[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

Sorta OT:
Author Thread
NardDogNation
Posts: 26778
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

10/11/2018  1:03 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/11/2018  1:12 AM
I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

AUTOADVERT
Jmpasq
Posts: 23473
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

10/11/2018  5:48 AM
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

Stating the obvious. There are a few posters who keep pushing he was a good signing but the guy is awful. That contract may very well cost us our ability to contend. Without that contract we could get ourselves to 60 million in cap space and a real shot at 2 max players. Knowing Porzingis would need to be maxed out made the contract even more ridiculous. Not only that but what team president makes huge long-term cap commitments before he signs a GM? I mean WTF. It's the reason I am still skeptical about this front office.

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
Nalod
Posts: 56032
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/11/2018  7:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/11/2018  7:35 AM
Timmy game will speak for itself over the next few weeks. There was a point last season when he calmed down this team was over .500 and he was coming around. After KP went down he as the no. 1 option a very new place for him.
He got hurt. He came back rusty but had a few good games. A 39 pt game. The team was awful.
54mil over 4 years. Alan Crabbe Money.
His play will sort it all out in time and perhaps if he is even tradable. I’m not that high on this roster making the playoffs but will instead be a lottery type team. On paper a good thing long term but losing 55 games sucks! Even if the team plays hard, its still awful and the media will berate it all. That means all our precious youth will be scrutinized by the short term writers, bloggers and starphuchers will howl for instant gradification.
Timmy had an uneven 17pt avg season. Had spots where his % was ok and an inflated restricted type contract he had yet to earn but thats how you have to grab the restricted to sign.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Jmpasq
Posts: 23473
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

10/11/2018  7:49 AM
Nalod wrote:Timmy game will speak for itself over the next few weeks. There was a point last season when he calmed down this team was over .500 and he was coming around. After KP went down he as the no. 1 option a very new place for him.
He got hurt. He came back rusty but had a few good games. A 39 pt game. The team was awful.
54mil over 4 years. Alan Crabbe Money.
His play will sort it all out in time and perhaps if he is even tradable. I’m not that high on this roster making the playoffs but will instead be a lottery type team. On paper a good thing long term but losing 55 games sucks! Even if the team plays hard, its still awful and the media will berate it all. That means all our precious youth will be scrutinized by the short term writers, bloggers and starphuchers will howl for instant gradification.
Timmy had an uneven 17pt avg season. Had spots where his % was ok and an inflated restricted type contract he had yet to earn but thats how you have to grab the restricted to sign.

I will ask this again why did we have to have Tim Hardaway Jr.? Steve Mills treated Hardaway Jr. as a guy the Knicks could not live without. The best we can hope for is he is worth his contract. Thats a terrible place to be
Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
arkrud
Posts: 31084
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
10/11/2018  8:20 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
Nalod wrote:Timmy game will speak for itself over the next few weeks. There was a point last season when he calmed down this team was over .500 and he was coming around. After KP went down he as the no. 1 option a very new place for him.
He got hurt. He came back rusty but had a few good games. A 39 pt game. The team was awful.
54mil over 4 years. Alan Crabbe Money.
His play will sort it all out in time and perhaps if he is even tradable. I’m not that high on this roster making the playoffs but will instead be a lottery type team. On paper a good thing long term but losing 55 games sucks! Even if the team plays hard, its still awful and the media will berate it all. That means all our precious youth will be scrutinized by the short term writers, bloggers and starphuchers will howl for instant gradification.
Timmy had an uneven 17pt avg season. Had spots where his % was ok and an inflated restricted type contract he had yet to earn but thats how you have to grab the restricted to sign.

I will ask this again why did we have to have Tim Hardaway Jr.? Steve Mills treated Hardaway Jr. as a guy the Knicks could not live without. The best we can hope for is he is worth his contract. Thats a terrible place to be

Normal place to be. Most of the contracts are break even in value. Some are steels and some busts.
Its all variance driven. You cannot win the lottery without buying the tickets.
Except of some sure things most of the players are an educated guess, Hardaway included.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
NardDogNation
Posts: 26778
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

10/11/2018  9:49 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/11/2018  9:54 AM
Nalod wrote:Timmy game will speak for itself over the next few weeks. There was a point last season when he calmed down this team was over .500 and he was coming around. After KP went down he as the no. 1 option a very new place for him.
He got hurt. He came back rusty but had a few good games. A 39 pt game. The team was awful.
54mil over 4 years. Alan Crabbe Money.
His play will sort it all out in time and perhaps if he is even tradable. I’m not that high on this roster making the playoffs but will instead be a lottery type team. On paper a good thing long term but losing 55 games sucks! Even if the team plays hard, its still awful and the media will berate it all. That means all our precious youth will be scrutinized by the short term writers, bloggers and starphuchers will howl for instant gradification.
Timmy had an uneven 17pt avg season. Had spots where his % was ok and an inflated restricted type contract he had yet to earn but thats how you have to grab the restricted to sign.

You spin a positive outlook on every suspect move we make. I specifically remember you doing the same thing with the Tyson Chandler-trade and Andrea Bargnani-trade when it was obvious that they both were horrendous. Why do you do this when I know, you know better?

I'm not even sure you believe the argument you're making for THJr. You're justifying him being grossly overpaid because he played on a team that played .500-ish (i.e. medicore) basketball, which seems like a stretch. He's clearly not core to a successful team but is being paid like one, which is the kind of mistake that teams seldom recover from. And at 26 years old, there is no reasonable expectation he can improve enough to come close to justifying the money he's being paid. So why defend him now when we have the evidence that bringing him back at that number was an awful decision?

Answer me this: what franchises could THJr be a rotation player with as their rosters are currently constructed? Because off the top of my head, I could name about a third of the league where he wouldn't see the light of day and some of them are pretty mediocre (e.g. the Heat, the Pacers, the Nuggets, the Raptors, the Celtics, the Warriors, maybe the Cavs....). Needless to say, a player of this eschelon is not someone you pay $18 million/yr too.

Nalod
Posts: 56032
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/11/2018  10:06 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
Nalod wrote:Timmy game will speak for itself over the next few weeks. There was a point last season when he calmed down this team was over .500 and he was coming around. After KP went down he as the no. 1 option a very new place for him.
He got hurt. He came back rusty but had a few good games. A 39 pt game. The team was awful.
54mil over 4 years. Alan Crabbe Money.
His play will sort it all out in time and perhaps if he is even tradable. I’m not that high on this roster making the playoffs but will instead be a lottery type team. On paper a good thing long term but losing 55 games sucks! Even if the team plays hard, its still awful and the media will berate it all. That means all our precious youth will be scrutinized by the short term writers, bloggers and starphuchers will howl for instant gradification.
Timmy had an uneven 17pt avg season. Had spots where his % was ok and an inflated restricted type contract he had yet to earn but thats how you have to grab the restricted to sign.

You spin a positive outlook on every suspect move we make. I specifically remember you doing the same thing with the Tyson Chandler-trade and Andrea Bargnani-trade when it was obvious that they both were horrendous. Why do you do this when I know, you know better?

I'm not even sure you believe the argument you're making for THJr. You're justifying him being grossly overpaid because he played on a team that played .500-ish (i.e. medicore) basketball, which seems like a stretch. He's clearly not core to this team's or any teams' success yet is being paid like one, which has and will continue to handicap this team. And at 26 years old, there is no reasonable expectation he can improve enough to come close to justify the money he's being paid. So why defend him now when we have the evidence that bringing him back at that number was an awful decision?

Answer me this: what franchises could THJr be a rotation with as their rosters currently stand? Because off the top of my head, I could name about a third of the league where he wouldn't see the light of day and some of them are pretty mediocre (e.g. the Heat, the Pacers, the Nuggets, the Raptors, the Celtics, the Warriors, maybe the Cavs....). That's not someone you pay $18 million/yr too.

Im a fan. The Chandler deal was good but my angle was we turned Bilups by waiving him and using that money to sign chandler. We had to, we had just gotten Melo and had no players! His first year cost the team $28 mil! 14 for chauns, 14 for him!!! few teams can swallow that much money!!! Remember at that moment in time he was just DPOY. I was not for the Melo deal but once done, you have to go to that moment in time.
The Bargnani deal? Kid was young and needed a fresh place. He had a skill set that might be better suited to todays game. He was still young. Nalod does not ever want a 1st round pick traded. Never ever. But the deeper this team was with Stat-Melo-Chandler there was this trade. All I did was paint the thinking as what was decided and let it fall. Who cares what you or I think or like a deal? Once done no whining and "Told you so" matters. Im simply trying to remind what was decided at that moment in time and remember nobody knows the outcome. I hated Marbury because his toxic nature at every stop. I was not for the Melo deal not because of him but we had few assets to surround him. Contrast is not that we kept those players forever either. Maybe we keep our picks with that group we have some lottery picks that changes everything. Contrast only that we would have gotten Deron Williams I fear.
Im not a homer per se but my outlook is "it is what it is" and no matter who is in charge I want it to work out. I loved the Phil Jax move and had hoped he'd transition his successful acumen to a new role. His problem was not that he was old, his problem was he thought like a coach and did not change. Mills as GM was a new role for him and perhaps the experience made him more rounded for what his original job had been post Grunwald which was as team president. At the very least Phil bought the end of Starphuching and we broke the cycle of short term building around Melo.

As for Hardaway, the real test would be putting him on one of those good teams and see if the level of play pulls him up. He is not an alpha player nor is he paid like one. Its something we don't know. I know what I saw at times last year when he was healthy and the team was complete. It was a glimpse.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
NardDogNation
Posts: 26778
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 5/7/2013
Member: #5555

10/11/2018  10:11 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/11/2018  10:24 AM
Jmpasq wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

Stating the obvious. There are a few posters who keep pushing he was a good signing but the guy is awful. That contract may very well cost us our ability to contend. Without that contract we could get ourselves to 60 million in cap space and a real shot at 2 max players. Knowing Porzingis would need to be maxed out made the contract even more ridiculous. Not only that but what team president makes huge long-term cap commitments before he signs a GM? I mean WTF. It's the reason I am still skeptical about this front office.

Judging by the responses you've read so far, am I?

Like you, this makes me highly suspicious of this front office. Even the handling of the Hezonja contract makes me suspect about their decision-making ability. After all, why only give him a one year deal? If he breaks out (which I think is a possibility), we basically just subsidized his development for another team, which offers us no on-court value or trade assets if he just walks. We've had a pattern of doing this: guys like Jeremy Lin, Langston Galloway, Chris Copeland and other talent we've developed could've fetched at least a good second pick if we had control on them like the Sixers had with Robert Covington and TJ McConnell. Some might think that getting those second rounders would be a meaningless exercise but maybe having a cache of them saves us from having to include a first round pick, for the privilege of acquiring a Andrea Bargnani or gutting our own draft assets for Marcus Camby or Raymond Felton. When you think of the players that were available with the 9th pick in the 2016 draft (Domatas Sabonis, Jokab Poetl, Juan Hernangomez) and some of the second round picks available in the 30s the past several years with our traded picks (e.g. Jokic, Josh Richardson, Dwight Powell, Isiah Thomas, Spencer Dinwiddie, Chandler Parsons, etc.), we could've been in a significantly better place and it all would've been possible by managing the cap better.

That aside, I'm at least encouraged by the general direction of the franchise. We needed to accept a rebuild and finally look to generate value by growing from within. But if a Darryl Morey becomes available, which has been rumored....we need to have a fire-sale of our front office. Guys like him understand the machinations involved in building a winner and how to utilize leverage. Just look at how easily he got Chris Paul without giving up any of his core pieces. If that were us, we would've been looking like the Billy King Nets for the next 5 seasons.

Nalod
Posts: 56032
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/11/2018  10:28 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/11/2018  2:40 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

Stating the obvious. There are a few posters who keep pushing he was a good signing but the guy is awful. That contract may very well cost us our ability to contend. Without that contract we could get ourselves to 60 million in cap space and a real shot at 2 max players. Knowing Porzingis would need to be maxed out made the contract even more ridiculous. Not only that but what team president makes huge long-term cap commitments before he signs a GM? I mean WTF. It's the reason I am still skeptical about this front office.

Judging by the responses you've read so far, am I?

Like you, this makes me highly suspicious of this front office. Even the handling of the Hezonja contract makes me suspect about their decision-making ability. After all, why only give him a one year deal? If he breaks out (which I think is a possibility), we basically just subsidized his development for another team, which offers us no on-court value or trade assets . We've had a pattern of doing this like with guys like Jeremy Lin, Langston Galloway, Chris Copeland and other talent we've developed that could've fetched at least a good second pick if we had control on them like the Sixers had with Robert Covington and TJ McConnell. Some might think that getting those second rounders would be a meaningless exercise but maybe having a cache of them saves us from having to include a first round pick, for the privilege of acquiring a Andrea Bargnani or gutting our own draft assets for Marcus Camby or Raymond Felton.

That aside, I'm at least encouraged by the general direction of the franchise. We needed to accept a rebuild and finally look to generate value by growing from within. But if a Darryl Morey becomes available, which has been rumored....we need to have a fire-sale of our front office. Guys like him understand the machinations involved in building a winner and how to utilize leverage. Just look at how easily he got Chris Paul without giving up any of his core pieces. If that were us, we would've been looking like the Billy King Nets for the next 5 seasons.

Hezonja took less to player here. If he breaks out we value him accordingly. If Knox breaks out we value Mario accordingly and let him walk regardless.
Lin, Gallo, and Copeland have not lived up to early hype. We were good to not lock them up.
Most second round picks don't work out.
The Sixers up until last year were a laughing stock and now they are the benchmark? I liked what they were doing as they had a plan. It was fragmented but it worked out over a couple of years.
Knicks need a plan and stick to it. Our record speaks for itself. Sometimes good decisions don't work out.
Remember they laughed at Morey also. He ate **** until he got the cap space. But Drafting Capella was a huge piece.
There was a plan.
Think about Morey, was he always Morey or only until he was winning? Knicks have to stop chasing past winner and develop their own. Hiring Morey does nothing but start a new process. We have been doing that for decades. These guys don't want to come here unless there is an abundance of assets to work with. Phil was silly to even try to build a short term with Noah-Rose-Melo given their health issues. Morey here Instead of Phil don't get you last years Rocket team. This is what fans think. Its the starphuch.
Maybe Mills/perry is the next new thing. ONe year in and we basing our confidence on Hardaway and Mario? Based on that we want to starphuch another GM?
Guess what, Morey made mistakes too. Hinkie at Philly was run out of town and laughed at. Indy traded PG13 and was laughed at. Riley is god who has a list of idiot signings to his resume. Mills has Hardaway after one year and Perry can't win. If Mario is good he loses, if he is a bust he wasted minutes and salary. Mario won't be larry bird in one year. Don't worry. If he is, we have his Bird rights. Mario reportedly took less to be here on a short deal.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
TripleThreat
Posts: 21980
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

10/11/2018  1:22 PM
arkrud wrote:Normal place to be. Most of the contracts are break even in value. Some are steels and some busts.
Its all variance driven. You cannot win the lottery without buying the tickets.
Except of some sure things most of the players are an educated guess, Hardaway included.


This shows a deep misunderstanding of the concept of a "lottery ticket" in resource management terms.

In professional sports, if you FAIL the resource management part of the game, you fail before the ball gets on the court.

Kent Bazemore is a good cross example. As a young player, he did not get minutes with the Warriors. Hawks got him for 2 years / 4 million , he played very well. His lack of minutes was because of talent load at GSW, not a reflection of his abilities. This is a LOTTERY TICKET. His next contract was an albatross. Long contract, high AAV. This is an INVESTMENT.

The Knicks made an INVESTMENT in THJr. Based on 1/2 of a decent season with the Hawks. They also made an investment when they drafted him. And he failed them. Much of it was his undisciplined play. The Knicks invested in a player a SECOND TIME when he failed them the first time.

The contract is indefensible. THJr was sitting all that offseason. No one else was going to give him that kind of AAV/length.

A good investment is only doing so when there is actual evidence that you can get a solid return back. THJr in his first run with the Knicks, often played like a total ****head. It wasn't just rookie pains/blues, he was just sort of a selfish ****head.

This kind of scenario is presented in pro sports front office type interviews all the time. I've spent some time in plenty of front offices and in draft war rooms, if some guy trying to come up gave the answer you gave, they would kick him out of the ****ing building. The term is called "Pack Your Trash" You get a big 55 gallon trash bag/contractor bag, and you have to put all your **** in it and security walks you out. Some teams even have "code phrases" to alert each other on a guy who needs to get kicked the **** out right now.

Steve Mills could no longer hide behind someone else. Many front office guys on the edge, they need to say to their owner, I did something, this year, something I can use to justify keeping my job. Phil Jackson FUCKED the Knicks for four years for Rose/Noah/Lee/Thomas so he could try to justify staying a little longer. Mills FUCKED the Knicks on THJr so he could go to a meeting with Dolan and say, well I did this to make the team better.

I make it a point on this forum, when I post, when I disagree with people ( which is often) to acknowledge their right to their own views. Some people don't act that way, but some people are basically a bunch of worthless ****suckers. If you feel THJrs contract is a lottery ticket, then that's your view. No one can take that from you. But if you walked into a real NBA front office, a competent one, and said the same thing, they'd hand you a trash bag.

Personally, I'd get a couple of interns to take your stuff from your cubicle, then get 200 rolls of duct tape, and put all your stuff in the center, and empty all the roll into a giant duct tape ball. And if you want your house keys, you'll have to find your way to the center. You'll have to roll it out of the building. So big you couldn't put it in a car. Then on the outside, I'd have someone spray paint on the outside, "The best part of prison was showering with other men. I miss you so much, Tyrone"

When you and Tyrone cuddled, were you the spoon? Or the spooner?

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Nalod
Posts: 56032
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/11/2018  2:46 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
arkrud wrote:Normal place to be. Most of the contracts are break even in value. Some are steels and some busts.
Its all variance driven. You cannot win the lottery without buying the tickets.
Except of some sure things most of the players are an educated guess, Hardaway included.


This shows a deep misunderstanding of the concept of a "lottery ticket" in resource management terms.

In professional sports, if you FAIL the resource management part of the game, you fail before the ball gets on the court.

Kent Bazemore is a good cross example. As a young player, he did not get minutes with the Warriors. Hawks got him for 2 years / 4 million , he played very well. His lack of minutes was because of talent load at GSW, not a reflection of his abilities. This is a LOTTERY TICKET. His next contract was an albatross. Long contract, high AAV. This is an INVESTMENT.

The Knicks made an INVESTMENT in THJr. Based on 1/2 of a decent season with the Hawks. They also made an investment when they drafted him. And he failed them. Much of it was his undisciplined play. The Knicks invested in a player a SECOND TIME when he failed them the first time.

The contract is indefensible. THJr was sitting all that offseason. No one else was going to give him that kind of AAV/length.

A good investment is only doing so when there is actual evidence that you can get a solid return back. THJr in his first run with the Knicks, often played like a total ****head. It wasn't just rookie pains/blues, he was just sort of a selfish ****head.

This kind of scenario is presented in pro sports front office type interviews all the time. I've spent some time in plenty of front offices and in draft war rooms, if some guy trying to come up gave the answer you gave, they would kick him out of the ****ing building. The term is called "Pack Your Trash" You get a big 55 gallon trash bag/contractor bag, and you have to put all your **** in it and security walks you out. Some teams even have "code phrases" to alert each other on a guy who needs to get kicked the **** out right now.

Steve Mills could no longer hide behind someone else. Many front office guys on the edge, they need to say to their owner, I did something, this year, something I can use to justify keeping my job. Phil Jackson FUCKED the Knicks for four years for Rose/Noah/Lee/Thomas so he could try to justify staying a little longer. Mills FUCKED the Knicks on THJr so he could go to a meeting with Dolan and say, well I did this to make the team better.

I make it a point on this forum, when I post, when I disagree with people ( which is often) to acknowledge their right to their own views. Some people don't act that way, but some people are basically a bunch of worthless ****suckers. If you feel THJrs contract is a lottery ticket, then that's your view. No one can take that from you. But if you walked into a real NBA front office, a competent one, and said the same thing, they'd hand you a trash bag.

Personally, I'd get a couple of interns to take your stuff from your cubicle, then get 200 rolls of duct tape, and put all your stuff in the center, and empty all the roll into a giant duct tape ball. And if you want your house keys, you'll have to find your way to the center. You'll have to roll it out of the building. So big you couldn't put it in a car. Then on the outside, I'd have someone spray paint on the outside, "The best part of prison was showering with other men. I miss you so much, Tyrone"

When you and Tyrone cuddled, were you the spoon? Or the spooner?

Triple, you spend times in front offices and war rooms?

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Marv
Posts: 34231
Alba Posts: 69
Joined: 9/2/2002
Member: #315
10/11/2018  3:01 PM
wow arkrud. you’re my favorite poster on this board. u get **** on so hard. and you always come up philosophical and humorous. maybe you’re the real zen master around here.
“This board has become a repository for mentally unstable attention seekers. Or gimmick posters.” - sebstar
franco12
Posts: 30215
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
10/11/2018  3:12 PM
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

meloshouldgo
Posts: 25383
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/11/2018  3:38 PM
Nalod wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

Stating the obvious. There are a few posters who keep pushing he was a good signing but the guy is awful. That contract may very well cost us our ability to contend. Without that contract we could get ourselves to 60 million in cap space and a real shot at 2 max players. Knowing Porzingis would need to be maxed out made the contract even more ridiculous. Not only that but what team president makes huge long-term cap commitments before he signs a GM? I mean WTF. It's the reason I am still skeptical about this front office.

Judging by the responses you've read so far, am I?

Like you, this makes me highly suspicious of this front office. Even the handling of the Hezonja contract makes me suspect about their decision-making ability. After all, why only give him a one year deal? If he breaks out (which I think is a possibility), we basically just subsidized his development for another team, which offers us no on-court value or trade assets . We've had a pattern of doing this like with guys like Jeremy Lin, Langston Galloway, Chris Copeland and other talent we've developed that could've fetched at least a good second pick if we had control on them like the Sixers had with Robert Covington and TJ McConnell. Some might think that getting those second rounders would be a meaningless exercise but maybe having a cache of them saves us from having to include a first round pick, for the privilege of acquiring a Andrea Bargnani or gutting our own draft assets for Marcus Camby or Raymond Felton.

That aside, I'm at least encouraged by the general direction of the franchise. We needed to accept a rebuild and finally look to generate value by growing from within. But if a Darryl Morey becomes available, which has been rumored....we need to have a fire-sale of our front office. Guys like him understand the machinations involved in building a winner and how to utilize leverage. Just look at how easily he got Chris Paul without giving up any of his core pieces. If that were us, we would've been looking like the Billy King Nets for the next 5 seasons.

Hezonja took less to player here. If he breaks out we value him accordingly. If Knox breaks out we value Mario accordingly and let him walk regardless.
Lin, Gallo, and Copeland have not lived up to early hype. We were good to not lock them up.
Most second round picks don't work out.
The Sixers up until last year were a laughing stock and now they are the benchmark? I liked what they were doing as they had a plan. It was fragmented but it worked out over a couple of years.
Knicks need a plan and stick to it. Our record speaks for itself. Sometimes good decisions don't work out.
Remember they laughed at Morey also. He ate **** until he got the cap space. But Drafting Capella was a huge piece.
There was a plan.
Think about Morey, was he always Morey or only until he was winning? Knicks have to stop chasing past winner and develop their own. Hiring Morey does nothing but start a new process. We have been doing that for decades. These guys don't want to come here unless there is an abundance of assets to work with. Phil was silly to even try to build a short term with Noah-Rose-Melo given their health issues. Morey here Instead of Phil don't get you last years Rocket team. This is what fans think. Its the starphuch.
Maybe Mills/perry is the next new thing. ONe year in and we basing our confidence on Hardaway and Mario? Based on that we want to starphuch another GM?
Guess what, Morey made mistakes too. Hinkie at Philly was run out of town and laughed at. Indy traded PG13 and was laughed at. Riley is god who has a list of idiot signings to his resume. Mills has Hardaway after one year and Perry can't win. If Mario is good he loses, if he is a bust he wasted minutes and salary. Mario won't be larry bird in one year. Don't worry. If he is, we have his Bird rights. Mario reportedly took less to be here on a short deal.

He wasn't talking about locking them up, he was talking about being something in return like second round picks when the hype was good.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
BigDaddyG
Posts: 26011
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

10/11/2018  3:42 PM
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?

We screwed up with that signing. I'm not saying Tim sucks, but we overpaid big time and our cap situation is suffering. You don't go out and overpay for a solid starting she/ quality sixth-man when you have a roster in flux like ours. Rodney hood, who is at about the same level as Tim, got considerably less. I'm rooting for Tim, but the signing was misguided and poorly negotiated. I would have preferred if we had taken the Sean Marks approach and used our cap space to collect draft picks and other assets.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
meloshouldgo
Posts: 25383
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/11/2018  3:45 PM
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
BigDaddyG
Posts: 26011
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

10/11/2018  3:52 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
franco12
Posts: 30215
Alba Posts: 4
Joined: 2/19/2004
Member: #599
USA
10/11/2018  4:14 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

BigDaddyG
Posts: 26011
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

10/11/2018  6:20 PM
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

THJ is 26, so not too big a difference. And if I had to guess, I'd still prefer Butler at 30 over THJ at 28.I agree that we need to jettison Hardaway and Lee. But if a trade could be worked out, I'd definitely have to consider it. The injuries are a concern and I'd hope Perry would look at this closely.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
meloshouldgo
Posts: 25383
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/11/2018  7:18 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

THJ is 26, so not too big a difference. And if I had to guess, I'd still prefer Butler at 30 over THJ at 28.I agree that we need to jettison Hardaway and Lee. But if a trade could be worked out, I'd definitely have to consider it. The injuries are a concern and I'd hope Perry would look at this closely.

Agreed - that is what I would send to Minny for Butler. THJR and Lee, can't be worse than some of the other stuff being mentioned. I do kind of agree his age doesn't fit our timeframe, but THJR doesn'tfit our anything. He is a below average scrub on a average contract.There's no value in that.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Sorta OT:

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.com All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.