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At what point do folks come around on the Hardway signing? Worth it? A core piece or trade asset moving forward?
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BigDaddyG
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11/1/2018  2:40 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:THJ has always been streaky. The only difference now is that he got hot early in the season. It's possible that he took his game to the next level, but I need to see more before I say Timmy has arrived.

Dont know your definition of "arrived" but I believe its fair to say that Timmy has been earning his paycheck. Agree he's streaky.

Unlike his first time here, Hardaway is finding other ways to contribute when his shot isnt falling.


By arrived, I mean future or borderline All-star. He's played OK, but can he keep it up? I was also dubious of Oladipo's production at this point of the season last year. I'm hoping THJ is undergoing the same transformation.
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Knixkik
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11/1/2018  2:43 PM
I was a fan of the signing. The upside was there. His deal isn't a steal by any means but in the right role he is worth that contract. Ideally we want him as the 4th option on offense behind Porzingis, Knox (when he gains expierience), and a 2019 FA. But he is worth that deal.
Bretrobert1
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11/1/2018  2:44 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Bretrobert1 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bretrobert1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He can fill it up on the offensive side. But last night's stat line is all too familiar. 37 points and the worst plus/minus on the team at -14, in a 6 point loss.

I'm a believer in +/- more than most, but something that has to be factored in is pure minutes.

Hardaway played 5 more minutes than anyone and a lot more minutes than most.

In an ultimate loss, that's going to manifest itself in +/-.

Re-read my post. He had the worst plus/minus on the team at -14, in a 6 point loss.. In closely contested games the theory you said about minutes played and plus/minus doesn't hold true.

Your example would definitely be relevant in a game like the 110-87 loss to the heat--or any other blowout loss, where the most minutes on the floor typically would have the worst or close to the worst plus/minus. But speaking of the loss to the heat; look at Ntilikina and Dotson's minutes played and plus/minus compared to Timmy's. Like I said before, he can fill it up, but the Knicks typically get outscored-even more-when he does.

Look at the game.

Dotson and Hardaway were on the floor together at the end when the score swung.

The difference in their +/- was 6 (-14 vs -8)

It was at 4:22 in the Q1 that Dotson and Vonleh left the game for Kanter and Trier. Score was 17-13 Pacers.

Sabonis then scores the next 9 Pacers points in 2 mins, and the lead goes to 26-17, a -5 point swing, the score in which Hardaway goes to the bench.

5 of the 6 point difference.

Okay, how much of Sabonis going off was on Hardaway, or just circumstance?

Would it have been different if Dotson and not Trier was on the floor?

Wow.. It would have been better if you just said: Timmy's plus/minus could've been -11 if that one three went in instead of rimming out.. Stats are stats. They're not perfect, but when used overtime they give you unbiased data.

Here's some other stats to chew on: Hardaway shoots 20 times per game, he has a terrible 2pt FG% and a pretty darn bad eFG%. His assist/to ratio is no good. And his main defensive ratings (even though these can be influenced by minutes played in a losing effort) is the worst on the Knicks & towards the bottom of the League. Dotson has played similar minutes, and has far superior defensive ratings.

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newyorknewyork
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11/1/2018  2:46 PM
Like I stated in the other thread. If more talent is added and Hardaway Jrs usage gets lowered an he takes less shots. Is he as effective? Or is he cappable of being a 2nd option on a contender?

Those are the questions with him.

Right now he is a guy that produces numbers due to increased volume on a losing team. Like a Lavine. But if his touches start getting reduced. How does he make more of an impact on the game?

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BigDaddyG
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11/1/2018  2:54 PM
Bretrobert1 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bretrobert1 wrote:
Knickoftime wrote:
Bretrobert1 wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

He can fill it up on the offensive side. But last night's stat line is all too familiar. 37 points and the worst plus/minus on the team at -14, in a 6 point loss.

I'm a believer in +/- more than most, but something that has to be factored in is pure minutes.

Hardaway played 5 more minutes than anyone and a lot more minutes than most.

In an ultimate loss, that's going to manifest itself in +/-.

Re-read my post. He had the worst plus/minus on the team at -14, in a 6 point loss.. In closely contested games the theory you said about minutes played and plus/minus doesn't hold true.

Your example would definitely be relevant in a game like the 110-87 loss to the heat--or any other blowout loss, where the most minutes on the floor typically would have the worst or close to the worst plus/minus. But speaking of the loss to the heat; look at Ntilikina and Dotson's minutes played and plus/minus compared to Timmy's. Like I said before, he can fill it up, but the Knicks typically get outscored-even more-when he does.

Look at the game.

Dotson and Hardaway were on the floor together at the end when the score swung.

The difference in their +/- was 6 (-14 vs -8)

It was at 4:22 in the Q1 that Dotson and Vonleh left the game for Kanter and Trier. Score was 17-13 Pacers.

Sabonis then scores the next 9 Pacers points in 2 mins, and the lead goes to 26-17, a -5 point swing, the score in which Hardaway goes to the bench.

5 of the 6 point difference.

Okay, how much of Sabonis going off was on Hardaway, or just circumstance?

Would it have been different if Dotson and not Trier was on the floor?

Wow.. It would have been better if you just said: Timmy's plus/minus could've been -11 if that one three went in instead of rimming out.. Stats are stats. They're not perfect, but when used overtime they give you unbiased data.

Here's some other stats to chew on: Hardaway shoots 20 times per game, he has a terrible 2pt FG% and a pretty darn bad eFG%. His assist/to ratio is no good. And his main defensive ratings (even though these can be influenced by minutes played in a losing effort) is the worst on the Knicks & towards the bottom of the League. Dotson has played similar minutes, and has far superior defensive ratings.

I wanted to give a think bit of a pass on the overall FG % because his ts% has been decent and he's been taking it to the hole with more frequency. He's also avgd. A career high in free throws. That said, yeah, there are still holes in his game that can filled.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Bretrobert1
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11/1/2018  2:59 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:Like I stated in the other thread. If more talent is added and Hardaway Jrs usage gets lowered an he takes less shots. Is he as effective? Or is he cappable of being a 2nd option on a contender?

Those are the questions with him.

Right now he is a guy that produces numbers due to increased volume on a losing team. Like a Lavine. But if his touches start getting reduced. How does he make more of an impact on the game?

I agree with this and the post just below yours. I think Timmy could play a meaningful role on a competitor, but it's definitely not the role he's filling now. He could be a spark plug of a 6th man; but he needs to tighten up his D.

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Knickoftime
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11/1/2018  3:04 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:Like I stated in the other thread. If more talent is added and Hardaway Jrs usage gets lowered an he takes less shots. Is he as effective? Or is he cappable of being a 2nd option on a contender?

Those are the questions with him.

Right now he is a guy that produces numbers due to increased volume on a losing team. Like a Lavine. But if his touches start getting reduced. How does he make more of an impact on the game?

If his current 3pt % improvement remains (was up even before last's nights great game behind the arc) him as a catch and shoot 3 point shooter who can also take to the hole if a defender jumps up on him and also can run the floor strikes me as intriguing.

Knickoftime
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11/1/2018  3:27 PM
Bretrobert1 wrote:Wow.. It would have been better if you just said: Timmy's plus/minus could've been -11 if that one three went in instead of rimming out.. Stats are stats. They're not perfect, but when used overtime they give you unbiased data.

I believe in stats.

I also believe they improve the more they accumulate and the less you try to use anecdotal stats to support a point.

Here's some other stats to chew on: Hardaway shoots 20 times per game, he has a terrible 2pt FG% and a pretty darn bad eFG%. His assist/to ratio is no good. And his main defensive ratings (even though these can be influenced by minutes played in a losing effort) is the worst on the Knicks & towards the bottom of the League. Dotson has played similar minutes, and has far superior defensive ratings.

Okay, this strikes me as someone who thinks I'm comparing Dotson and Hardaway, when all I wrote was the guy leading the team in mins in a losing game has a statistical predisposition to a greater +/- in a losing game which then translates to season/losing season.

I pointed out the anecdotal profile of the game in question, all the while agreeing with you that I in fact believe in stats.

Since you brought it up, Hardaway has a better and pretty decent TS% because he's getting to the line and hitting them at a high rate.

But that's just for fun, because I never compared Hardaway to Dotson despite what you seem to think.

martin
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11/1/2018  3:45 PM
love this pic:

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CrushAlot
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11/1/2018  3:48 PM
I think at the time the signing was trashed in the media because it was the Knicks that signed him. Hardaway makes less then Crabbe and is a much better player. It was still en vogue to trash every move the Knicks made at that point. But the contract was fair and close to market value for a starting two guard. He is out playing the contract right now and looked good last year until he got hurt. Mills only blemish is the Baker deal and that really wasn't that bad. If Mills can be a buffer for Dolan and help to get a true rebuild done in NY he deserves a lot of credit.
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Bretrobert1
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11/1/2018  3:57 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
Bretrobert1 wrote:Wow.. It would have been better if you just said: Timmy's plus/minus could've been -11 if that one three went in instead of rimming out.. Stats are stats. They're not perfect, but when used overtime they give you unbiased data.

I believe in stats.

I also believe they improve the more they accumulate and the less you try to use anecdotal stats to support a point.

Here's some other stats to chew on: Hardaway shoots 20 times per game, he has a terrible 2pt FG% and a pretty darn bad eFG%. His assist/to ratio is no good. And his main defensive ratings (even though these can be influenced by minutes played in a losing effort) is the worst on the Knicks & towards the bottom of the League. Dotson has played similar minutes, and has far superior defensive ratings.

Okay, this strikes me as someone who thinks I'm comparing Dotson and Hardaway, when all I wrote was the guy leading the team in mins in a losing game has a statistical predisposition to a greater +/- in a losing game which then translates to season/losing season.

I pointed out the anecdotal profile of the game in question, all the while agreeing with you that I in fact believe in stats.

Since you brought it up, Hardaway has a better and pretty decent TS% because he's getting to the line and hitting them at a high rate.

But that's just for fun, because I never compared Hardaway to Dotson despite what you seem to think.

I know you didn't compare Hardaway to Dotson, and I wasn't trying to imply that. I just mentioned him for a comparison, stat wise.

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Nalod
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11/1/2018  4:25 PM
CrushAlot wrote:I think at the time the signing was trashed in the media because it was the Knicks that signed him. Hardaway makes less then Crabbe and is a much better player. It was still en vogue to trash every move the Knicks made at that point. But the contract was fair and close to market value for a starting two guard. He is out playing the contract right now and looked good last year until he got hurt. Mills only blemish is the Baker deal and that really wasn't that bad. If Mills can be a buffer for Dolan and help to get a true rebuild done in NY he deserves a lot of credit.

Good take.
Baker was likely a Hornacek request. Not terrible as you said.
Mills does not have the cred to give confidence to his lone signature move.
Like I said, have to go the very moment to weight it all out, not hindsight.
Timmy is JR Smith without the Bullshyt. JR got 15mmx3 a year in his last deal and it came with baggage.
Timmy is our no. 1 guy and paid like a 3rd.
Ira
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11/1/2018  5:21 PM
He's a good, not great player who earns his contract.
newyorknewyork
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11/1/2018  5:35 PM
Knickoftime wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:Like I stated in the other thread. If more talent is added and Hardaway Jrs usage gets lowered an he takes less shots. Is he as effective? Or is he cappable of being a 2nd option on a contender?

Those are the questions with him.

Right now he is a guy that produces numbers due to increased volume on a losing team. Like a Lavine. But if his touches start getting reduced. How does he make more of an impact on the game?

If his current 3pt % improvement remains (was up even before last's nights great game behind the arc) him as a catch and shoot 3 point shooter who can also take to the hole if a defender jumps up on him and also can run the floor strikes me as intriguing.

Wouod like to see what Knox brings in order to judge how all the pieces fit. Worst possible case scenario is Timmy and Knox don't bring enough perimeter defense while both offering the same things offensively.

Best case both of them provide above average defence. While both cappable of knocking down shots, putting the ball on the floor and creating for others.

Would like Timmy to avoid these 1 ast games and trying to play hero.

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Allanfan20
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11/2/2018  5:50 AM
martin wrote:

I was sooo hoping that the first dunk would be a miss because that would have been hilarious.

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Jmpasq
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11/2/2018  6:23 AM
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

lets pump the brakes on that, its been 7 games. JR Smith looked great for 7 games.

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Jmpasq
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11/2/2018  6:30 AM
Caseloads wrote:
Welpee wrote:We still need a Batman (Durant) with KP being Robin and Hardaway being Alfred. lol

you mean:
durant = superman
KP = batman
hardaway = green lantern

Green Lantern is to good. Maybe Blue Jay

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FrenchFreak
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11/2/2018  7:59 AM
I’ve enjoyed watching Hardaway this season because his shot is falling so far. In general, when his shot isn’t falling he’s a really inefficient player and hard for me to watch.

I’ll cut him some slack because he’s been good and because they don’t have a whole lot of options on offense right now. In today’s NBA he’s probably been worth the money. He plays hard every night and is far from our biggest problem.

The question of whether he’s a starter on a good Knicks team with a healthy KP, a developing Frank, and hopefully a productive Kevin Knox remains to be seen. Can he take fewer, better shots and become a really efficient scorer? He has the ability but I really have no idea if he has it in him. If he can be a guy who drives to the basket aggressively and is more selective on threes he could be a solid complementary piece. KP coming back could potentially allow that to happen. We’ll find out because I don’t think the Knicks would look to trade Timmy.

Nalod
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11/2/2018  9:30 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

lets pump the brakes on that, its been 7 games. JR Smith looked great for 7 games.

JR had all star elite type talent but was a bone head. A lot of the talk is really about contract expectations. Paying a guy on potential is not so great knick thing historically. With Mills there was not a lot of expectation either. I don't think he is that much different than last year but the team is very much and he is starting as the no. 1 option and yet letting things come to him a bit more.
The "all star" label is way premature. That I agree! Im just enjoying it!!

fishmike
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11/2/2018  9:50 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
fishmike wrote:I mean just curios. This signing was generally blasted here. Hardaway continues to improve and is a pretty good ball player. Of Bazemore, Evan Turner, Allan Crabbe... those guys who were getting those deal THj is probably the only one worth it.

What are people's thoughts on having him here and his contract moving forward?

lets pump the brakes on that, its been 7 games. JR Smith looked great for 7 games.

Why not just state your opinion as you have labeled THjr as one the most laughable signings in the NBA and a total joke. You sticking to that? You have probably posted more than anyone how bad a signing that was. Timmy's good play making you uncomfortable?
"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
At what point do folks come around on the Hardway signing? Worth it? A core piece or trade asset moving forward?

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