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martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  2:16 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

So how did you come to the conclusion that Kanter was a better than average rim protector? Gonna show me you data?

See Kanter discouraging players from going to the rim by putting his body on the ball carrier, forcing him to give up the ball.

I see Kanter boxing out multiple players (often alone) for a defensive rebound, preventing a second chance opportunity.

This is all a part of defending the rim IMO, its not just how many times Kanter blocked a shot, or picked up a defender the backcourt didnt.

When you factor in everything Kanter does under the rim, he is doing a better than average job of protecting it, not by much.


Not so bad that it overshadows what offensive skills Kanter brings to the table, some of which are elite.

If you want to ignore whatever isnt put into numbers, thats your prerogative, Bobby Brown. I dont go strictly by numbers, if I did we wouldnt be having this conversation. Cant find all the answers there.

So lets be clear on this. You've got nothing but your own eye test to come to the conclusion that Kanter is an above average rim protector. You should have said that up front instead of directly saying you put out the stats previously.

Everyone has got different eye tests, that's why they got stats out there to try to quantify things. Defensive stats are hard.

Your eye test is just an opinion. Poorly informed one IMHO.

If Kanter is an elite offensive player and an above average rim protector as you think he is, he would have played a lot more minutes in his career instead of being glued to the bench for most games late in the 4 when it counts.

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arkrud
Posts: 31162
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
11/7/2018  2:32 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  2:33 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  2:52 PM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

So how did you come to the conclusion that Kanter was a better than average rim protector? Gonna show me you data?

See Kanter discouraging players from going to the rim by putting his body on the ball carrier, forcing him to give up the ball.

I see Kanter boxing out multiple players (often alone) for a defensive rebound, preventing a second chance opportunity.

This is all a part of defending the rim IMO, its not just how many times Kanter blocked a shot, or picked up a defender the backcourt didnt.

When you factor in everything Kanter does under the rim, he is doing a better than average job of protecting it, not by much.


Not so bad that it overshadows what offensive skills Kanter brings to the table, some of which are elite.

If you want to ignore whatever isnt put into numbers, thats your prerogative, Bobby Brown. I dont go strictly by numbers, if I did we wouldnt be having this conversation. Cant find all the answers there.

So lets be clear on this. You've got nothing but your own eye test to come to the conclusion that Kanter is an above average rim protector. You should have said that up front instead of directly saying you put out the stats previously.

Everyone has got different eye tests, that's why they got stats out there to try to quantify things. Defensive stats are hard.

Your eye test is just an opinion. Poorly informed one IMHO.

If Kanter is an elite offensive player and an above average rim protector as you think he is, he would have played a lot more minutes in his career instead of being glued to the bench for most games late in the 4 when it counts.

There you go again, relying strictly on numbers. Kanter didnt start really focusing on conditioning until the summer he was traded to NY.

One of the reasons he stuck to the bench is the extra weight that was slowing him down on both ends of the court.

You're not a fan of Kanter, I get it, but you go that extra mile, have since he was traded. Not the first to point this out. Not sure why.

knicks1248
Posts: 37903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/7/2018  3:19 PM
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

I don't know too many knick fans the are not loyal, they may criticize the team for their constant short comings, but at the end of the day they will remain loyal.

Im not saying the knicks are not on the right path, but as I said before, Fiz mans up to his mistakes, unlike fisher, and JH, he just has to show he is a smart coach and his players are learning and not making the same mistakes over and over again...if the moves he's making back fire, your not going to look to smart, and development mode wont save you

When the knicks grab their big FA this summer (if the manage to get one) the honeymoon is over, you will be in win now mode.

ES
martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  3:28 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

So how did you come to the conclusion that Kanter was a better than average rim protector? Gonna show me you data?

See Kanter discouraging players from going to the rim by putting his body on the ball carrier, forcing him to give up the ball.

I see Kanter boxing out multiple players (often alone) for a defensive rebound, preventing a second chance opportunity.

This is all a part of defending the rim IMO, its not just how many times Kanter blocked a shot, or picked up a defender the backcourt didnt.

When you factor in everything Kanter does under the rim, he is doing a better than average job of protecting it, not by much.


Not so bad that it overshadows what offensive skills Kanter brings to the table, some of which are elite.

If you want to ignore whatever isnt put into numbers, thats your prerogative, Bobby Brown. I dont go strictly by numbers, if I did we wouldnt be having this conversation. Cant find all the answers there.

So lets be clear on this. You've got nothing but your own eye test to come to the conclusion that Kanter is an above average rim protector. You should have said that up front instead of directly saying you put out the stats previously.

Everyone has got different eye tests, that's why they got stats out there to try to quantify things. Defensive stats are hard.

Your eye test is just an opinion. Poorly informed one IMHO.

If Kanter is an elite offensive player and an above average rim protector as you think he is, he would have played a lot more minutes in his career instead of being glued to the bench for most games late in the 4 when it counts.

There you go again, relying strictly on numbers. Kanter didnt start really focusing on conditioning until the summer he was traded to NY.

One of the reasons he stuck to the bench is the extra weight that was slowing him down on both ends of the court.

You're not a fan of Kanter, I get it, but you go that extra mile, have since he was traded. Not the first to point this out. Not sure why.

You're not sure why? Cause he sucks defensively and only gets in shape during contract years?

Run the same numbers again for this year and the same things pan out.

How many more excuses you gonna have for Kanter before you realize he is not really that good at one end of the court?

That's just reality, not my hope. I want the team and players to succeed.

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GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  3:44 PM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

So how did you come to the conclusion that Kanter was a better than average rim protector? Gonna show me you data?

See Kanter discouraging players from going to the rim by putting his body on the ball carrier, forcing him to give up the ball.

I see Kanter boxing out multiple players (often alone) for a defensive rebound, preventing a second chance opportunity.

This is all a part of defending the rim IMO, its not just how many times Kanter blocked a shot, or picked up a defender the backcourt didnt.

When you factor in everything Kanter does under the rim, he is doing a better than average job of protecting it, not by much.


Not so bad that it overshadows what offensive skills Kanter brings to the table, some of which are elite.

If you want to ignore whatever isnt put into numbers, thats your prerogative, Bobby Brown. I dont go strictly by numbers, if I did we wouldnt be having this conversation. Cant find all the answers there.

So lets be clear on this. You've got nothing but your own eye test to come to the conclusion that Kanter is an above average rim protector. You should have said that up front instead of directly saying you put out the stats previously.

Everyone has got different eye tests, that's why they got stats out there to try to quantify things. Defensive stats are hard.

Your eye test is just an opinion. Poorly informed one IMHO.

If Kanter is an elite offensive player and an above average rim protector as you think he is, he would have played a lot more minutes in his career instead of being glued to the bench for most games late in the 4 when it counts.

There you go again, relying strictly on numbers. Kanter didnt start really focusing on conditioning until the summer he was traded to NY.

One of the reasons he stuck to the bench is the extra weight that was slowing him down on both ends of the court.

You're not a fan of Kanter, I get it, but you go that extra mile, have since he was traded. Not the first to point this out. Not sure why.

You're not sure why? Cause he sucks defensively and only gets in shape during contract years?

Run the same numbers again for this year and the same things pan out.

How many more excuses you gonna have for Kanter before you realize he is not really that good at one end of the court?

That's just reality, not my hope. I want the team and players to succeed.

Not sure why you are so fing hyped when it comes to Kanter. You harp on his defense to the exclusion of almost everything else. You cant carry on a conversation about him without getting seriously pissy, like right now. In spite of my repeated attempts in this thread to keep it friendly.

As I said. Dont know why. Kanter always seems to be the trigger.

StarksEwing1
Posts: 31030
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

11/7/2018  3:57 PM
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games
knicks1248
Posts: 37903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/7/2018  4:56 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  4:57 PM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

ES
arkrud
Posts: 31162
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
11/7/2018  5:34 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  5:34 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

It's a good Russian idiom: "One should not show a half done job to a fool".
Club in the beginning of a rebuild needs assets.
Some to build a foundation, some for trades to balance the roster.
Are those assets first round picks, second round, un-drafted, or veterans is irrelevant.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
newyorknewyork
Posts: 28107
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
11/7/2018  7:34 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

knicks1248
Posts: 37903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/8/2018  8:31 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

ES
Uptown
Posts: 27002
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 4/1/2008
Member: #1883

11/8/2018  9:38 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

So Perry said nothing on record that would indicate that he's upset or what he may have been upset about, but we are going by a second hand source that was judging his body language and was able to assume (based on body language) that he's chasing wins as opposed to developing the youth? Good call

Speaking losing for 5 years, the Lakers won 35, 26, 17, 21, and 27 games over the last 5 years, yet LeBron found them desirable enough. Not to mention Paul George and Kwahi are on record as wanting to play for that tanking franchise.... Go figure...

StarksEwing1
Posts: 31030
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

11/8/2018  9:50 AM
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

So Perry said nothing on record that would indicate that he's upset or what he may have been upset about, but we are going by a second hand source that was judging his body language and was able to assume (based on body language) that he's chasing wins as opposed to developing the youth? Good call

Speaking losing for 5 years, the Lakers won 35, 26, 17, 21, and 27 games over the last 5 years, yet LeBron found them desirable enough. Not to mention Paul George and Kwahi are on record as wanting to play for that tanking franchise.... Go figure...

Exactly. Free agents arent gonna find us more attractive just because we won a few extra games. They are gonna see the young talents we have drafted including our best player in KP. They see Fizdale as a great players coach and respect him. Adding another good young talent at the draft is another plus. I understand rebuilding is tough to watch sometimes but its the smart thing to do. Hell remember the Warriors. They stunk for years and years. I remember when they booed the owner. Then they started making better decisions at the draft and became a contender long before Durant even showed up
knicks1248
Posts: 37903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/8/2018  10:42 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/8/2018  10:42 AM
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

So Perry said nothing on record that would indicate that he's upset or what he may have been upset about, but we are going by a second hand source that was judging his body language and was able to assume (based on body language) that he's chasing wins as opposed to developing the youth? Good call

Speaking losing for 5 years, the Lakers won 35, 26, 17, 21, and 27 games over the last 5 years, yet LeBron found them desirable enough. Not to mention Paul George and Kwahi are on record as wanting to play for that tanking franchise.... Go figure...

LBJ went there because of his brand and the many off court business opportunities. He said it himself, the roster is as lopsided as they come. Dude has 3 rings and about a dozen trips to the finals, his goal is to be a billionaire going forward

Kawhi and PG3 are from the LA area and are life long fans of the team.

We all seen with our own 2 eyes that we haven't been in a winning situation in quite sometime and because of that we have had drastic changes from the roster to the FO to the coaching staff every yr.

In order to change the culture in NY you have to start winning, what losing team has a great culture that everybody is running to sign up to be part of, unless it come with a BIG PAYDAY, see AMARE, MELO, Noah..

ES
newyorknewyork
Posts: 28107
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
11/8/2018  10:45 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks



Knicks have operated with the same mindset that you are preaching. What have been the results Knicks1248, and why? Will be a question that you avoid at all cost. And will have no credibility until you can honestly answer the question. I'm going to leave space in between until my next paragraph so that you can't just gloss it over.


I don't need to spin anything, i'm telling you the reality, your the one upset about it. Knicks have put Courtney Lee on the trade block since the off season. Knicks are holding off on extending KP until FA. Kanter is coming off the bench, Burke didn't play one min last night, Frank, Dotson, Mitch, Vonleh continue to start. These are all facts. Perry didn't pursue Jimmy Butler to attempt to win now. Perry hasn't made any moves to add salary past this season. Perry hasn't moved any of the young pieces for veteran help to win now. I just named you the decisions made from our head coach and GM. Both have one common theme in mind.

These decisions are being made because they feel it will result in a higher level, more consistency and longevity in their ability to win in the long haul.

You are also either purposely missing the point or just don't get it. The plan isn't to continue to tank season after season to load up on draft picks. Its to capitalize on this one season which KP is out with injury.

Cavs have been in the finals the last what 4 seasons and won a championship. Lue has 3 finals appearances. Many of the players on the current Cavs team have been apart of winning at the highest level. They did go to the finals last season. They are the perfect example to what you claim. And yet without Lebron.... according to you all that winning should have created an environment that carried over so why hasn't it? Another question you will avoid at all cost.

fishmike
Posts: 48906
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
11/8/2018  11:14 AM
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

So Perry said nothing on record that would indicate that he's upset or what he may have been upset about, but we are going by a second hand source that was judging his body language and was able to assume (based on body language) that he's chasing wins as opposed to developing the youth? Good call

Speaking losing for 5 years, the Lakers won 35, 26, 17, 21, and 27 games over the last 5 years, yet LeBron found them desirable enough. Not to mention Paul George and Kwahi are on record as wanting to play for that tanking franchise.... Go figure...

WARNING! LOGIC BEING INTRODUCED TO THIS DISCUSSION MAY RESULT IN PROCESS knicks1248.EXE ENCOUNTERING A FATAL CRASH
Nalod
Posts: 56209
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
11/8/2018  12:28 PM
Somewhere there was a fan in boston who thought the future was Issiah Thomas and Jae Crowder. You can't see what has not happened.
Rainman1248 does not understand that talent must be acquired/developed before real change can happen.
Boston put in place a not ready for prime time coach and employed a process of trading good players, getting picks and signing free agents. Nobody saw Kyrie coming. or Horford. Perhaps Gorden Haywood was telegraphed because of the connection with stevens but who would think a team balanced with young prospects and in prime veterans could be so accomplished?
Tatum proved to be a stroke of genius!! Weird thing is Philly departs form its process post Hinkie and actually trades UP to nab fultz!! Lesson? Don't deviate from the process!!!!LOL!!!

Rainman1248 has all the abstract of what to do but no vision because it can't be seen. Most fans have the abstract "Process" and manage the anxiety of knowing fundamentally if you have picks, you draft quality players. Not all pan out. Takes time. Just because it has not does not mean it can't. There is no genetic propensity to failure in a city. its not in the air or in the water.

My opinion is Enes does what he does but we don't win or lose just because of him. He is part of the process and his ceiling is not high enough. He has been beaten out by Gortat who did not post better numbers but eventually became a very good player. He was a back up to Adams who might not post up better numbers than Enes, but is better for his team. Mitch is not nearly as good as Kanter at the moment but his ceiling is much higher because the teams ceiling is high with Mitch.

This is Kanters problem. Eventually it becomes about the money and the ceiling.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Nalod
Posts: 56209
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
11/8/2018  1:03 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

Can't win without Talent.
Can't draft without picks.
Other lottery Castoffs are not blue chip prospects. They are low % reclamation projects.
Winning is symptom of things that happened before. Winning is not a cure, its symptom.
Antibiotics kill bacteria. They won't cure "everything". Won't kill a virus. Won't help you write better.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
knicks1248
Posts: 37903
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
11/8/2018  4:38 PM
fishmike wrote:
Uptown wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

So Perry said nothing on record that would indicate that he's upset or what he may have been upset about, but we are going by a second hand source that was judging his body language and was able to assume (based on body language) that he's chasing wins as opposed to developing the youth? Good call

Speaking losing for 5 years, the Lakers won 35, 26, 17, 21, and 27 games over the last 5 years, yet LeBron found them desirable enough. Not to mention Paul George and Kwahi are on record as wanting to play for that tanking franchise.... Go figure...

WARNING! LOGIC BEING INTRODUCED TO THIS DISCUSSION MAY RESULT IN PROCESS knicks1248.EXE ENCOUNTERING A FATAL CRASH

Ok derek fisher

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11/8/2018  4:53 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

I stated my opinion and I am not trying to change yours.
My believe is that it is not possible to change other people opinion.
In 1-2 years we will see if you or my opinion was closer to reality.
You think that Fiz is same things as Fisher, Hornachek, and other pure souls in the grinder of MSG.
I think this time it is different and we get a real deal. That this team is for real, Fiz will be around for a while, and Knicks will be contending in 3-5 years.
Future will tell the story.
AS of now I am happy and optimistic and you sound miserable.
Good enough for me.

he doesnt believe in building through the draft. He doesnt understand that it takes some patience but we have built a solid foundation and free agents notice that more than winning a few extra games

we have 8 lottery picks( all of whom were picked within the last 4 to 5 drafts) on the roster, i guess we need 12 to make a complete rebuild..ohhh..kaayyy, now i get it..smh

What other contender has that many 1st round picks on there roster..since you know so much

None of that matters to be real. The potential to land a blue chip prospect to pair with KP and a FA this off season is greater than your perceived downside and is the best route to contend. The players that will be here next yr are getting burn win or lose and working on chemistry.

Knicks have been without their franchise player and first round pick so far this season. Its one thing if the team just sucked even with KP because he was a stat producer who didn't contribute to winning. But KP has proven to be a real impact player. So being able to capitalize on missing KP to add an elite blue chip prospect is the smart play.

Now if Knox comes in a takes the league by storm and everything then clicks with Frank-Knox-Mitch around Hardaway and the rest of the cast leading the team to 38 wins(random number) or so then so be it. As winning would be a result of the young talents maturation. But best case may be they are inconsistent during his rookie yr and then the group off next season after we secured the blue chip additions.

Knicks GM Scott Perry is on the road with the team. An eye witness said Perry was visibly upset during portions of the first half in Atlanta. The Knicks gave up 57 points to the Hawks and trailed by three after two quarters. Doesn't seem like Perry has any interest in tanking.

You really think the FO is more interested in Blue chip prospects, you really think the FO don't care about losses. Every coach/GM in every sport will be mostly judge by wins and losses at the end of the day, I don't care how you spin it. You want to know why, becaase WINNING cures everything, It's like a antibiotic.

You know what comes out of winning, players getting better, chemistry improves, confidence increasing,team looks more attractive, your assets stock rises, Gm's look smarter. It's only easy to be patient when you see improvement.

You cant lose 52 games 5 yrs in a row(all evaluating talent yrs) and think your improving just because you didn't trade your draft picks

Where is the quote from? I thought I had read all of the articles about last nights game but I didn't see or missed this. I do think it is a reach for a reporter to post about body language and not an actual source.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak

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