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At what point do folks come around on the Hardway signing? Worth it? A core piece or trade asset moving forward?
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Chandler
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11/2/2018  11:34 AM
one other aspect to consider: Team has a long history of signing FA at their peak or passed it, only for the player's performance to decline going forward

With THJ, I think the one aspect smart about it was a reasonable expectation (NOT guarantee) that he would continue to improve. I still believe that. I think his head is screwed on straight -- not some prima donna thinking off season is about smoking cigars and drinking wine.

If I recall correctly he's leading the team in taking charges -- if nothing else showing he's hustling back on D. I personally think his D will improve if he plays or at least guards the 2s

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knicks1248
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11/2/2018  12:40 PM
I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

ES
GustavBahler
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11/2/2018  12:51 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/2/2018  12:53 PM
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

That and taking charges. Didnt understand the "soft label" when he was putting his body on the line in a way his teammates werent. How THJ carried himself during that God awful slump last season, showed his growth as a player. Really has come a long way from his rookie year.

Chandler
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11/2/2018  1:54 PM
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

Not ready to call the team soft so much as what plays they're actually running. I can see Trier being effective with fouls, Knox, and Hezonja (in theory). Kanter should get more fouls than he does and kind of baffles me. He gets whacked in the head no call.

It's simple math too. Assume a FT% is 0.75. That's 1.5 expected points. COmpare that to 1.2 for a real good 3 point shooter and 1 for a good 2 point shot. Then you fold in that you can soften the D, cause players to foul out

The real issue is you need to go strong. You either need the bucket or the foul for this to be effective. This is why I find Mudiay so maddening. With his size he should be attacking the front of the rim seeking dunks. He should be able to play through the minor contact (i.e., if no foul is called) to get a high quality shot. Instead he pulls short and does some off balance crap

(5)(5)
fishmike
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11/2/2018  3:17 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

That and taking charges. Didnt understand the "soft label" when he was putting his body on the line in a way his teammates werent. How THJ carried himself during that God awful slump last season, showed his growth as a player. Really has come a long way from his rookie year.

Soft has never been an issue IMO. He's annoying more than anything, but he's playing really well and did MOST of last year
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martin
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11/2/2018  3:22 PM
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

That and taking charges. Didnt understand the "soft label" when he was putting his body on the line in a way his teammates werent. How THJ carried himself during that God awful slump last season, showed his growth as a player. Really has come a long way from his rookie year.

Soft has never been an issue IMO. He's annoying more than anything, but he's playing really well and did MOST of last year

THJr shot selection has really improved, hope he keeps it up. Wish his handle was better, he can get past his guy with a burst of speed but not as well as other guards with better handles. His feet are slow around picks and his defensive awareness, while a little better this year (and that could be a better scheme and communication for the whole team), is still lacking for me.

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knicks1248
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11/2/2018  4:10 PM
Chandler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

Not ready to call the team soft so much as what plays they're actually running. I can see Trier being effective with fouls, Knox, and Hezonja (in theory). Kanter should get more fouls than he does and kind of baffles me. He gets whacked in the head no call.

It's simple math too. Assume a FT% is 0.75. That's 1.5 expected points. COmpare that to 1.2 for a real good 3 point shooter and 1 for a good 2 point shot. Then you fold in that you can soften the D, cause players to foul out

The real issue is you need to go strong. You either need the bucket or the foul for this to be effective. This is why I find Mudiay so maddening. With his size he should be attacking the front of the rim seeking dunks. He should be able to play through the minor contact (i.e., if no foul is called) to get a high quality shot. Instead he pulls short and does some off balance crap

Every since the Day MDA became the Head coach, we have put together a jump shot shooting team that barely ever gets to the line, it was like that with woodson, Fisher, JH, and Now Fiz. I'm really confused as to how that has been the case with every player we bring here.

ES
CrushAlot
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11/2/2018  4:19 PM
He is in the middle salary wise for shooting guards and he is still a young guy. Definitely has and is playing better than some of the guys ahead of him.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/cap-hit/shooting-guard/
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meloshouldgo
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11/2/2018  5:46 PM
martin wrote:
fishmike wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

That and taking charges. Didnt understand the "soft label" when he was putting his body on the line in a way his teammates werent. How THJ carried himself during that God awful slump last season, showed his growth as a player. Really has come a long way from his rookie year.

Soft has never been an issue IMO. He's annoying more than anything, but he's playing really well and did MOST of last year

THJr shot selection has really improved, hope he keeps it up. Wish his handle was better, he can get past his guy with a burst of speed but not as well as other guards with better handles. His feet are slow around picks and his defensive awareness, while a little better this year (and that could be a better scheme and communication for the whole team), is still lacking for me.

this

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NYKBocker
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11/2/2018  5:52 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

Not ready to call the team soft so much as what plays they're actually running. I can see Trier being effective with fouls, Knox, and Hezonja (in theory). Kanter should get more fouls than he does and kind of baffles me. He gets whacked in the head no call.

It's simple math too. Assume a FT% is 0.75. That's 1.5 expected points. COmpare that to 1.2 for a real good 3 point shooter and 1 for a good 2 point shot. Then you fold in that you can soften the D, cause players to foul out

The real issue is you need to go strong. You either need the bucket or the foul for this to be effective. This is why I find Mudiay so maddening. With his size he should be attacking the front of the rim seeking dunks. He should be able to play through the minor contact (i.e., if no foul is called) to get a high quality shot. Instead he pulls short and does some off balance crap

Every since the Day MDA became the Head coach, we have put together a jump shot shooting team that barely ever gets to the line, it was like that with woodson, Fisher, JH, and Now Fiz. I'm really confused as to how that has been the case with every player we bring here.
The last player that continously took it to the rim was Lin.
Knickoftime
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11/2/2018  6:04 PM
NYKBocker wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Chandler wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:I wish more of our players would get to the Free throw line like he's been doing. It just amazes me how guys struggling with their shooting and won't just take it to the hole.

The knicks have some of the softest palyers in the league over the last few seasons. Aside from melo and JR(his sixth man of the yr season) we have rarely had any players that consistently get to the FT line.

Not ready to call the team soft so much as what plays they're actually running. I can see Trier being effective with fouls, Knox, and Hezonja (in theory). Kanter should get more fouls than he does and kind of baffles me. He gets whacked in the head no call.

It's simple math too. Assume a FT% is 0.75. That's 1.5 expected points. COmpare that to 1.2 for a real good 3 point shooter and 1 for a good 2 point shot. Then you fold in that you can soften the D, cause players to foul out

The real issue is you need to go strong. You either need the bucket or the foul for this to be effective. This is why I find Mudiay so maddening. With his size he should be attacking the front of the rim seeking dunks. He should be able to play through the minor contact (i.e., if no foul is called) to get a high quality shot. Instead he pulls short and does some off balance crap

Every since the Day MDA became the Head coach, we have put together a jump shot shooting team that barely ever gets to the line, it was like that with woodson, Fisher, JH, and Now Fiz. I'm really confused as to how that has been the case with every player we bring here.
The last player that continously took it to the rim was Lin.

This isn't that much of a mystery.

One of the reasons the Knicks haven't been good is because they haven't had a dominant post-scorer that gets a lot of touches on the blocks or a ball-dominant scorer.

Its a personnel thing.

They haven't had good personnel.

Pretty self-explanatory.

Jmpasq
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11/2/2018  7:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/2/2018  7:52 PM
fishmike wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

lets pump the brakes on that, its been 7 games. JR Smith looked great for 7 games.

Why not just state your opinion as you have labeled THjr as one the most laughable signings in the NBA and a total joke. You sticking to that? You have probably posted more than anyone how bad a signing that was. Timmy's good play making you uncomfortable?

No I hope I'm wrong I hate that the team has sucked what seems like forever. If Hardaway Jr. can get the shooting percentage up into the 46-47 range and average an even 20ppg when Porzingis gets back they won't need to get rid of him.
But ;ike I said Jr Smith looked good for stretches as well. I wouldnt be shocked, I actually expect a slump
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meloshouldgo
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11/2/2018  8:17 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

lets pump the brakes on that, its been 7 games. JR Smith looked great for 7 games.

Why not just state your opinion as you have labeled THjr as one the most laughable signings in the NBA and a total joke. You sticking to that? You have probably posted more than anyone how bad a signing that was. Timmy's good play making you uncomfortable?

No I hope I'm wrong I hate that the team has sucked what seems like forever. If Hardaway Jr. can get the shooting percentage up into the 46-47 range and average an even 20ppg when Porzingis gets back they won't need to get rid of him.
But ;ike I said Jr Smith looked good for stretches as well. I wouldnt be shocked, I actually expect a slump

Law of averages is going to catch up

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Welpee
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11/2/2018  11:25 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Was against the move, started a thread about it. Went in that thread soon after the season started, THJ started playing, and said that he deserved some patience from fans. Because Timmy was doing the right things, albeit unsuccessfully to that point.

Was against the signing, but it didnt take long for me to see that Timmy was a different player than he was in NY the last time, different attitude.

Im hesitant to heap praise on Mills because he did what this franchise has done too much of, going for the familiar. Would Mills have signed Hardaway if he hadnt been a Knick? Doubt it.

Be it a system, execs, coaches who arent worth a head coaching gig, players, the Knicks have up until this point gone too often with the familiar.

Thats why I liked Mills signing of Perry. He thought outside the box, didnt look to hire Allan Houston, or someone else in the org. Thats what Mills really should be praised for IMO.

Could just say you were wrong about Hardaway. lol

Seriously, I liked bringing him back but thought we overpaid, which we basically had to since he was a restricted free agent. So far it has looked like a solid signing. As long as nobody gets fooled into thinking he can be an alpha dog on a winning team. He can be a solid sidekick, a #3 type guy.

We still need a Batman (Durant) with KP being Robin and Hardaway being Alfred. lol

Would you sleep better at night? Not much of a conversation your way.

Doesn't matter to me either way. Just interesting when people can't just say they were wrong.
GustavBahler
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11/2/2018  11:31 PM
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
Welpee wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Was against the move, started a thread about it. Went in that thread soon after the season started, THJ started playing, and said that he deserved some patience from fans. Because Timmy was doing the right things, albeit unsuccessfully to that point.

Was against the signing, but it didnt take long for me to see that Timmy was a different player than he was in NY the last time, different attitude.

Im hesitant to heap praise on Mills because he did what this franchise has done too much of, going for the familiar. Would Mills have signed Hardaway if he hadnt been a Knick? Doubt it.

Be it a system, execs, coaches who arent worth a head coaching gig, players, the Knicks have up until this point gone too often with the familiar.

Thats why I liked Mills signing of Perry. He thought outside the box, didnt look to hire Allan Houston, or someone else in the org. Thats what Mills really should be praised for IMO.

Could just say you were wrong about Hardaway. lol

Seriously, I liked bringing him back but thought we overpaid, which we basically had to since he was a restricted free agent. So far it has looked like a solid signing. As long as nobody gets fooled into thinking he can be an alpha dog on a winning team. He can be a solid sidekick, a #3 type guy.

We still need a Batman (Durant) with KP being Robin and Hardaway being Alfred. lol

Would you sleep better at night? Not much of a conversation your way.

Doesn't matter to me either way. Just interesting when people can't just say they were wrong.

Child, Ive been doing it since last season.

CrushAlot
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11/3/2018  10:17 PM
Tim as a restricted free agent signing gas been so much better then the guys Marks went all in on. Johnson's deal is brutal. Crabbe's deal is close to brutal. Porter's deal is franchise killing but he is a better player then the other Marks targets. Tim has been better than all of these guys but Marks is supposed to be the brilliant gm.
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TripleThreat
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11/3/2018  10:48 PM
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He's playing much better recently, but as others have said, let's see him do it for a full 82 before we can call something real or consistent.

His contract is a bad contract. The Knicks signed him at the end of a free agency period and no one else was going to give him that contract. He was one of the last signings before the market truly collapsed.

It's still a bad contract and an indefensible contract. He'll pour in counting stats because he's the primary offensive option, but he's never shown he can be efficient in a non lead dog role.

CrushAlot
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11/3/2018  11:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 11/3/2018  11:39 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He's playing much better recently, but as others have said, let's see him do it for a full 82 before we can call something real or consistent.

His contract is a bad contract. The Knicks signed him at the end of a free agency period and no one else was going to give him that contract.[b][/b] He was one of the last signings before the market truly collapsed.

It's still a bad contract and an indefensible contract. He'll pour in counting stats because he's the primary offensive option, but he's never shown he can be efficient in a non lead dog role.

He was signed on the second day of free agency. His contract is exactly in the middle for shooting guards and he is better than at least 5 guys that are paid more than him if his improved play isn't sustainable. If he can sustain his current play he is more than a bargain. Not sure what your assessment is based on but check the salary of shooting guards, production and age.
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings/cap-hit/shooting-guard/
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Welpee
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11/4/2018  6:11 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He's playing much better recently, but as others have said, let's see him do it for a full 82 before we can call something real or consistent.

His contract is a bad contract. The Knicks signed him at the end of a free agency period and no one else was going to give him that contract. He was one of the last signings before the market truly collapsed.

It's still a bad contract and an indefensible contract. He'll pour in counting stats because he's the primary offensive option, but he's never shown he can be efficient in a non lead dog role.

Again, he was a restricted free agent. They had to structure the deal to discourage Atlanta from matching. That was the competition they were up against.
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11/4/2018  9:53 AM
We made him an offer he couldn’t refuse on the second day of free agency with the front office is total chaos given Phil was just fired. How do you woo a player with a coach who is likely not going to be there or at best a year?
Who is the GM? KP turned his back on the franchise? We just drafted frank, and Melo was on the block with no idea what comes back in return.

That was the moment free agency started and we needed scoring. So under those conditions at that very moment in time what was the market for him others and the perception of the knicks as a landing place? Not a very attractive proposition.

At what point do folks come around on the Hardway signing? Worth it? A core piece or trade asset moving forward?

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