?

When Frank plays well offensively, its few and far between...Frank's best all around game was against the Warriors and ironically enough, Mudiay's best game last year was against the Warriors when he put up 20 and 7. After that career game (in a NY uni) just like Frank, he seemed to regress. Confidence is an issue for both of them. After the back to back good games vs the Warriors and Nyets, that should have been Frank's launching pad, instead he regressed back to the passive player he has shown to be more often than not....

I can't blame it on the game plan because whenever Trey Burke's number is called and takes over the pg duty, he plays his game and gets up shots regardless....I can't imagine Fiz telling Frank to be passive... I know he's only young, but maybe Frank is showing us who he is...

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Mudiay is in the conversation because Frank is struggling so much. Knicks don't trade for Mudiay if they are confident the point guard of the future is on the roster.

Dont agree with this logic AT ALL.

Knicks had Trey, Frank and Jarrett Jack on the roster last year. We all know that Jack would not be long for the Knicks roster. Frank was one of the youngest guys in the league and there was no doubt from anyone that he would take time. Would he start to show his second year or third or later or if at all as a PG?

Trey Burke is also an iffy consideration for the Knicks. Had a decent half season with the Knicks but hasn't kept that magic going.

You still need PG bodies. Trade for them, sign them off the scrap heap. Frank is obviously not ready, but for me one thing has nothing to do with the other, especially when you think about the "condifdence" of the PG future.

I mean, it literally could have meant they wanted to take Mudiay for spin for a year and see what they had.

They wanted Elfrid Payton but the price was too high. They were targeting point guards at the deadline after picking a point in the lottery.

Yup. You haven't really added anything. Payton and Mudiay the same thing.

They had Jack, Baker, Frank, and Burke. Do most teams target a fifth point guard at the deadline if they are set with their starter? By the end of the season 1/3 of the roster played point. You think the Knicks at the deadline were trying to trade for a former lottery pick, early twenties point guard because 4 bodies including a rookie lottery pick weren't enough for the position?

Yes, absolutely. Jack wasn't coming back. Baker is barely a backup PG. That leaves Burke, who was just a G-League guy, and Frank.

Did you think Frank, last January, was a legit starting PG? I didn't. If that's the case, you go out and get more of them. It's called planning just in case.

Payton and Mudiay aint the same player...If the Knicks would have traded for Payton, he's the starting pg here for sure. Not that he's a future allstar, but he's better than Mudiay and Frank. He's 24 years old, and if the front office is targeting him and players of his age, that means I'm unsure that my 8th pick in the draft can run the point.

Frank absolutely did not look like a legit starting pg in January nor does he now....GM's are paid millions to evaluate and project, perhaps they see/saw something that made them want to get another young pg because they were unsure about the one they have...

For sure. It also means you dont think Frank is ready right now but needs another year or 2 before he IS ready to take over. I think that's still true.

martin wrote:

Uptown wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:Mudiay is in the conversation because Frank is struggling so much. Knicks don't trade for Mudiay if they are confident the point guard of the future is on the roster.

Dont agree with this logic AT ALL.

Knicks had Trey, Frank and Jarrett Jack on the roster last year. We all know that Jack would not be long for the Knicks roster. Frank was one of the youngest guys in the league and there was no doubt from anyone that he would take time. Would he start to show his second year or third or later or if at all as a PG?

Trey Burke is also an iffy consideration for the Knicks. Had a decent half season with the Knicks but hasn't kept that magic going.

You still need PG bodies. Trade for them, sign them off the scrap heap. Frank is obviously not ready, but for me one thing has nothing to do with the other, especially when you think about the "condifdence" of the PG future.

I mean, it literally could have meant they wanted to take Mudiay for spin for a year and see what they had.

They wanted Elfrid Payton but the price was too high. They were targeting point guards at the deadline after picking a point in the lottery.

Yup. You haven't really added anything. Payton and Mudiay the same thing.

They had Jack, Baker, Frank, and Burke. Do most teams target a fifth point guard at the deadline if they are set with their starter? By the end of the season 1/3 of the roster played point. You think the Knicks at the deadline were trying to trade for a former lottery pick, early twenties point guard because 4 bodies including a rookie lottery pick weren't enough for the position?

Yes, absolutely. Jack wasn't coming back. Baker is barely a backup PG. That leaves Burke, who was just a G-League guy, and Frank.

Did you think Frank, last January, was a legit starting PG? I didn't. If that's the case, you go out and get more of them. It's called planning just in case.

Payton and Mudiay aint the same player...If the Knicks would have traded for Payton, he's the starting pg here for sure. Not that he's a future allstar, but he's better than Mudiay and Frank. He's 24 years old, and if the front office is targeting him and players of his age, that means I'm unsure that my 8th pick in the draft can run the point.

Frank absolutely did not look like a legit starting pg in January nor does he now....GM's are paid millions to evaluate and project, perhaps they see/saw something that made them want to get another young pg because they were unsure about the one they have...

For sure. It also means you dont think Frank is ready right now but needs another year or 2 before he IS ready to take over. I think that's still true.

It's pretty standard. Frank didn't show enough to lock down the spot. They didn't want to put all their eggs in one basket. If Sessions played better he would have been the starter. Jack overachieved and held the starting spot. When Jack faded. Burke was tearing up G-League and was brought up, and Mudiay was had at the deadline. Knicks will keep turning over stones to see what can be a keeper. Just like they added Vonleh and Herzonia this off-season.