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TripleThreat
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10/13/2018  12:39 AM
knicks1248 wrote:That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

My personal experience is it can work for a very short while, then becomes emotionally exhausting.

For better or worse, you are living day in and day out with the same people. It's like a successful music band that goes on tour.

Someone might bend the knee for a short while, if you hard roll them, but deep down they resent you and will revert back to their ****heel ways.

Butler is not wrong in that KAT is a piece of ****.

Butler is however wrong in that he can change a piece of **** by rolling him.

You are modifying the CIRCUMSTANCES but not the CHARACTER. Towns has to want to choose greatness on his own.

Butler would have been better off just playing out the string and going to a team first situation like GSW, Heat, Dallas, Spurs, even at a massive pay hit.

If you need an enforcer for character in your young players, it's just means something is wrong with your young players. Towns needs to learn how to not be such a ****ing punk ass piece of ****. (Use some effort, yo) Butler needs to learn how to walk away.

This happened in the Melo/Knicks era, some guys here kept saying get a coach that players will respect without looking at the issue that how Melo played showed he had no respect for anyone.

The answer is to trade ALL of Towns, Butler and Wiggins. Get rid of them all.

A player can be managed if he's difficult. But not if he's a piece of ****. Paul O'Neil was sort of a moody **** on the Yankees. But his effort was always 200 percent. His drive for the game was 200 percent. His effort was 200 percent. Difficult means you are a true professional but you've got some personality glitches. A piece of **** means you aren't acting like a true professional and you have character glitches.

"Should have paid Lin and rid ourselves of Melo. Lin makes every team better." - HofstraBBall 11/12/2018
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Stevo718
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10/13/2018  12:58 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/13/2018  1:00 AM
Hell yeah you trade THJ and Lee or whoever else that’s not in our future core for Butler then you let him walk away at the end of the year and don’t resign him and save a crapload of money and sign someone better for that kinda money. Or better yet sign and trade him for a team with cap space and grab a pick in return.
CrushAlot
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10/13/2018  8:48 AM

Collateral damage from Butler fiasco mounting in Minnesota
No one has escaped unscathed from Jimmy Butler's efforts to force his way out of the Twin Cities
Steve Aschburner
Steve Aschburner NBA.com

@AschNBAArchive

Oct 12, 2018 11:24 PM ET


There's no end in sight to the drama between Jimmy Butler and the Wolves.

MILWAUKEE – As the Minnesota Timberwolves/Jimmy Butler Reality TV Hostage Tour ground through Day 19 Friday, the collateral damage mounted.

Butler and the Wolves once again were in different cities – the team was getting drubbed in its final preseason game on the road against the Bucks while its malcontent All-Star and (*cough*) leader was back in the Twin Cities working on his conditioning, according to coach Tom Thibodeau.

No national TV crew coincidentally happened to be there with him to confirm that claim, though, so media and fans had to take the coach’s word for it.

Still, considering what transpired the previous two days when they all were in the same city, out of sight, out of mind wasn’t necessarily a bad strategy. Butler by all accounts had commandeered practice on Wednesday, arriving late, exiting early, punking teammates and cursing his bosses in between. On Thursday, he did (or maybe didn’t, depending on which Twitter account you believed) convene a players-only meeting after Thibodeau canceled a scheduled workout.

What is increasingly clear is that Butler’s antics and posturing initially intended solely to serve and impact him was having some unpleasant ripple effects on a team that’s about as poorly prepared as any in the league for the start of the regular season next week. The longer it drags on, the more this is certain: No one is going to get out of this untouched. When you’re sitting near a food fight, you’re inevitably going to get splattered.


Here, in no particular order, are people and things that have taken hits thanks to Butler’s craving for attention, his bizarro approach to leadership and his ill-advised way of fulfilling a contract:

Karl-Anthony Towns. Towns has been Butler’s heavy bag before and during this regrettable episode, in the past with criticism of his defense and most recently in remarks by Butler about the big fellow’s work habits and candor. The 22-year-old – who may just be targeted by Butler out of jealousy over the five-year, $190 million contract extension Towns signed last month – has tried to stay out of the fray, only to be yanked in by Butler’s comments to ESPN on Wednesday. Normally an affable, enthusiastic interviewee, Towns went Stepford guy at Friday’s shootaround, repeating a couple of answers regardless of the questions.

Finally, asked if he was tired of the same Butler-driven topics, a glum, dead-eyed Towns said, “Are you tired of hearing me say ‘We’re playing basketball today here in Milwaukee?’” He didn’t smile.

Tom Thibodeau. Thibodeau isn’t blameless in this, but there’s been a piling-on from Minnesota and national media that simply isn’t fair. He did not invite or anticipate Butler’s unprofessional reaction to the Wolves’ grown-up business decision not to dismantle their roster to pay him bigger, sooner, rather than later. Thibodeau arrived with a mandate to end a 13-year playoff drought and did just that after properly identifying Butler as a star through determination and sweat, a veteran who could help the Wolves at both ends of the court and in their locker room.

Thibodeau vouched for Butler to his team owner, Glen Taylor, and to the other players when he acquired the 6-foot-8 swingman from Chicago. He rightfully didn’t throw other helpful players overboard to tear up Butler’s contract this summer, instead offering “only” a four-year, $110 million extension available without shedding some of his teammates.

We all should have the opportunity to go haywire over such an offer.

Now Thibodeau’s great sin is staying loyal both to Butler (given their history with the Bulls) and to the plan that brought the coach to Minnesota. It might wind up costing him his coaching job, his role as Wolves’ chief basketball officer or both.


Will Jimmy Butler still be a Timberwolf when the regular season begins?
Taj Gibson, Jeff Teague and Anthony Tolliver. And any other Wolves player who bought into or signed onto the idea that this was a team on the rise, with key pieces in place for a sustained run of high-seed playoff appearances.

Timberwolves fans. These folks, who either show up diligently at Target Center or keep their powder dry for when they can buy tickets to see a real contender, can’t seem to catch a break. It’s been one bout of dysfunction after another, their team and, by association, themselves cast as laughingstocks in flyover NBA land.

Truth. For a guy who talks a lot about being honest and valuing that in others, Butler sure has been mendacious. He says he wants to win, then designates mediocre or worse franchises as preferred trade destinations. He claims to be a leader, yet can’t cope with Towns or Wiggins and their allegedly oh-so-frustrating natures. Oh, and ESPN just happened to be in the hinterlands – lights, camera, action! – the day Butler hijacks practice.

Right. These theatrics are about money and attention. And maybe a little spite.

Spine. If Thibodeau and Taylor are serious about doing what’s right for their team – rather than what pleases Miami’s Pat Riley, no matter how profane he allegedly gets – they should be looking seriously at the options they have for enforcing their deal with Butler. A fine, a suspension and maybe even a breach-of-contract showdown should be on the table, given his conduct already detrimental to the team. But there is no sense the Wolves are ready to play hardball, or even contemplating it.

It’s disquieting, too, that none of Butler’s teammates has called him on his selfishness. When Kevin Garnett dominated Wolves practices with his game and his mouth, it was fuel and energy for the future Hall of Famer and his teammates. When Butler did that this week, it was all about Jimmy.

Andrew Wiggins. Wait, scratch that. Wiggins can’t be collateral damage. He’s Teflon, or rather, Kevlar, as far as anything touching or rattling him from his eerily unmoved, unmotivated, unaffected centeredness. He wasn’t in Milwaukee Friday either, keeping vigil for the birth of his first child. With that, his dog, his video-game console and his five-year, $147 million contract, life is good with or without Butler.


http://www.nba.com/article/2018/10/12/butler-collateral-damage-mounting-timberwolves
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
Nalod
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10/13/2018  10:10 AM
Stevo718 wrote:Hell yeah you trade THJ and Lee or whoever else that’s not in our future core for Butler then you let him walk away at the end of the year and don’t resign him and save a crapload of money and sign someone better for that kinda money. Or better yet sign and trade him for a team with cap space and grab a pick in return.

We say this all the time but it don't happen and there is not an abundance of "better" players to always sign.
Its abstract to say this.
Its Logical, but not practical.

You don't show a fool a job half done!
NardDogNation
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10/13/2018  11:07 PM
Nalod wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Timmy game will speak for itself over the next few weeks. There was a point last season when he calmed down this team was over .500 and he was coming around. After KP went down he as the no. 1 option a very new place for him.
He got hurt. He came back rusty but had a few good games. A 39 pt game. The team was awful.
54mil over 4 years. Alan Crabbe Money.
His play will sort it all out in time and perhaps if he is even tradable. I’m not that high on this roster making the playoffs but will instead be a lottery type team. On paper a good thing long term but losing 55 games sucks! Even if the team plays hard, its still awful and the media will berate it all. That means all our precious youth will be scrutinized by the short term writers, bloggers and starphuchers will howl for instant gradification.
Timmy had an uneven 17pt avg season. Had spots where his % was ok and an inflated restricted type contract he had yet to earn but thats how you have to grab the restricted to sign.

You spin a positive outlook on every suspect move we make. I specifically remember you doing the same thing with the Tyson Chandler-trade and Andrea Bargnani-trade when it was obvious that they both were horrendous. Why do you do this when I know, you know better?

I'm not even sure you believe the argument you're making for THJr. You're justifying him being grossly overpaid because he played on a team that played .500-ish (i.e. medicore) basketball, which seems like a stretch. He's clearly not core to this team's or any teams' success yet is being paid like one, which has and will continue to handicap this team. And at 26 years old, there is no reasonable expectation he can improve enough to come close to justify the money he's being paid. So why defend him now when we have the evidence that bringing him back at that number was an awful decision?

Answer me this: what franchises could THJr be a rotation with as their rosters currently stand? Because off the top of my head, I could name about a third of the league where he wouldn't see the light of day and some of them are pretty mediocre (e.g. the Heat, the Pacers, the Nuggets, the Raptors, the Celtics, the Warriors, maybe the Cavs....). That's not someone you pay $18 million/yr too.

Im a fan. The Chandler deal was good but my angle was we turned Bilups by waiving him and using that money to sign chandler. We had to, we had just gotten Melo and had no players! His first year cost the team $28 mil! 14 for chauns, 14 for him!!! few teams can swallow that much money!!! Remember at that moment in time he was just DPOY. I was not for the Melo deal but once done, you have to go to that moment in time.
The Bargnani deal? Kid was young and needed a fresh place. He had a skill set that might be better suited to todays game. He was still young. Nalod does not ever want a 1st round pick traded. Never ever. But the deeper this team was with Stat-Melo-Chandler there was this trade. All I did was paint the thinking as what was decided and let it fall. Who cares what you or I think or like a deal? Once done no whining and "Told you so" matters. Im simply trying to remind what was decided at that moment in time and remember nobody knows the outcome. I hated Marbury because his toxic nature at every stop. I was not for the Melo deal not because of him but we had few assets to surround him. Contrast is not that we kept those players forever either. Maybe we keep our picks with that group we have some lottery picks that changes everything. Contrast only that we would have gotten Deron Williams I fear.
Im not a homer per se but my outlook is "it is what it is" and no matter who is in charge I want it to work out. I loved the Phil Jax move and had hoped he'd transition his successful acumen to a new role. His problem was not that he was old, his problem was he thought like a coach and did not change. Mills as GM was a new role for him and perhaps the experience made him more rounded for what his original job had been post Grunwald which was as team president. At the very least Phil bought the end of Starphuching and we broke the cycle of short term building around Melo.

As for Hardaway, the real test would be putting him on one of those good teams and see if the level of play pulls him up. He is not an alpha player nor is he paid like one. Its something we don't know. I know what I saw at times last year when he was healthy and the team was complete. It was a glimpse.

Being a fan does not mean you have to suspend your critical thinking abilities. A **** sandwich will be exactly that. All those moves were awful from Day 1 and there simply was no way around it.

As for Hardaway, there is no "real test" for him. He's a bad value proposition no matter how you put it. Rodney Hood is a similar (albeit better) ball player than Hardaway and he couldn't find a team to offer him a multi-year deal this offseason. Same situation with Wayne Ellington. Josh Richardson is a superior player to the aforementioned and he will make $22 million less than Hardaway over the life of their contracts. The reality of the market is that guys like Hardaway are not worth nearly as much as he is being paid, which makes him a net negative asset for us moving forward. And the sad thing is that Damyean Dotson might be able to do a lot of the things Hardaway does but won't get the playing time, so that the team can justify a bad decision.

NardDogNation
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10/13/2018  11:25 PM
Nalod wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

Stating the obvious. There are a few posters who keep pushing he was a good signing but the guy is awful. That contract may very well cost us our ability to contend. Without that contract we could get ourselves to 60 million in cap space and a real shot at 2 max players. Knowing Porzingis would need to be maxed out made the contract even more ridiculous. Not only that but what team president makes huge long-term cap commitments before he signs a GM? I mean WTF. It's the reason I am still skeptical about this front office.

Judging by the responses you've read so far, am I?

Like you, this makes me highly suspicious of this front office. Even the handling of the Hezonja contract makes me suspect about their decision-making ability. After all, why only give him a one year deal? If he breaks out (which I think is a possibility), we basically just subsidized his development for another team, which offers us no on-court value or trade assets . We've had a pattern of doing this like with guys like Jeremy Lin, Langston Galloway, Chris Copeland and other talent we've developed that could've fetched at least a good second pick if we had control on them like the Sixers had with Robert Covington and TJ McConnell. Some might think that getting those second rounders would be a meaningless exercise but maybe having a cache of them saves us from having to include a first round pick, for the privilege of acquiring a Andrea Bargnani or gutting our own draft assets for Marcus Camby or Raymond Felton.

That aside, I'm at least encouraged by the general direction of the franchise. We needed to accept a rebuild and finally look to generate value by growing from within. But if a Darryl Morey becomes available, which has been rumored....we need to have a fire-sale of our front office. Guys like him understand the machinations involved in building a winner and how to utilize leverage. Just look at how easily he got Chris Paul without giving up any of his core pieces. If that were us, we would've been looking like the Billy King Nets for the next 5 seasons.

Hezonja took less to player here. If he breaks out we value him accordingly. If Knox breaks out we value Mario accordingly and let him walk regardless.
Lin, Gallo, and Copeland have not lived up to early hype. We were good to not lock them up.
Most second round picks don't work out.
The Sixers up until last year were a laughing stock and now they are the benchmark? I liked what they were doing as they had a plan. It was fragmented but it worked out over a couple of years.
Knicks need a plan and stick to it. Our record speaks for itself. Sometimes good decisions don't work out.
Remember they laughed at Morey also. He ate **** until he got the cap space. But Drafting Capella was a huge piece.
There was a plan.
Think about Morey, was he always Morey or only until he was winning? Knicks have to stop chasing past winner and develop their own. Hiring Morey does nothing but start a new process. We have been doing that for decades. These guys don't want to come here unless there is an abundance of assets to work with. Phil was silly to even try to build a short term with Noah-Rose-Melo given their health issues. Morey here Instead of Phil don't get you last years Rocket team. This is what fans think. Its the starphuch.
Maybe Mills/perry is the next new thing. ONe year in and we basing our confidence on Hardaway and Mario? Based on that we want to starphuch another GM?
Guess what, Morey made mistakes too. Hinkie at Philly was run out of town and laughed at. Indy traded PG13 and was laughed at. Riley is god who has a list of idiot signings to his resume. Mills has Hardaway after one year and Perry can't win. If Mario is good he loses, if he is a bust he wasted minutes and salary. Mario won't be larry bird in one year. Don't worry. If he is, we have his Bird rights. Mario reportedly took less to be here on a short deal.

I don't view Knox and Hezonja as an either/or proposition. I think both players can play meaningful minutes with one another, which is yet another reason why I think signing Hezonja to a one-year deal was a mistake. Should that assumption be proved right, Hezonja will come back to the table this offseason and demand even more money, which hurts us in the long-run.

Winning teams are winning teams not just because of talent. They are also winning teams because they underpay their players enough to create the flexibility necessary to continue building e.g. paying Stephen Curry $11M/yr, which created enough cap flexibility to bring in Kevin Durant. The Knicks missed an opportunity to do that in order to have cap space in 2019 for a phantom star that will never materialize.

I suppose that leaves the money necessary to re-sign Hezonja long-term, right? But after just one-season of losing basketball, can you accurately gauge what his contributions are worth on a properly functioning team? Conditions like this are exactly how good basketball players become overpaid and net-negative assets, which is yet another way our team gets hurt in this scenario.

This is why the proper course of action was to offer Hezonja a long-termed deal with team friendly outs in his contract. It would've given us an opportunity to gauge his worth to the team and allowed us to freely develop him as we saw fit. If he outplayed the value of that contract, he's a net-positive asset AND we would have gotten the opportunity to trade him for other assets if re-signing him became too expensive a proposition. Reasoning and logic like that is how you build a winner. Doing what you are suggesting on the other hand is why we're always strapped for assets and end up trading lottery picks for the Eddy Curry's and Andrea Bargnani's of the world.

And I would recommend you go back and look at Darryl Morey's transaction history. Outside the first stint of Trevor Ariza in Houston, I can't think of a single player he's overpaid and even that deal is debatable. And if you remember correctly, they have consistently been one of the deeper teams in the league, which is how they ended up winning 21 games WITHOUT Yao Ming and Tracy McGrady many moons ago. The man is a savant because he's not only concerned about signing big-ticketed players. It's how he's managed to develop the asset base to TRADE for guys like James Harden and Chris Paul without completely gutting his team. We badly need that type know-how.

NardDogNation
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10/13/2018  11:29 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
arkrud wrote:Normal place to be. Most of the contracts are break even in value. Some are steels and some busts.
Its all variance driven. You cannot win the lottery without buying the tickets.
Except of some sure things most of the players are an educated guess, Hardaway included.


This shows a deep misunderstanding of the concept of a "lottery ticket" in resource management terms.

In professional sports, if you FAIL the resource management part of the game, you fail before the ball gets on the court.

Kent Bazemore is a good cross example. As a young player, he did not get minutes with the Warriors. Hawks got him for 2 years / 4 million , he played very well. His lack of minutes was because of talent load at GSW, not a reflection of his abilities. This is a LOTTERY TICKET. His next contract was an albatross. Long contract, high AAV. This is an INVESTMENT.

The Knicks made an INVESTMENT in THJr. Based on 1/2 of a decent season with the Hawks. They also made an investment when they drafted him. And he failed them. Much of it was his undisciplined play. The Knicks invested in a player a SECOND TIME when he failed them the first time.

The contract is indefensible. THJr was sitting all that offseason. No one else was going to give him that kind of AAV/length.

A good investment is only doing so when there is actual evidence that you can get a solid return back. THJr in his first run with the Knicks, often played like a total ****head. It wasn't just rookie pains/blues, he was just sort of a selfish ****head.

This kind of scenario is presented in pro sports front office type interviews all the time. I've spent some time in plenty of front offices and in draft war rooms, if some guy trying to come up gave the answer you gave, they would kick him out of the ****ing building. The term is called "Pack Your Trash" You get a big 55 gallon trash bag/contractor bag, and you have to put all your **** in it and security walks you out. Some teams even have "code phrases" to alert each other on a guy who needs to get kicked the **** out right now.

Steve Mills could no longer hide behind someone else. Many front office guys on the edge, they need to say to their owner, I did something, this year, something I can use to justify keeping my job. Phil Jackson FUCKED the Knicks for four years for Rose/Noah/Lee/Thomas so he could try to justify staying a little longer. Mills FUCKED the Knicks on THJr so he could go to a meeting with Dolan and say, well I did this to make the team better.

I make it a point on this forum, when I post, when I disagree with people ( which is often) to acknowledge their right to their own views. Some people don't act that way, but some people are basically a bunch of worthless ****suckers. If you feel THJrs contract is a lottery ticket, then that's your view. No one can take that from you. But if you walked into a real NBA front office, a competent one, and said the same thing, they'd hand you a trash bag.

Personally, I'd get a couple of interns to take your stuff from your cubicle, then get 200 rolls of duct tape, and put all your stuff in the center, and empty all the roll into a giant duct tape ball. And if you want your house keys, you'll have to find your way to the center. You'll have to roll it out of the building. So big you couldn't put it in a car. Then on the outside, I'd have someone spray paint on the outside, "The best part of prison was showering with other men. I miss you so much, Tyrone"

When you and Tyrone cuddled, were you the spoon? Or the spooner?

I suspected you were a part of a team's front office at some point in your career. I wouldn't be surprised if you were a subordinate for Donnie Walsh during that period, seeing how fiercely you've defended. I generally have too much pride to ask another man for anything but I've been interested in trying to "get on" for a while in the NBA and was wondering if you had some advice about where to start. I If you could offer some insight, I would be greatly appreciative.

NardDogNation
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10/13/2018  11:31 PM
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

As desperate a situation as the Wolves might be in, I doubt they bungle their finances even more by making that deal. They'd be better served letting Butler walk, than committing to multiple years of the tax in order to accommodate two role players.

NardDogNation
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10/13/2018  11:37 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

We screwed up with that signing. I'm not saying Tim sucks, but we overpaid big time and our cap situation is suffering. You don't go out and overpay for a solid starting she/ quality sixth-man when you have a roster in flux like ours. Rodney hood, who is at about the same level as Tim, got considerably less. I'm rooting for Tim, but the signing was misguided and poorly negotiated. I would have preferred if we had taken the Sean Marks approach and used our cap space to collect draft picks and other assets.

Agreed. I've never understood this franchise's drive to win the headlines by making boneheaded decisions like THJr. You would think that we'd be one of the few teams impervious to that type of attitude since we move merchandise (tickets, memorabilia, etc.) regardless of how bad we are. It's such a huge advantage we have over 26 or so teams in the league and in spite of it, we constantly pressures ourselves into doing the wrong thing for short-term rewards (if any).

Marv
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10/14/2018  9:39 AM
i think we’re all in agreement that timmy’s not that good a player and that he’s paid too much money. but i hardly think he’s the most important issue on our roster. to me the key is coming out of this year identifying 4 key pieces from the current squad as the core to build on. my money’s on frank, knox, mitch and trier. add them to kp, our upcoming #1, timmy, maybe 1 or 2 of vonleh, kornet, burke, hezonia and a FA or 2 and we’re good to go. but the key has to be the emergence of the core 4 as our base.
“This board has become a repository for mentally unstable attention seekers. Or gimmick posters.” - sebstar
TripleThreat
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10/14/2018  10:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  11:15 AM
NardDogNation wrote:I've been interested in trying to "get on" for a while in the NBA and was wondering if you had some advice about where to start. I If you could offer some insight, I would be greatly appreciative.


For someone completely on the outside of something like the NBA, meaning not a former player nor any college ties to current or former NBA guys nor typical nepotism ( the guy is someone's nephew), the best pathway is likely going to be as a "capologist". ( A background in math, statistics and programming would be useful)

The CBA's of the American pro sports are actually very complex. For example, Larry Coon's CBA faq is often cited by non industry people but only scratches the surface.

Making the money work and projecting how to not burn out future years cap wise against the current year is an artform into itself. It's one of the few areas of expertise where you are forced into literally every critical front office decision. If no one else in the franchise can operate that way besides you, you can be in meeting with the owner, the head coach, the GM and the scouts and say, "This is not possible" and the conversation end. The money works or it doesn't. The problem specifically with the NBA is that they have small rosters, a pretty locked in salary system and close to zero market inefficiencies. People in general would have the best luck in MLB ( big teams, big rosters, deep farm systems, less of a gap between talent tiers) The problem with the NBA is being "smarter" is often irrelevant. No matter how smart Scott Perry might be ( or not) he's hamstrung by ****ty contracts, a limited draft pool, a limited FA pool. In the NFL, with non guaranteed contracts as the norm, the ability to use those "smarts" changes. If I was a total stranger to pro sports and wanted to break in, the NBA would be my last choice.

Like any industry, people want to work with guys they know and like. Proximity is always critical. If you want to break into acting, working in the casting department as a low level intern is a good backdoor. Casting is boring and attrition. Imagine seeing 600 people, who all look about the same, reading the same lines, day after day, over and over. The casting people spend a lot of time together, a lot of down time. So sometimes the casting director will give a little "gift" and give someone in their department a little speaking part, so they can get their SAG card. Some have parlayed that into a career. Going to or working at the Equinox in LA or NY is how some others try to break in. If a celebrity director is working out three times a week there and you are his personal trainer and you have a script idea, well you get the point.

Running in the same social circles is how you get into the context of someone who can help you.

By and large, people don't react to how you feel about yourself. People don't give a **** about you. What they care about is how being near and around you makes them feel about THEMSELVES. This is why commonality creates such strong bonds. If you are the same race, lived in the same neighborhood, went to the same kind of schools, have the same kind of career paths, have the same kind of hobbies, etc, etc, then odds are that person will want to relate with you and help you. You become a reflection of themselves. Since they only want to see themselves in a good light, they will by extension tend to see you in a good light.

Things you can do

- Visit something like the Sloan Sports Conference in Houston. Don't go looking to network, just go to learn and immerse yourself in the dynamic.

- Read the actual NBA CBA line by line and understand it. I mean work it hard. Start an online site or blog breaking it down and how it applies to the current marketplace ( many do this already, but only at a cursory level) Say enough interesting ****, be an interesting enough resource and someone will find you. A network might grow from it.

- Build a strategy to infiltrate the social circle of front office guys in the NBA.

- Marry the sister/daughter of someone important

It's high competition, it's hard to break in, if you get in, you've essentially sold your life away while you are in the game. It is your life. You might as well put a cot in your office and live there.

When Tom Landry was let go by the Cowboys, not just anyone, but the great Tom Landry, he lay down face first onto the floor, in front of everyone, and couldn't stop crying. It looks like a glamorous lifestyle, but everyone I know who has done it for a career, at some level, it break them as a person. It's like ****ing a hot chick. To others on the outside, it seems like you've got it all. And to start it's fun and cool and everyone envies you. Then you realize you have many of the same issues with a girl who wasn't hot. A career in professional sports is no different. On the outside,seems so awesome,but at some level, it's like any other job. Stress, expectation, dealing with ****ty people, compromise, politics, etc, etc.

Good luck dude. I wouldn't wish the life of a front office foot soldier on my worst enemy.

"Should have paid Lin and rid ourselves of Melo. Lin makes every team better." - HofstraBBall 11/12/2018
GustavBahler
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10/14/2018  11:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/14/2018  11:26 AM
NardDogNation wrote:I've been interested in trying to "get on" for a while in the NBA and was wondering if you had some advice about where to start. I If you could offer some insight, I would be greatly appreciative.

I understand this was not directed at me. If you're still studying to be a doctor, Id go that route. Sports Medicine. You're already on that track. Lots of places to work. Places which treat or train pro athletes. Been to some of these places as a patient. A good way to build a resume, network.

Seems a shame not using your medical training to help get you there.

Sorta OT:

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