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CrushAlot
Posts: 57066
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10/11/2018  10:33 PM
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
AUTOADVERT
meloshouldgo
Posts: 25386
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Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/11/2018  10:38 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
Posts: 57066
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10/11/2018  11:16 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
fwk00
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10/11/2018  11:49 PM
Phil Jackson was right.
meloshouldgo
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10/12/2018  6:57 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

I said early on his age and timeline doesn't fit what we are doing. I just don't see the need to go out of my way to characterize him negatively for trying to win and holding his teammates accountable to the same work ethic he brings everyday. Those are the types of things people should go overboard with. Fucking all-star coddling by the team owners and management has become a malignant disease that's destroying the competitiveness and all good things about the league.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
knicks1248
Posts: 37640
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Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
10/12/2018  9:09 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

ES
StarksEwing1
Posts: 30535
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Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

10/12/2018  9:32 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

Not really. His overall ****ty attitude is too much of a red flag. The Knicks are FINALLY doing the right thing. Building with youth through the draft
knicks1248
Posts: 37640
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
10/12/2018  9:48 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

Not really. His overall ****ty attitude is too much of a red flag. The Knicks are FINALLY doing the right thing. Building with youth through the draft

****ty attiude?? I guess he should accept losing gracefully with a smile...wow

Kat and wigging have losing habits. Lose by 20, 2 hrs later they're in a club popping bottles...

Hard work and relentless defense defined the 90's knicks, we were never the most talented, we just out worked everybody, and thats the kind of player butler is, thats how mason and oak were, sprewell, ewing..You forgot about those days son.

That's what Fiz is trying to develop here, why you think he brought in Ewing and Walt to talk to our troops, something no coach has done ever

ES
StarksEwing1
Posts: 30535
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Joined: 12/28/2012
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10/12/2018  9:59 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

Not really. His overall ****ty attitude is too much of a red flag. The Knicks are FINALLY doing the right thing. Building with youth through the draft

****ty attiude?? I guess he should accept losing gracefully with a smile...wow

Kat and wigging have losing habits. Lose by 20, 2 hrs later they're in a club popping bottles...

Hard work and relentless defense defined the 90's knicks, we were never the most talented, we just out worked everybody, and thats the kind of player butler is, thats how mason and oak were, sprewell, ewing..You forgot about those days son.

That's what Fiz is trying to develop here, why you think he brought in Ewing and Walt to talk to our troops, something no coach has done ever

Once again you try to spin what someone says to fit your warped logic. I NEVER said he "accepts" losing. I said he seems to have issues with teamates in both places so far. We dont need that headache. And we damn well arent trading any youth or picks for him as much as you want that
knicks1248
Posts: 37640
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #582
10/12/2018  10:26 AM
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

Not really. His overall ****ty attitude is too much of a red flag. The Knicks are FINALLY doing the right thing. Building with youth through the draft

****ty attiude?? I guess he should accept losing gracefully with a smile...wow

Kat and wigging have losing habits. Lose by 20, 2 hrs later they're in a club popping bottles...

Hard work and relentless defense defined the 90's knicks, we were never the most talented, we just out worked everybody, and thats the kind of player butler is, thats how mason and oak were, sprewell, ewing..You forgot about those days son.

That's what Fiz is trying to develop here, why you think he brought in Ewing and Walt to talk to our troops, something no coach has done ever

Once again you try to spin what someone says to fit your warped logic. I NEVER said he "accepts" losing. I said he seems to have issues with teamates in both places so far. We dont need that headache. And we damn well arent trading any youth or picks for him as much as you want that

I'm not big on butler because of injuries, and I also know you need a mix of veterans and youth to win in any sport. If I could off load Noah and lee's contracts with a with a 2021 draft pick, hell yeah i would do that.

Why would i be worried about a 2021 (which would be kp's 7th yr in the NBA) first rounder(who's timeline will he on) when I would now have cap space for 2 tier 1 FA next yr and a slew of lottery picks already on the roster.

ES
StarksEwing1
Posts: 30535
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/28/2012
Member: #4451

10/12/2018  10:34 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
StarksEwing1 wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

Not really. His overall ****ty attitude is too much of a red flag. The Knicks are FINALLY doing the right thing. Building with youth through the draft

****ty attiude?? I guess he should accept losing gracefully with a smile...wow

Kat and wigging have losing habits. Lose by 20, 2 hrs later they're in a club popping bottles...

Hard work and relentless defense defined the 90's knicks, we were never the most talented, we just out worked everybody, and thats the kind of player butler is, thats how mason and oak were, sprewell, ewing..You forgot about those days son.

That's what Fiz is trying to develop here, why you think he brought in Ewing and Walt to talk to our troops, something no coach has done ever

Once again you try to spin what someone says to fit your warped logic. I NEVER said he "accepts" losing. I said he seems to have issues with teamates in both places so far. We dont need that headache. And we damn well arent trading any youth or picks for him as much as you want that

I'm not big on butler because of injuries, and I also know you need a mix of veterans and youth to win in any sport. If I could off load Noah and lee's contracts with a with a 2021 draft pick, hell yeah i would do that.

Why would i be worried about a 2021 (which would be kp's 7th yr in the NBA) first rounder(who's timeline will he on) when I would now have cap space for 2 tier 1 FA next yr and a slew of lottery picks already on the roster.

They arent trading picks. Perry and Mills made that clear. The knicks are doing things smartly. Building from within then see whats out there in free agency during the summer
Nalod
Posts: 56032
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
10/12/2018  11:29 AM
I think most would be ok with Timmy and Lee for Butler.
Riles called out Thibs for backing out on trade. That could be the owner who instructed Thibs to get more.
We can't argue Timmy and Lee as if its on the table. Minny might want a pick. Ok, but its protected for years. They might want us to take a bad contract back.
On the back of all this is does Fiz want Butler around his yoot? Jimmy is emotional and if he blows up its fragile. Best to let the coach work the yoots and while Vet leadership has a good place do you really want any player having that much play in molding them?
I think KP is the leader of this team and he is 22 and its not about now, but where we are going.
Im thinking about two seasons from now. Jimmy going to nurture for that long? He demonstrated impatience in Chicago and again in Minny.

I like him, but not for this team. Miami was a good fit. They would do well with him at that price.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
CrushAlot
Posts: 57066
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
10/12/2018  4:27 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.

Rondo on Wade and Butler:
"My vets would never go to the media. They would come to the team. My vets didn't pick and choose when they wanted to bring it. They brought it every time they stepped in the gym whether it was practice or a game. They didn't take days off. My vets didn't care about their numbers. My vets played for the team. When we lost, they wouldn't blame us. They took responsibility and got in the gym. They showed the young guys what it meant to work. Even in Boston when we had the best record in the league, if we lost a game, you could hear a pin drop on the bus. They showed us the seriousness of the game. My vets didn't have an influence on the coaching staff. They couldn't change the plan because it didn't work for them. I played under one of the greatest coaches, and he held everyone accountable. It takes 1-15 to win. When you isolate everyone, you can't win consistently. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a bad teammate. My goal is to pass what I learned along. The young guys work. They show up. They don't deserve blame. If anything is questionable, it's the leadership."
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
BigDaddyG
Posts: 26012
Alba Posts: 3
Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

10/12/2018  5:03 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.

Rondo on Wade and Butler:
"My vets would never go to the media. They would come to the team. My vets didn't pick and choose when they wanted to bring it. They brought it every time they stepped in the gym whether it was practice or a game. They didn't take days off. My vets didn't care about their numbers. My vets played for the team. When we lost, they wouldn't blame us. They took responsibility and got in the gym. They showed the young guys what it meant to work. Even in Boston when we had the best record in the league, if we lost a game, you could hear a pin drop on the bus. They showed us the seriousness of the game. My vets didn't have an influence on the coaching staff. They couldn't change the plan because it didn't work for them. I played under one of the greatest coaches, and he held everyone accountable. It takes 1-15 to win. When you isolate everyone, you can't win consistently. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a bad teammate. My goal is to pass what I learned along. The young guys work. They show up. They don't deserve blame. If anything is questionable, it's the leadership."

Eh, it is coming from Rondo, so you have to take it with a grain of salt.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
meloshouldgo
Posts: 25386
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/3/2014
Member: #5801

10/12/2018  5:15 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.


He has gone overboard. In Chicago Rondo addressed it. I don't think if your franchise is doing a true rebuild you bring Butler in. Too many red flags for a rebuilding team with a different time line from his to make that deal and sign him long term.

That is actually the type of player you want around your young players.

It's not like Butler was asked to be there, and the bulls(the team that traded him out of nowhere) lost by 30 or more points eight times last season. Kat and wiggings defended like melo and Amare..You saw them in the PO dude, it was embarrassing.

You build a winning culture by having players who absolutely hate losing

This is probably your best post. Ever.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
meloshouldgo
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10/12/2018  5:24 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.

Rondo on Wade and Butler:
"My vets would never go to the media. They would come to the team. My vets didn't pick and choose when they wanted to bring it. They brought it every time they stepped in the gym whether it was practice or a game. They didn't take days off. My vets didn't care about their numbers. My vets played for the team. When we lost, they wouldn't blame us. They took responsibility and got in the gym. They showed the young guys what it meant to work. Even in Boston when we had the best record in the league, if we lost a game, you could hear a pin drop on the bus. They showed us the seriousness of the game. My vets didn't have an influence on the coaching staff. They couldn't change the plan because it didn't work for them. I played under one of the greatest coaches, and he held everyone accountable. It takes 1-15 to win. When you isolate everyone, you can't win consistently. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a bad teammate. My goal is to pass what I learned along. The young guys work. They show up. They don't deserve blame. If anything is questionable, it's the leadership."

Link? What was Rondo? Young guy or part of the leadership. Did the bulls have one of the best coaches ever? If not was he comparing similar situations? I like Rondo. I honestly think he and Butler are in the same mold. Not sure if he was talking about Butler or actual leadership which would be coach and management?

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
CrushAlot
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10/12/2018  6:13 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:
franco12 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:I've been following the Jimmy Butler trade rumors and it seems that any Miami package would largely be headlined by Jason Richardson. In fact, the general consensus amongst the media (e.g. Danny LaRoux) is that the Wolves would be "lucky" to ONLY get Jason Richardson (due to contract implications, youth, skillset, etc); and mind you- Butler is someone that is arguably one of the top 10 players in the league.

Over the next 3 seasons, Jason Richardson (25 years old) will make about $29.5 million with the opportunity to recoup bonus money if certain thresholds are met. Over that same span of time Tim Hardaway Jr (26 years old) will make $54 million and I'm not even sure if the guy is a sure-fire rotation player in the NBA. In fact, I'm not sure there is a swingman on the Heat alone (Dion Waiters, Wayne Ellington, Tyler Johnson, Rodney McGruder, Justise Winslow and Dwayne Wade)that I can confidently say he's better than. He's looked like dog**** this preseason and I'm wondering at what point is it acceptable to acknowledge that signing him was a huge mistake? In my opinion, this is starting to drift into the Andrea Bargnani territory when you consider the opportunity cost of his $18 million/yr contract the past two seasons in a market where teams have been desperate to unload salary. Just for context:

The Raptors gave up a first round pick to unload DeMarre Carroll's $14 million/yr contract and he had a 4.1 win-shares rating to Tim Hardaway Jr.'s 2.6 win-shares. And there still is a chance that DeMarre Carroll himself could net another first rounder at the trade deadline this season.

The Nuggets gave up a first round pick to unload Kenneth Faried's ($12 million) and Darrell Arthur's ($7 million) expirers.

The Clippers gave up a first round pick to unload Jamal Crawford's ($14 million) expirer.

You guys honestly prefer Hardaway Jr. to these alternatives? What teams can you honestly say he'd get consistent playing time with off the bench?


I thought you were heading to we should trade Hardaway for Butler - which is what I might do if I were Minny. I personally want no part of Butler.

Butler is much better player than Hardaway and better value. He is also Rondo like in his obsession with winning. He will call people out for being lazy ass bums.

Yeah, I don't get why so many people are crapping on Butler so much. He is probably a top 20 player and arguably the best shooting guard in the game, depending on where you list James Harden. The injuries are legit concerns, but I would rather overpay for Butler than THJ.

Butler is 28. He's played 15000 minutes.

How many more peak years does he have?

And at this point, his next contract isn't for what he will do, it's for what he has already done.

If we didn't have Noah and Lee and Hardway - I'd be ok adding Butler. And yes, he is better- but he is older and paid so much! We're not ready to compete - adding Butler doesn't put us into contention. Straight up add him to our roster - what do we get 37 wins instead of 28?

Why? For us, not thank you.

And I think he is over rated.

Butler also has a reputation for being extremely hard on young players. He did it as a bull and it has come up again with Minny. He is a great player but would be best suited going to a veteran team.

Calling people out cir laziness or sloppy play, isn't being hard. It's being honest. If he goes overboard the coaching staff needs to address it.

Rondo on Wade and Butler:
"My vets would never go to the media. They would come to the team. My vets didn't pick and choose when they wanted to bring it. They brought it every time they stepped in the gym whether it was practice or a game. They didn't take days off. My vets didn't care about their numbers. My vets played for the team. When we lost, they wouldn't blame us. They took responsibility and got in the gym. They showed the young guys what it meant to work. Even in Boston when we had the best record in the league, if we lost a game, you could hear a pin drop on the bus. They showed us the seriousness of the game. My vets didn't have an influence on the coaching staff. They couldn't change the plan because it didn't work for them. I played under one of the greatest coaches, and he held everyone accountable. It takes 1-15 to win. When you isolate everyone, you can't win consistently. I may be a lot of things, but I'm not a bad teammate. My goal is to pass what I learned along. The young guys work. They show up. They don't deserve blame. If anything is questionable, it's the leadership."

Link? What was Rondo? Young guy or part of the leadership. Did the bulls have one of the best coaches ever? If not was he comparing similar situations? I like Rondo. I honestly think he and Butler are in the same mold. Not sure if he was talking about Butler or actual leadership which would be coach and management?

Rondo was on the Bulls with Butler and Wade. I forgot to post the link but if you follow the NBA you know when Wade was on the Bulls.
JVG was on Lowe's podcast today and came down pretty hard on Butler and said onlyJordan and Kobe could lead this way. Also mentioned that there was no way Thibs would have wanted this to happen in his practice. He said no coach would want this. Also noted Butler had an interview with Nichols right after he did this.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
CrushAlot
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10/12/2018  6:15 PM
Link for the guy that says I just post links.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-bulls/rajon-rondo-unleashes-harsh-criticism-dwyane-wade-jimmy-butler-instagram-post%3famp
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
meloshouldgo
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10/12/2018  6:48 PM
CrushAlot wrote:Link for the guy that says I just post links.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/chicago/chicago-bulls/rajon-rondo-unleashes-harsh-criticism-dwyane-wade-jimmy-butler-instagram-post%3famp

Which made it doubly confusing why it didn't have one.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
meloshouldgo
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10/12/2018  6:56 PM
Based on what he said it seems to fit Wade far more than it fits Butler. Butler doesn't choose to take plays off. I don't think Butler is a good leader. But I think it's Thib's job to control the situation before it comes ot in the public. It's one thing to not want it, another thing to actively mitigate it and diffuse the situation. I see this type of stuff at work everyday. Regular hard working content people get pissed off each other. Cover heads need to step in and manage it. Anyway wr are aligned that he is not a good fit
I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Sorta OT:

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