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The Draft Revisited...
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NardDogNation
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10/13/2018  10:06 PM
I was listening to two different podcasts recently that had some interesting factoids about this past draft. Brian Windhorst- in a Western Conference preview for ESPN- heard that the Clippers were so concerned about Shai Gilgeous Alexander being drafted ahead of them, they were willing to give up BOTH the 12 and 13th picks to move up to get Alexander.

I also heard Danny LeRoux echo a similar point in a Cavs season outlook episode for Dunc'd On. Evidently the Cavs were deliberating between Sexton and Alexander, which had the Clippers in a panic all night. In the end, the Clippers did give up two second round picks just to move up one spot to guarantee they'd get him, so clearly the fixation with Alexander was real(and rightly so). So why the hell didn't we draft Alexander and trade down to recoup both the 12th pick and 13th pick?

Don't get me wrong, I love Kevin Knox as a prospect following his summer league performance but if we passed on him at 9, who is to say he wouldn't have been available at 12? The actual draft at that point was as follows:

10th (PHI): Mikal Bridges
11th (LAC via CHA): Shai Gilgeous Alexander
12th (CHA via LAC): Miles Bridges


...it stood to reason that the order would have held aside for Alexander and Knox changing positions. The Sixers were said to be more than comfortable with taking Mikal but were given a godfather offer from the Suns and traded down. Meanwhile the Hornets have always been a foolish franchise that gravitates toward big men and ready-to-contribute upperclassmen in the draft, which made it likely that they would have taken Miles Bridges at all cost. That means there was a realistic chance to get Kevin Knox at 12 with the opportunity to draft a Michael Porter Jr at 13.

So why not do it? Why do the Knicks always miss golden opportunities that other teams routinely capitalize on (see the Sixers and what they did on draft night)? With the NBA being a big fraternity, I can't help but think that teams have moles or some means of open communication that allows them to know the plans/intent of other franchises. So why are the Knicks so bad in reading the tea leaves and exerting leverage in situations like this?

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wargames
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10/14/2018  12:32 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  12:32 AM
There were very high indicators that Philly wanted knox at 10. So much so that once he was off the board they decided to trade down for Zhaire. In fact they were the two players that Philly brought back for second workout and while Knox is struggling early based on his skill set as a outside scorer he would of fit in great with Embiid and Simmons.

http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/sixers-nba-draft-kevin-knox-workout-76ers-brett-brown-pre-draft-20180619.html

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CrushAlot
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10/14/2018  1:09 AM
No way Knox lasts till 12. The Knicks were really high on Knox. I think the Cavs could have gotten pick 36 if they threatened to take Knox.
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NardDogNation
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10/14/2018  2:07 AM
CrushAlot wrote:No way Knox lasts till 12. The Knicks were really high on Knox. I think the Cavs could have gotten pick 36 if they threatened to take Knox.

Why? Who was taking him at 10 or 11?

wargames
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10/14/2018  2:08 AM
Yep, the talent is there. Knox showed it by whupping the other SF in the draft in 1 on 1 workouts.
The algorithm gives and the algorithm takes away
StarksEwing1
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10/14/2018  2:12 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:No way Knox lasts till 12. The Knicks were really high on Knox. I think the Cavs could have gotten pick 36 if they threatened to take Knox.

Why? Who was taking him at 10 or 11?

philly would have
NardDogNation
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10/14/2018  2:18 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  2:23 AM
wargames wrote:There were very high indicators that Philly wanted knox at 10.So much so that once he was off the board they decided to trade down for Zhaire. In fact they were the two players that Philly brought back for second workout and while Knox is struggling early based on his skill set as a outside scorer he would of fit in great with Embiid and Simmons.

http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/sixers-nba-draft-kevin-knox-workout-76ers-brett-brown-pre-draft-20180619.html

I think it was possible- anything is- but not probable. Even the article you provided said:

Bridges is the Sixers' top target if they remain at No. 10. Knox and former Kentucky teammate Shai Gilgeous-Alexander are high on their wish list if Bridges is off the board, according to sources.
http://www2.philly.com/philly/sports/sixers/sixers-nba-draft-kevin-knox-workout-76ers-brett-brown-pre-draft-20180619.html

Heading into this past offseason it was clear that the Sixers had shifted from a player development phase to win-now mode:

1.) They had traded away a top 2-5 pick in the 2019 draft and their own lottery pick in 2017, just to acquire Markelle Fultz who they thought would help them immediately.

2.) They moved compelling young talent off the bench like Justin Anderson, TLC and Richard Holmes in lieu of veteran play.

3.) They put an emphasis on maximizing their cap space to pursue guys like Paul George and LeBron James; while targeting Kawhi Leonard via trade.


Those patterns suggested to me that they were interested in a high-floor, low-ceiling draft pick that were specialists, which is exactly what Mikal Bridges and (to a lesser extent) Zhaire Smith were. Those guys could come in and fill a role immediately. On the other hand, Kevin Knox might take 3-5 seasons before we can begin to figure out what he is. The Sixers don't have the time/opportunity to do that with a player considering where their core is at in their careers.

NardDogNation
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10/14/2018  2:18 AM
wargames wrote:Yep, the talent is there. Knox showed it by whupping the other SF in the draft in 1 on 1 workouts.

The article you provided said he looked fatigued and missed more shots than he made in that second workout with the Sixers....

NardDogNation
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10/14/2018  2:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  2:29 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:No way Knox lasts till 12. The Knicks were really high on Knox. I think the Cavs could have gotten pick 36 if they threatened to take Knox.

Why? Who was taking him at 10 or 11?

philly would have

I doubt it. See my response to wargames. The Sixers were in win-now mode and had shown no indication of being interested in dealing with a players' growing pains now that their core is set. They drafted a win-now specialist in Mikal Bridges and then traded him for another win-now specialist in Zhaire Smith. Knox is many things but a specialist or polished? No, sir; he is not.

technomaster
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10/14/2018  11:50 AM
Let's not get too excited (bummed out?) over Knox's apparent growing pains.

The Bridges (who may be more suited to play a role now and forever) are older players will less potential. While they've both realized more of their potential and could end up being better NBA players in the long run (if Knox fails to develop), Knox is quite a bit younger and has better tools and looks like a player who can become 1 or 2 option.

A few player comps (perhaps outliers, but still!) as rookies:
Kobe Bryant - 7.6ppg, 1.3apg, 1.9rpg in 15.5mpg (age 18)
Gordon Hayward - 5.4ppg, 1.1apg, 1.9rpg in 16.9mpg (age 20)
Al Harrington - 2.1ppg, .2apg, 1.9rpg in 7.6mpg (age 18)

Knox just turned 19 in August and is among the youngest rookies.

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newyorknewyork
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10/14/2018  11:50 AM
Knicks fell in love with Knox after his one on one workout. I don't think they would have risked it. But taking SGA and holding him wouldn't have been bad since even if they couldn't make a deal, SGA is a nice prospect to fall back on. But Knicks have never been that high level chess asset collection type. We are at phase one where we just started keeping our draft picks. Baby steps lol. Just think this is the first time in how many years we have had our back to back lottery picks.
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TheGame
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10/14/2018  3:01 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  3:03 PM
The Knicks had a great draft. Knox is having trouble now but there is no reason to doubt that both he and Mitchell are going to turn into solid starting players. If you can go through a draft and get two players that develop into starters, your draft was successful period. Knicks liked Knox and they were not going to play games and risk losing him. Maybe he would have been available at 12 but maybe not. Both philly and the hornets took SFs, so there was no guarantee Knox would have been available. The Knicks also did play chess in not moving up to grab Mitchell, which I read an article they were thinking about doing.
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BigDaddyG
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10/14/2018  3:13 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  3:33 PM
technomaster wrote:Let's not get too excited (bummed out?) over Knox's apparent growing pains.

The Bridges (who may be more suited to play a role now and forever) are older players will less potential. While they've both realized more of their potential and could end up being better NBA players in the long run (if Knox fails to develop), Knox is quite a bit younger and has better tools and looks like a player who can become 1 or 2 option.

A few player comps (perhaps outliers, but still!) as rookies:
Kobe Bryant - 7.6ppg, 1.3apg, 1.9rpg in 15.5mpg (age 18)
Gordon Hayward - 5.4ppg, 1.1apg, 1.9rpg in 16.9mpg (age 20)
Al Harrington - 2.1ppg, .2apg, 1.9rpg in 7.6mpg (age 18)

Knox just turned 19 in August and is among the youngest rookies.

Miles is only a year older than Knox. The real upside advantage Knox has over Miles is size. Miles is a heckuva of a lot more explosive at this point, but that could go with one bad injury. I'm pleased with the Knox pick, but I wouldn't have been bummed out if we picked Miles. I'll admit that I might have been wrong about Mykal, but it's way too early.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
TripleThreat
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10/14/2018  6:26 PM
NardDogNation wrote:So why not do it? Why do the Knicks always miss golden opportunities that other teams routinely capitalize on (see the Sixers and what they did on draft night)? With the NBA being a big fraternity, I can't help but think that teams have moles or some means of open communication that allows them to know the plans/intent of other franchises. So why are the Knicks so bad in reading the tea leaves and exerting leverage in situations like this?


Windhorst is reporting what he was told. Fair enough. But what he is told happens under a very specific format.

Matt Damon was, for a long time, called "The 2nd String Johnny Depp". When Johnny Depp was the desired choice to lead a movie, if he turned it down, the production would often get Matt Damon instead. In interviews, the producers and directors would compliment Damon and say he was the first choice, but Depp, for a time, was simply more marketable and a bigger box office draw.

No matter what the Clippers say in private, SGA was always who they wanted in public discussion. No point in saying anything else. That may or may not be true.

The trade as you describe might not have been there. Costs the Clippers nothing to fudge it and say they wanted SGA so bad, they were willing to give up even more for him. They did give up something, but that may or may not have been true that they'd push farther.

9 to 12/13 is a LONG way off on draft night. Specifically Draft Night, it's tough to see values normally for front offices. Over time, people use hindsight and seems so obvious later, but on draft night, you can only work with what you know so far.

In general, in the NBA, trading back on draft night for volume is odds on the wrong decision. It MIGHT have worked out for the Knicks in this draft, but odds are always against it.

You've got Matt Damon in your movie, but you want Johnny Depp. Everyone wants Johnny Depp. He's a PIRATE! Sometimes you just have to be happy with them apples.

reub
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10/14/2018  8:56 PM
Knox is going to look bad more than good this season. Let's all prepare ourselves for it. He's 19. Hopefully it'll lead to a high lottery pick for us next year, when KP is healthy again and we sign one max free agent. By next season we'll be ready to really compete.

KP
Knox
Robinson
Frank
Butler or Kemba
THJr
Zion

How does that grab you?

smackeddog
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10/15/2018  5:03 AM
You can't wait until AFTER the draft, once it's all played out THEN blast a team for not doing a trade based on that retrospective knowledge. At the time there's no way of knowing who's drafting who after us- it's a risk, so why not just go for the player you like a lot? Imagine if we'd done your trade and the Sixers take Knox, Hornets take Miles Bridges- who are you taking with the 12th and 13th? Mikal has not looked good at all, Lonnie Walker has torn his meniscus again (and may have it removed), Zhaire Smith is out for the year, Michael Porter Jr is likely out for the year.
Cartman718
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10/15/2018  9:32 AM
Nard...Revisiting a draft is just that...revisiting. I do think Knox is going to grow physically and mentally and going to be in beast mode in year 3. Dude has shown flashes. He was able to overpower summer league opponents, obviously not against NBA talent. But have you seen those shoulders...dude sticks to a good weightlifting program and he will be Giannis like with a broader frame. and oh he can shoot unlike Giannis.

The sky is the limit for a 19 year old "precocious neophyte" (clyde-ism) like him.
At that age, he will hit the rookie wall. I'd rather he take his pills in the preseason and realize the amount of work ahead of him than at the end of season 1.

I think the Mavs did great with Doncic and the Knicks did great with Knox, the other teams did as expected and some of them did terrible before and after the Knicks draft position.

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Juliano
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10/15/2018  10:06 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/15/2018  10:07 AM
Cartman718 wrote:I think the Mavs did great with Doncic and the Knicks did great with Knox, the other teams did as expected and some of them did terrible before and after the Knicks draft position.

If Doncic's body is able to sustain the necessary additionnal workload needed to take him up to NBA standard athleticism he'll be a star. The boy can do anything with a basketball, has outstanding court vision, has won every trophy there is at the next best level and although it's only preseason the highlights of his games against the Sixers and the Hornets have shown he's got the skills to get his shot away.

SupremeCommander
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10/15/2018  12:35 PM
I think SGA will be one of the steals of the draft. But I'm pretty happy with Knox and don't think any of the othes that you mentionw ill be anything special so whatever
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Uptown
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10/15/2018  1:02 PM
Knox was the absolute best pick there. He has the most upside of all the players available at the time...I just hope we have some patience this year as he will have good highs, and tremendous lows....One thing to keep in mind, unlike Mitchell and Tatum (who some have compared him to), he doesn't have any all-star players or legit vets to take the pressure off of him during his rookie year.

I can honestly see games where the opponent will game plan for Knox being that we don't have consistent scoring threats....

The Draft Revisited...

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