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GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  10:00 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  10:02 AM
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

AUTOADVERT
arkrud
Posts: 31162
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
11/7/2018  10:29 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  10:31 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  10:34 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

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GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  10:41 AM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 22911
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

11/7/2018  10:52 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  11:03 AM
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

The stats above reinforce my opinion that you can over analyze a good player to the point of getting rid of him. Only to realize the replacement is much worse.

By these standards we should be going after the likes of Lucas Noriega, Aron Baynes, Ivica Zubac, Zach Collins, and Tarik Black? Do you really think they would make the Knicks better? If not, who would you replace Kanter with?

martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  10:53 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

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martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  10:58 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

The stats above reinforce my opinion that you can over analyze a good player to the point of getting rid of him. Only to realize the replacement is much worse.

By these standards we should be going after the likes of Lucas Noriega, Aron Baynes, Ivica Zubac, Zach Collins, and Tarik Black? Do you really think they wpuld make the Knicks better? If not, who wpuld you replace Kanter with?

Too much "Beans Ball" like for me.

It's about looking at the stats and coming to conclusions. There will always be outliers. For the particular link you chose there was no way to filter on minimum minutes played, or Games Started. It would eliminate some of those, but the general outcome is the same.

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HofstraBBall
Posts: 22911
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

11/7/2018  10:58 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Which players do you think should habe been in for the last couple of minutes?

knicks1248
Posts: 37903
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Member: #582
11/7/2018  11:13 AM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  11:14 AM
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario

ES
GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  11:15 AM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 22911
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

11/7/2018  11:17 AM
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

The stats above reinforce my opinion that you can over analyze a good player to the point of getting rid of him. Only to realize the replacement is much worse.

By these standards we should be going after the likes of Lucas Noriega, Aron Baynes, Ivica Zubac, Zach Collins, and Tarik Black? Do you really think they wpuld make the Knicks better? If not, who wpuld you replace Kanter with?

Too much "Beans Ball" like for me.

It's about looking at the stats and coming to conclusions. There will always be outliers. For the particular link you chose there was no way to filter on minimum minutes played, or Games Started. It would eliminate some of those, but the general outcome is the same.

Agree. Stats show more insight. However, do we really not know what Kanters strengths and weaknesses are? Are there any NBA players without weaknesses? The point is, so many times fans are quick to say what a player cant do. Advanced stats make it a lot easier to do so. They cry out for teams to get rid of them. Then realize the next guy also has weaknesses. And why are we using micro stats to diminish larger stats? 13th in the NBA in bounds use to mean something.

If we use these same micro measures to analyze who should be a member of the Knicks, we would have no one. Frank can't shoot, dont need to check out his advanced stats on offense. Timmy doesn't pass and takes plays off on D. KP doesn't rebound, pass and is too skinny. But I dont think anyone will say those players are not good players. Now if we have someone that is a better all around player to replace them, then I'm all for it. But again, advanced stats or not, who is a better option at 5 for Knicks?

martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  11:38 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

The stats above reinforce my opinion that you can over analyze a good player to the point of getting rid of him. Only to realize the replacement is much worse.

By these standards we should be going after the likes of Lucas Noriega, Aron Baynes, Ivica Zubac, Zach Collins, and Tarik Black? Do you really think they wpuld make the Knicks better? If not, who wpuld you replace Kanter with?

Too much "Beans Ball" like for me.

It's about looking at the stats and coming to conclusions. There will always be outliers. For the particular link you chose there was no way to filter on minimum minutes played, or Games Started. It would eliminate some of those, but the general outcome is the same.

Agree. Stats show more insight. However, do we really not know what Kanters strengths and weaknesses are? Are there any NBA players without weaknesses? The point is, so many times fans are quick to say what a player cant do. Advanced stats make it a lot easier to do so. They cry out for teams to get rid of them. Then realize the next guy also has weaknesses. And why are we using micro stats to diminish larger stats? 13th in the NBA in bounds use to mean something.

If we use these same micro measures to analyze who should be a member of the Knicks, we would have no one. Frank can't shoot, dont need to check out his advanced stats on offense. Timmy doesn't pass and takes plays off on D. KP doesn't rebound, pass and is too skinny. But I dont think anyone will say those players are not good players. Now if we have someone that is a better all around player to replace them, then I'm all for it. But again, advanced stats or not, who is a better option at 5 for Knicks?

Yes, some of us do not know what Kanter's weaknesses are, that's why I posted the links. GustavBahler made the assertion that Kanter is an above average rim protector, he is now backpedaling very quickly and trying to change the topic at all costs.

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martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  11:39 AM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

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HofstraBBall
Posts: 22911
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Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

11/7/2018  12:08 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/7/2018  12:09 PM
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

The stats above reinforce my opinion that you can over analyze a good player to the point of getting rid of him. Only to realize the replacement is much worse.

By these standards we should be going after the likes of Lucas Noriega, Aron Baynes, Ivica Zubac, Zach Collins, and Tarik Black? Do you really think they wpuld make the Knicks better? If not, who wpuld you replace Kanter with?

Too much "Beans Ball" like for me.

It's about looking at the stats and coming to conclusions. There will always be outliers. For the particular link you chose there was no way to filter on minimum minutes played, or Games Started. It would eliminate some of those, but the general outcome is the same.

Agree. Stats show more insight. However, do we really not know what Kanters strengths and weaknesses are? Are there any NBA players without weaknesses? The point is, so many times fans are quick to say what a player cant do. Advanced stats make it a lot easier to do so. They cry out for teams to get rid of them. Then realize the next guy also has weaknesses. And why are we using micro stats to diminish larger stats? 13th in the NBA in bounds use to mean something.

If we use these same micro measures to analyze who should be a member of the Knicks, we would have no one. Frank can't shoot, dont need to check out his advanced stats on offense. Timmy doesn't pass and takes plays off on D. KP doesn't rebound, pass and is too skinny. But I dont think anyone will say those players are not good players. Now if we have someone that is a better all around player to replace them, then I'm all for it. But again, advanced stats or not, who is a better option at 5 for Knicks?

Yes, some of us do not know what Kanter's weaknesses are, that's why I posted the links. GustavBahler made the assertion that Kanter is an above average rim protector, he is now backpedaling very quickly and trying to change the topic at all costs.

OK, some may not know Kanters defense is not top notch (not many). And would agree that Kanter is not known as a good rim protector. But think you can agree the discussion is not about which micro stat is more accurate but more about Kamters true worth.

Btw, on the point of "Rim protection"....I would argue that this is another meaningless stat. Looking at where the NBA game is going, what coaches are looking for at the five and what the high tier teams have to contend with. Fact is that rim protection will not and is not a high commodity any longer. You have high pace three point shooting offenses out there. You have coaches going to centers that can also shoot the 3. Think a more valid argument against Kanter can be that he does not fit that mold. Not sure if "Rim protection" is as relevant.

martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  1:05 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

The stats above reinforce my opinion that you can over analyze a good player to the point of getting rid of him. Only to realize the replacement is much worse.

By these standards we should be going after the likes of Lucas Noriega, Aron Baynes, Ivica Zubac, Zach Collins, and Tarik Black? Do you really think they wpuld make the Knicks better? If not, who wpuld you replace Kanter with?

Too much "Beans Ball" like for me.

It's about looking at the stats and coming to conclusions. There will always be outliers. For the particular link you chose there was no way to filter on minimum minutes played, or Games Started. It would eliminate some of those, but the general outcome is the same.

Agree. Stats show more insight. However, do we really not know what Kanters strengths and weaknesses are? Are there any NBA players without weaknesses? The point is, so many times fans are quick to say what a player cant do. Advanced stats make it a lot easier to do so. They cry out for teams to get rid of them. Then realize the next guy also has weaknesses. And why are we using micro stats to diminish larger stats? 13th in the NBA in bounds use to mean something.

If we use these same micro measures to analyze who should be a member of the Knicks, we would have no one. Frank can't shoot, dont need to check out his advanced stats on offense. Timmy doesn't pass and takes plays off on D. KP doesn't rebound, pass and is too skinny. But I dont think anyone will say those players are not good players. Now if we have someone that is a better all around player to replace them, then I'm all for it. But again, advanced stats or not, who is a better option at 5 for Knicks?

Yes, some of us do not know what Kanter's weaknesses are, that's why I posted the links. GustavBahler made the assertion that Kanter is an above average rim protector, he is now backpedaling very quickly and trying to change the topic at all costs.

OK, some may not know Kanters defense is not top notch (not many). And would agree that Kanter is not known as a good rim protector. But think you can agree the discussion is not about which micro stat is more accurate but more about Kamters true worth.

Btw, on the point of "Rim protection"....I would argue that this is another meaningless stat. Looking at where the NBA game is going, what coaches are looking for at the five and what the high tier teams have to contend with. Fact is that rim protection will not and is not a high commodity any longer. You have high pace three point shooting offenses out there. You have coaches going to centers that can also shoot the 3. Think a more valid argument against Kanter can be that he does not fit that mold. Not sure if "Rim protection" is as relevant.

The league is going towards 3 point shots and shots at the rim, away from the mid range and is PACKED with PnR.

To discourage shots at the rim.... you need rim protection. To encourage "bad" mid range shots, you need a rim protector.

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GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  1:20 PM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

martin
Posts: 47795
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
11/7/2018  1:27 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

So how did you come to the conclusion that Kanter was a better than average rim protector? Gonna show me your data?

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GustavBahler
Posts: 34948
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

11/7/2018  1:51 PM
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
martin wrote:I like the NBA stats pages, lots of filters and such.

Centers, per 36 minutes, 2017-18 season, played at least 40 games. Smooths stats out for fairness and better comparisons. Maybe you can add minimum minutes played but doesn't add much.

The numbers speak for themselves. Kanter always in bottom half of the group.

Hustle stats, Contested 2pt shots:
https://stats.nba.com/players/hustle/?sort=CONTESTED_SHOTS_2PT&dir=1&PerMode=Per36&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&CF=G*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C

Player defense < 6ft from rim:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt6/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=LT_06_PCT&dir=-1&PlayerPosition=C&CF=GP*GE*40

General Defensive Stats:
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Per36&CF=GP*GE*40&PlayerPosition=C


Ha Ha, made you look


https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1

Look at the differential. Kanter is shooting a higher pct than his opponent, while holding him to a lower FG pct. Kanter outperforms Capella in this dept. Not saying Kanter is a monster in the paint, just not liability you say he is, or was last season.

A frontcourt of Kanter/Robinson is worth checking out. If it works well, we have KP/Kanter/Robinson to rotate in the frontcourt.

KP/MitchRob would take the toughest defensive assignment, and Kanter would come off the bench, if brought back.

Surprised anyone would have a problem with that scenario, if the price is right.

That's not the benchmark we were talking about. It was about rim protection. Kanter is not an above average rim protector. He is in fact a very poor rim protector.

You just changed the topic. Which is cool and all, but not anything you had input about until you happen upon a stat you liked.

Kanter is defending the rim better than who he is playing against. Thats pretty cut and dry. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.

2017-18, 40 game minimum, Centers, sorted by the stat you think you can hand your hat on:

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-lt10/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=C&sort=PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&CF=GP*GE*40

did you notice that Kanter is on the bottom half of that stat when you sorted it? It means by that measure alone he is not very good at it.

There are 80 or so centers in the league who are better than Kanter, of about 140. Most all of them shoot a better FG% than their defensive FG%. Saying that his FG% is better than his defensive FG% is about as informative as saying the sky is blue.

He is in the BOTTOM half of the stat you think he is good at.

You understand this right?

I understand that Kanter isnt an elite defender. I understand that as Fizdale said, Kanter is a good position defender..You seem to disagree.

Obviously, Kanter didnt just play against the Centers on that list. If Kanter's D was as bad as you believe his numbers would have been in positive territory, like they were for Townes last season. Who has picked up his D this season. My problem with the characterization of Kanter's D isnt that there are holes in his D, its that the holes are so big that they're costing us games.

Robinson doesnt have the offense, the stamina that Kanter has right now. Thats why whatever defense Mitch brings, that Kanter doesnt, wasnt available last game.

Thats why Kanter put up that 20/20 plus game with 7 assists. Kanter wasnt passing like this last season.

So when you tell me that his defense is a liability, Kanter has the availability, that Robinson doesnt have right now, which is why Kanter shouldnt have been benched so soon.

Kanter is a below average defender. And he is far far far from the above average rim protector that you claim him to be.

I see that on the perimeter, not in the paint. Not to the degree you claim.

So how did you come to the conclusion that Kanter was a better than average rim protector? Gonna show me you data?

See Kanter discouraging players from going to the rim by putting his body on the ball carrier, forcing him to give up the ball.

I see Kanter boxing out multiple players (often alone) for a defensive rebound, preventing a second chance opportunity.

This is all a part of defending the rim IMO, its not just how many times Kanter blocked a shot, or picked up a defender the backcourt didnt.

When you factor in everything Kanter does under the rim, he is doing a better than average job of protecting it, not by much.


Not so bad that it overshadows what offensive skills Kanter brings to the table, some of which are elite.

If you want to ignore whatever isnt put into numbers, thats your prerogative, Bobby Brown. I dont go strictly by numbers, if I did we wouldnt be having this conversation. Cant find all the answers there.

franco12
Posts: 30233
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Member: #599
USA
11/7/2018  2:02 PM
Fiz is hands down the best coach we've had since Riley.

I have no questions about the teams effort.

We have a whole bunch of marginally talented NBA players, and we have been in every game this season.

Add KP and we're over 500.

Add KD and we're probably undefeated.

Coach gets effort and puts talent in a position to perform.

Talent wins games.

newyorknewyork
Posts: 28107
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Member: #541
11/7/2018  2:07 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
arkrud wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Not to pick on Timmy. But we have seen Levert and Oladipo finish the Knicks off with last min/second scores. And we have just now witnessed Lavine make a last 2nd drive attempt on to steal and OT win. Frank our best perimeter player wasn't guarding any of these guys during these moments. Fizz stated that he wanted Timmy to be tested in these situations and not to call on Frank even though thisay be his best attribute.

So clearly Fizz is focusing different things than just managing to win the game.

Not true....Frank was guarding Oladipo when he drilled the 3 from the corner...scroll to 1:55 min mark....The ball was kicked to Oladipo off an offensive rebound but Frank was there...

That falls more on a broken play which Frank covered Bogdonovic who was cutting in as the ball was in play for the offensive rbound which Frank then tried to recover outside after it was established Pacers got the rebound. That was a bang-bang play that ass just bad luck the way the ball bounced for Pacers to get the offensive rebound.

Dipos pull up 3 with Hardaway giving him to much space was more of a man to man set. I'm not even looking to knock Timmy in any way as I even felt the Levert layup wasn't bad defense and he contested the **** pretty well though he let him in to deep. And Levert got the layup at a hard angle which is more credit to him than anything. But point being Frank is more advanced defensively and offers more length than Timmy. Any coach strictly focused on wins and losses most likely urilzes Frank more in these situations.

Both of you make good points. I do
Think though end of game demands frank on their best wing or pg. just makes too much sense and Franks teammates know this

The problem isn't frank, It's fiz rotation when the game is in clutch mode (5 min left) . He hasn't been pressing the right buttons at all.

He either stays with a defensive line up too long(scoring droughts), takes guys out to soon, leaves guys in too long, put in players for like 5 minute spurts, botch plays out of time outs.

I get that he is trying things out, but it's really costing us easy wins, he is starting to remind me of Fisher.

Fiz does not give a rat as...ss about winning the games and about record we will have this season. So the front office.
It is not observation. This is their publicly stated position.
Players development is the end of all means.
Kantor will be starting if he will forget about rebounding and posting up but focus on team defense, protecting the rim, and trying to hit this 2-3 in-game 3-pointers.
So if he will try to advance his game not his stats.
But he does not want to or cannot which is the same thing. So why he should get any favors?
Same with Frank. He asked to be aggressive, shoot the open 3th, run the team.
He is not good for all this yet but he is working on it.
So he should continue to start and get minutes.
Fans like knicks1248 should go into hibernation because we are not going to win many games.
And we are going to look worth that we really are because the focus is on development not on winning now.
Simple like that...

The thing I love about fiz is that he takes absolute account ability when he pushes the wrong buttons and doesn't chalk it up to some development Bull sht your saying,

Last yr was the start of a rebuild and JH got fired, and while you may think wins and losses don't matter. I have seen countless coaches/GMs get fired in a rebuilding mode (most recently with the cavs and suns).

Players who learn the best sit and watch fist, when you throw them into the fire unprepared, you watch them pick up bad habits(fiz said so himself) that will be hard to shake, Which is what was happening under JH.

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, YOU DONT JUST PLAY TO FOR THE SAKE OF PLAYING...fck outta here with that bull sht. I don't care if i got 10 rookies out there or or 10 vets, I'm putting in the players who gives me the best opportunity to win. Let them feel good about themselves, upbeat and confident.

We haven't been in win mode now since Woodsons was fired 5 yrs ago, we have gone into every season since then with no one from the FO even whispering the word PLAYOFFS, it's been all about evaluating with no mandate for winning at all, and that has gotten us 5 trips to the lottery dance..wake up

Aside from knox... Dotson, Mitch, Trier could have easily been taken if we won 60 games, and you could lose 60 games and be rewarded with mudiay, frank, noah and mario


I prefer if the coach made the best decisions for the long term health and success of the franchise than decisions specifically to save his job. Mills and Perry brought in Fizz to do just that.

Every coach, gm, prez that we have had has coached to save their jobs. They ended up getting fired anyway, Knicks haven't put up a banner in 45 years and have made the playoffs like 3 times in the last 20 years. Your logic is to continue this trend?

Let me tell you the reality. In order to win in this league you need talent. Knicks have an opportunity this season while KP is out to add in a top 5 draft pick. As well as cap space for a quality fa addition. This is what they are pursuing. They are going to also give you players that are apart of the future all the developmental playing time they can handle. Because if they are able to develop Mitch, Frank, Dotson, Trier and Knox. While they are on their rookie scale contracts. Then added in a top 5 pick and KP to that mix. And a high quality FA then Knicks will be a playoff team for the next 10 years.

Just remember that when the Knicks do add this additional talent and your enjoying the high calibre talent that has been collected and added and developed the following seasons. Just remember that you were against all that. Actually I will be sure to remind you. And worse case scenario we become the 40 win first round exit team that you long to be.


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