TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He's playing much better recently, but as others have said, let's see him do it for a full 82 before we can call something real or consistent.

His contract is a bad contract. The Knicks signed him at the end of a free agency period and no one else was going to give him that contract. He was one of the last signings before the market truly collapsed.

It's still a bad contract and an indefensible contract. He'll pour in counting stats because he's the primary offensive option, but he's never shown he can be efficient in a non lead dog role.

fishmike wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He's playing much better recently, but as others have said, let's see him do it for a full 82 before we can call something real or consistent.

His contract is a bad contract. The Knicks signed him at the end of a free agency period and no one else was going to give him that contract. He was one of the last signings before the market truly collapsed.

It's still a bad contract and an indefensible contract. He'll pour in counting stats because he's the primary offensive option, but he's never shown he can be efficient in a non lead dog role.

Ahhh... yea, so words like "indefensible" dont leave much room for argument, and right now Timmy's 25ppg is a pretty good defense. Becoming a legit 2nd or 3rd scorer on a playoff team would be another defense.

And Shai Gilgeous-Alexander the guy I wanted most in the draft (After Doncic)- is hitting on ALL cylinders

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:He is slightly better than Dennis Smith Jr, I'll give him that.

And Shai Gilgeous-Alexander the guy I wanted most in the draft (After Doncic)- is hitting on ALL cylinders

"dennissmithshouldgoeffhimself" ?

fixed

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:He is slightly better than Dennis Smith Jr, I'll give him that.

And Shai Gilgeous-Alexander the guy I wanted most in the draft (After Doncic)- is hitting on ALL cylinders

"dennissmithshouldgoeffhimself" ?

fixed

Liked mine better, lol. Dont see it as a binary choice. Frank and Smith jr. both bring something to the table.

Offense isnt a minor ingredient in today's NBA. Smith is playing for one of the most demanding coaches in the league. If he was some Diva/BlackHole quite sure Smith would have been called on it by now.

As a PG, or off the ball, both are finding their role. Good for both teams. Doncic has first rate court vision, he's going to be the primary ball handler for the Mavs, eventually.

Neither are credible NBA starters right now but Frank is the better overall player, by quite a bit
Frank has a +/- of -3.4 and a BPM of -1.8
Dennis is -5..5 and a BPM of -5.7

meloshouldgo wrote:He has Negative -6.38 Net Rtg for this season
If you look at his split for wins and losses his EFG% and TS% are about the same, but his Net Rtg shows a 36 point swing!
When Timmy shows up on the defensive side which is currently around 1 out of every 3 games, and doesn't commit turnovers we have a good chance of winning. Given this I am still not very high on him, because he doesn't play defense consistently and doesn't play it well.

https://stats.nba.com/player/203501/advanced/

He ranks 175 out of 196 Guards in the NBA in Defensive rating
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

His Offensive Net Rtg is 77th out of 196 Guards, top of the middle third, Boobies has the best O-Rtg on the team among guards
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

Does this make an above average player? You do the math

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:He has Negative -6.38 Net Rtg for this season
If you look at his split for wins and losses his EFG% and TS% are about the same, but his Net Rtg shows a 36 point swing!
When Timmy shows up on the defensive side which is currently around 1 out of every 3 games, and doesn't commit turnovers we have a good chance of winning. Given this I am still not very high on him, because he doesn't play defense consistently and doesn't play it well.

https://stats.nba.com/player/203501/advanced/

He ranks 175 out of 196 Guards in the NBA in Defensive rating
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

His Offensive Net Rtg is 77th out of 196 Guards, top of the middle third, Boobies has the best O-Rtg on the team among guards
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

Does this make an above average player? You do the math

The ole advanced stats card. You can always find some stats to support or disparage whoever you like or dislike.

It's the way the world works. People make decisions based on data. Fans validate their "feelings" based on the eye test. Its the same argument as science vs. Religion, its reason vs. Faith based belief system.

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:He has Negative -6.38 Net Rtg for this season
If you look at his split for wins and losses his EFG% and TS% are about the same, but his Net Rtg shows a 36 point swing!
When Timmy shows up on the defensive side which is currently around 1 out of every 3 games, and doesn't commit turnovers we have a good chance of winning. Given this I am still not very high on him, because he doesn't play defense consistently and doesn't play it well.

https://stats.nba.com/player/203501/advanced/

He ranks 175 out of 196 Guards in the NBA in Defensive rating
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

His Offensive Net Rtg is 77th out of 196 Guards, top of the middle third, Boobies has the best O-Rtg on the team among guards
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

Does this make an above average player? You do the math

The ole advanced stats card. You can always find some stats to support or disparage whoever you like or dislike.

It's the way the world works. People make decisions based on data. Fans validate their "feelings" based on the eye test. Its the same argument as science vs. Religion, its reason vs. Faith based belief system.

Not true. If that were the case why do teams spend so much money and time on scouting? Data is certainly part of the equation but if its just about numbers all of this would be very easy. I guarantee you there are players universally accepted as great who somebody can dig up some advanced metrics that says otherwise.

There an old saying: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Statistics don't lie, people do. Teams scout to see if the play on field bears out the statistics. And stop acting like Net Rating is some obscure statistic no one has ever heard about. It's been the same for the last twenty years and no one has manipulated it to make THJR look bad. People use arguments like yours when they can't accept the data for what it is. Happens all the time. And teams that don't put a lot of weight on statistics make really poor decisions, you'll see one in action today against the Knicks.

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Welpee wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:He has Negative -6.38 Net Rtg for this season
If you look at his split for wins and losses his EFG% and TS% are about the same, but his Net Rtg shows a 36 point swing!
When Timmy shows up on the defensive side which is currently around 1 out of every 3 games, and doesn't commit turnovers we have a good chance of winning. Given this I am still not very high on him, because he doesn't play defense consistently and doesn't play it well.

https://stats.nba.com/player/203501/advanced/

He ranks 175 out of 196 Guards in the NBA in Defensive rating
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

His Offensive Net Rtg is 77th out of 196 Guards, top of the middle third, Boobies has the best O-Rtg on the team among guards
https://stats.nba.com/players/advanced/?sort=OFF_RATING&dir=-1&CF=MIN*GE*15&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PlayerPosition=G

Does this make an above average player? You do the math

The ole advanced stats card. You can always find some stats to support or disparage whoever you like or dislike.

It's the way the world works. People make decisions based on data. Fans validate their "feelings" based on the eye test. Its the same argument as science vs. Religion, its reason vs. Faith based belief system.

Not true. If that were the case why do teams spend so much money and time on scouting? Data is certainly part of the equation but if its just about numbers all of this would be very easy. I guarantee you there are players universally accepted as great who somebody can dig up some advanced metrics that says otherwise.

There an old saying: There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Statistics don't lie, people do. Teams scout to see if the play on field bears out the statistics. And stop acting like Net Rating is some obscure statistic no one has ever heard about. It's been the same for the last twenty years and no one has manipulated it to make THJR look bad. People use arguments like yours when they can't accept the data for what it is. Happens all the time. And teams that don't put a lot of weight on statistics make really poor decisions, you'll see one in action today against the Knicks.

If what you're saying were true there would be a lot of fantasy hoops stars with NBA jobs.

People reference stats for one player that supports what they believe and will conveniently ignore the same stat with the next player depending on whether it supports what they're trying to advance.

The NBA isn't exactly leading the world in embracing stats, that don't make stats bad.
The biggest banks rely on stats based algorithms to trade in and out of multi-billion dollar positions, and no human ever sees the trade before execution. The sooner the NBA learns how to maximize use of stats to their advantage the better.

Fantasy sports are based on stats from the 1970s. So your theory doesn't actually hold, no fantasy basketball makes use of advanced stats. But most teams have stats people and the number is growing fast.

Juliano wrote:Stats are very efficient for half static sports like baseball or football, much less so imho for flow sports like basketball or soccer. In these sports, a player can have a major influence by clever positionning without it appearing on individual stats. He can distribute the ball very well but only make a handful of assists, he can cut passing lanes and disrupt or slow down the opposition's offense and it won't show up as well. Lots of people in France were criticizing Didier Deschamps for not being a charismatic soccer player as he hardly ever scored or assisted yet he was the first french captain to lift a european champions cup with his club in 93, the first to lift a World Cup in 98 and he added a european championship in 2000. He was clever, knew how to set the team up, a real captain on the pitch despite being on the low side of the skills spectrum. Oh, and he just won the world cup as headcoach last july : he's always had a great IQ for the game.

Stats are a nice tool, they provide useful information but they shouldn't be the be all and all. A defense splitting pass that leaves a player with a simple layup will count as an assist just as a one yard pass to someone who'll then pull a bit of magical iso play and score out of nowhere. I hope Fizdale makes it clear that the only stats that really matter in the end are team stats otherwise it ends up with players stealing rebounds from their own teammates like DeAndre Jordan on Doncic the other night!

No. Stats don't encourage players to play badly anymore than all star worship encourage them to shoot everytime they touch the ball. There are lots advanced stats that measure impact on the game and more are being developed. The NBA and fans have been extremely slow to adopt stats. Stats will eventually dominate every sport, but it has to overcome entrenched resistance from peeps like Barkley.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/06/nba-data-analytics/396776/

HofstraBBall wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

Juliano wrote:Stats are very efficient for half static sports like baseball or football, much less so imho for flow sports like basketball or soccer. In these sports, a player can have a major influence by clever positionning without it appearing on individual stats. He can distribute the ball very well but only make a handful of assists, he can cut passing lanes and disrupt or slow down the opposition's offense and it won't show up as well. Lots of people in France were criticizing Didier Deschamps for not being a charismatic soccer player as he hardly ever scored or assisted yet he was the first french captain to lift a european champions cup with his club in 93, the first to lift a World Cup in 98 and he added a european championship in 2000. He was clever, knew how to set the team up, a real captain on the pitch despite being on the low side of the skills spectrum. Oh, and he just won the world cup as headcoach last july : he's always had a great IQ for the game.

Stats are a nice tool, they provide useful information but they shouldn't be the be all and all. A defense splitting pass that leaves a player with a simple layup will count as an assist just as a one yard pass to someone who'll then pull a bit of magical iso play and score out of nowhere. I hope Fizdale makes it clear that the only stats that really matter in the end are team stats otherwise it ends up with players stealing rebounds from their own teammates like DeAndre Jordan on Doncic the other night!

No. Stats don't encourage players to play badly anymore than all star worship encourage them to shoot everytime they touch the ball. There are lots advanced stats that measure impact on the game and more are being developed. The NBA and fans have been extremely slow to adopt stats. Stats will eventually dominate every sport, but it has to overcome entrenched resistance from peeps like Barkley.

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/06/nba-data-analytics/396776/

Stats are for arm chair GM's who think they can judge a player just by crunching numbers on the computer. They just don't tell the whole story. Funny how you left out PIE? Which is viewed by most stat nerds as the most indicative overall stat?

To Juliano's point:
Enes Kanter has a better Net Defensive rating. So does this mean Kanter is a better defender than Frank?
Btw. One just for you.... Melo has a better PIE than Frank. So guess you think Melo is better?

Some more stats:
PIE. Kanter 15.9 Vonleh 15.7 TIMMY!! 11.2...…... Frank 5.1

Reason why we lost last nights game....NO TiMMY!, did not help that Frank had 4 bricks in the 4th but we did not have someone that can make the shots Timmy can.

Frank is a better defender than DSJ? You need hours looking up stats to reach that conclusion? Sure. DSJ is a very good offensive player. And in case your not watching, those are the ones needed in todays NBA. And something we needed last night when Frank came in and we were down 4.