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Frank haters can suck it
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TheGame
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10/11/2018  8:51 PM
Allanfan20 wrote:
TheGame wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TheGame wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
TheGame wrote:They need to free Frank. I get that last year he was not ready and Jeff was trying to save his job. But this year. There is no reason anyone other that Frank should be starting at pg. Mudiay is garbage. The guy is not good enough defensively or offensively to be a starter. Burke is solid but he gets shot-happy and he is going to get abused on defense. Not saying he does not play hard but there is only so much you can do at his height on defense. Frank is clearly the best defender of the three, and he can run the pick and roll. The Knicks need to just give this guy a full season as the man to see what he can really do as a starter. Frank was not ready last year but I think he will be surprisely good as a starter this year if they allow him to run the point. His preseason numbers translate to about 13 pts per game with solid percentages. As a starter, Frank likely would average 14-16 pts, 7-8 ast, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block. That is solid production.

very solid

But all 3 have major flaws and your just going to have to use these guys as you see fit...

If Frank averaged 13-14 pts 7-8 ast 5 rebs 2stls 1 blk per game as a 20 yr old 2nd yr player. It would mean he was budding star

But he won't average that.

Oh really. He won't average that you say. In four games in preseason if you turned his 17 minutss a game into 34 minutes, he would be averaging 13 pts, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block a game on 44% shooting for the field and 50% shooting from three. That was with him playing pg only a small fraction of the time on the court. If he is the full-time pg, the assists would go up into the 7-8 range. The kid is nearly there now, the Knicks just need to unleash him.

5rebs, 7-8ast, 2stls, 1blk is All NBA level numbers. He isn't ready yet for that level of production. He will have nights where he has those #s and he will have nights where he has minimal box stats. He will then average out to I would say 9-10pts 4rebs 4ast 1-2stls like 0.7blks or something of that nature on 44-46% fg 35-37% from 3.

Frank averaged 3 assists a game last year playing backup point guard but somehow he could not average 7-8 assists as a starter with one year of experience under his belt. Hopefully the Knicks wise up, give this kid 34 minutes at the point, and let him do his thing. Cut Mudiay.

It’s fair to say that he holds himself back. He definitely does immediately look for someone to pass too as soon as he can at times when there are scoring opportunities if he played aggresive. IMO, it’s a matter of him developing confidence. If he develops it, he could have really good production this season. If not, he can end up having a 5-3-1-1, 35% from the field season. Up to him. Hopefully it’s the former or at the least, somewhere in between.

That is what I am saying. The Knicks need to let this kid know that they believe in him, and tell him to go make it happen, so he can develop some confidence. The kid will grow in confidence if they tell him he is the pg. guys like Fox and Smith don't have scrubs like Mudiay taking minutes from them. The Knicks need to give this kid a real chance and start him and give him 33-35 minutes and tell him this is his team to guide. If by the end of the year he looks terrible, then at least you know what you got, but I don't think they are really giving him a fair chance to develop as the team's pg. we will see how it all plays out this year.

Playoffs or bust
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meloshouldgo
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10/11/2018  9:29 PM
TheGame wrote:
Allanfan20 wrote:
TheGame wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
TheGame wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
TheGame wrote:They need to free Frank. I get that last year he was not ready and Jeff was trying to save his job. But this year. There is no reason anyone other that Frank should be starting at pg. Mudiay is garbage. The guy is not good enough defensively or offensively to be a starter. Burke is solid but he gets shot-happy and he is going to get abused on defense. Not saying he does not play hard but there is only so much you can do at his height on defense. Frank is clearly the best defender of the three, and he can run the pick and roll. The Knicks need to just give this guy a full season as the man to see what he can really do as a starter. Frank was not ready last year but I think he will be surprisely good as a starter this year if they allow him to run the point. His preseason numbers translate to about 13 pts per game with solid percentages. As a starter, Frank likely would average 14-16 pts, 7-8 ast, 5 rebounds, 2 steals, and 1 block. That is solid production.

very solid

But all 3 have major flaws and your just going to have to use these guys as you see fit...

If Frank averaged 13-14 pts 7-8 ast 5 rebs 2stls 1 blk per game as a 20 yr old 2nd yr player. It would mean he was budding star

But he won't average that.

Oh really. He won't average that you say. In four games in preseason if you turned his 17 minutss a game into 34 minutes, he would be averaging 13 pts, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 2 steals, and 1 block a game on 44% shooting for the field and 50% shooting from three. That was with him playing pg only a small fraction of the time on the court. If he is the full-time pg, the assists would go up into the 7-8 range. The kid is nearly there now, the Knicks just need to unleash him.

5rebs, 7-8ast, 2stls, 1blk is All NBA level numbers. He isn't ready yet for that level of production. He will have nights where he has those #s and he will have nights where he has minimal box stats. He will then average out to I would say 9-10pts 4rebs 4ast 1-2stls like 0.7blks or something of that nature on 44-46% fg 35-37% from 3.

Frank averaged 3 assists a game last year playing backup point guard but somehow he could not average 7-8 assists as a starter with one year of experience under his belt. Hopefully the Knicks wise up, give this kid 34 minutes at the point, and let him do his thing. Cut Mudiay.

It’s fair to say that he holds himself back. He definitely does immediately look for someone to pass too as soon as he can at times when there are scoring opportunities if he played aggresive. IMO, it’s a matter of him developing confidence. If he develops it, he could have really good production this season. If not, he can end up having a 5-3-1-1, 35% from the field season. Up to him. Hopefully it’s the former or at the least, somewhere in between.

That is what I am saying. The Knicks need to let this kid know that they believe in him, and tell him to go make it happen, so he can develop some confidence. The kid will grow in confidence if they tell him he is the pg. guys like Fox and Smith don't have scrubs like Mudiay taking minutes from them. The Knicks need to give this kid a real chance and start him and give him 33-35 minutes and tell him this is his team to guide. If by the end of the year he looks terrible, then at least you know what you got, but I don't think they are really giving him a fair chance to develop as the team's pg. we will see how it all plays out this year.

I agree. This is why this Front Office is weird to me. They talk about developing young players and then get complete garbage like Mudiay to come in and take minutes away from the people they are supposed to be developing. Dotson had promised too but couldn't ever get on court because of the logjam created by Mills and Perry. And to make it worse we have THJR, who isn't part of any future team but eats up starter minutes.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
newyorknewyork
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10/12/2018  10:39 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box

Interesting that you feel Fizz is thinking outside the box when you routinely try to keep Frank in a box. Frank is going to play all over the court in a position less basketball setting. That is the luxury of drafting a 6'5, 7ft wingspan 19 yr old with guard skills and solid IQ.

I like the notion of him developing as much guard skills as possible as that will only enhance him has a player where ever he lines up. Your vision seems to be don't really develop him into a complete basketball player and just try to hid him.

There will be times when Frank should play PG to stop the PNR. There will be times when Frank will play Forward to provide multiple ball handlers and shooters. These are visions not necessarily this specific season but for seasons to come. The more complete a player he becomes, the more effective he will be regardless of where he lines up on the floor.

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10/12/2018  10:50 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box

Interesting that you feel Fizz is thinking outside the box when you routinely try to keep Frank in a box. Frank is going to play all over the court in a position less basketball setting. That is the luxury of drafting a 6'5, 7ft wingspan 19 yr old with guard skills and solid IQ.

I like the notion of him developing as much guard skills as possible as that will only enhance him has a player where ever he lines up. Your vision seems to be don't really develop him into a complete basketball player and just try to hid him.

There will be times when Frank should play PG to stop the PNR. There will be times when Frank will play Forward to provide multiple ball handlers and shooters. These are visions not necessarily this specific season but for seasons to come. The more complete a player he becomes, the more effective he will be regardless of where he lines up on the floor.

Exactly. Having a kid who can play multiple positions,guard multiple positions, is extremely valuable to have going forward. Thats why i laugh when a certain person claims that Frank is only worth a 2nd round puck when all these teams contact the knicks about frank.
Nalod
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10/12/2018  11:45 AM
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
newyorknewyork
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10/12/2018  1:15 PM
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

Nalod
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10/12/2018  3:29 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
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10/12/2018  4:12 PM
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.
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10/12/2018  4:33 PM
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

So what are you saying? Frank is not our best PG? More of a back up multi position player. And In a draft where it was said there were numourous high level PG's, Phil picked a guy that was not suited to be a typical NBA PG but nore of a Triangle guy?

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
Nalod
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10/12/2018  4:42 PM
Phils 11 championship teams did not often employ prototypical PG's as ball handlers. ANd, they did not often draft 8th. Kukoc was 19 and was a role player. Otherwise they did not draft very young either.
So phil was thinking long view. Phil never was the boss a minute of Franks on the court so we don't know what he and Gaines were thinking other than long view.
The Little guys could shoot, not break down the defense with the ball. Frank didn't play with 2-3 HOF's or all stars much.
Little to compare. Its what what frank is but what Phil envisioned he could become. Until Phil says we really don't know beyond what was said at the draft.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
HofstraBBall
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10/12/2018  4:54 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.

Find it funny that after years of guys defending Phil and the Triangle, its now a bad thing to connect players to both. Why is it so strange to some that the players picked by Phil were because he thought they were best suited for his syatem? Agree that Frank was picked as a Triangle PG. Pretty logical to think the Triangle master wouls pick guys to fit the Triangle.

Some Think its bagging on Frank because I say Phil passed on other PG's that were better suited for most NBA systems and went with the type of PG better suited for the Triangle. Problem I had was that I knew Phil and his triangle would be ahort lived. Now that Phil is gone, along with his system, we are seeing that Frank is having trouble fitting the role of PG on a non Triangle system. Now do I think he can eventually do so, I dont know. Only thing anyone knows is that he is a very good defender and very young. So now we all just have to move on and see what he turns out to be. Hopefully he turns into someone who can help us get to the next level.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
BigDaddyG
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10/12/2018  5:00 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

So what are you saying? Frank is not our best PG? More of a back up multi position player. And In a draft where it was said there were numourous high level PG's, Phil picked a guy that was not suited to be a typical NBA PG but nore of a Triangle guy?


Numerous high level PGs? There was really only one guy prognosticators made a case for at PG, and that was DSJ. I'm not really a fan of his game, but I guess that could change over time. Mitchell? No one had him rated that high and no one considered a PG. I still don't really consider him a PG.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
HofstraBBall
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10/12/2018  5:24 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/12/2018  5:58 PM
Nalod wrote:Phils 11 championship teams did not often employ prototypical PG's as ball handlers. ANd, they did not often draft 8th. Kukoc was 19 and was a role player. Otherwise they did not draft very young either.
So phil was thinking long view. Phil never was the boss a minute of Franks on the court so we don't know what he and Gaines were thinking other than long view.
The Little guys could shoot, not break down the defense with the ball. Frank didn't play with 2-3 HOF's or all stars much.
Little to compare. Its what what frank is but what Phil envisioned he could become. Until Phil says we really don't know beyond what was said at the draft.

Don't think Phil was the one that put those teams together back then. Besides, we all know they didn't need much except for their most important ingredient. And it was not anything mentioned above.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
HofstraBBall
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10/12/2018  5:55 PM    LAST EDITED: 10/12/2018  5:57 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

So what are you saying? Frank is not our best PG? More of a back up multi position player. And In a draft where it was said there were numourous high level PG's, Phil picked a guy that was not suited to be a typical NBA PG but nore of a Triangle guy?


Numerous high level PGs? There was really only one guy prognosticators made a case for at PG, and that was DSJ. I'm not really a fan of his game, but I guess that could change over time. Mitchell? No one had him rated that high and no one considered a PG. I still don't really consider him a PG.

Several experts had it as a talented PG heavy draft.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2016/9/22/16077298/2017-nba-draft-point-guards-markelle-fultz-dennis-smith-jr-ef66c2bf3653

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2683766-the-2017-nba-draft-class-is-absolutely-stacked-at-pg-position.amp.html

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
newyorknewyork
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10/12/2018  6:14 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.

Find it funny that after years of guys defending Phil and the Triangle, its now a bad thing to connect players to both. Why is it so strange to some that the players picked by Phil were because he thought they were best suited for his syatem? Agree that Frank was picked as a Triangle PG. Pretty logical to think the Triangle master wouls pick guys to fit the Triangle.

Some Think its bagging on Frank because I say Phil passed on other PG's that were better suited for most NBA systems and went with the type of PG better suited for the Triangle. Problem I had was that I knew Phil and his triangle would be ahort lived. Now that Phil is gone, along with his system, we are seeing that Frank is having trouble fitting the role of PG on a non Triangle system. Now do I think he can eventually do so, I dont know. Only thing anyone knows is that he is a very good defender and very young. So now we all just have to move on and see what he turns out to be. Hopefully he turns into someone who can help us get to the next level.

The point of (my) post was to eventually connect how the triangle and position less basketball are very similar. So even if Frank was viewed as a triangle friendly player by some on the board. Those principals still work within this position less era of basketball that the NBA has been heading into. IMO triangle PG is also the wrong term. Triangle player would be more accurate. Ron Harper was a 20 pt shooting guard for the first 8 years of his career. He was able to move to PG with the Bulls under the same ideals of position less basketball. Our current coach preaches positions less basketball so its very relevant.

Fans excited about the pick saw how he fit the NBA's movement towards position less ball and the different possibilities he could potentially bring.

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10/12/2018  6:19 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

So what are you saying? Frank is not our best PG? More of a back up multi position player. And In a draft where it was said there were numourous high level PG's, Phil picked a guy that was not suited to be a typical NBA PG but nore of a Triangle guy?


Numerous high level PGs? There was really only one guy prognosticators made a case for at PG, and that was DSJ. I'm not really a fan of his game, but I guess that could change over time. Mitchell? No one had him rated that high and no one considered a PG. I still don't really consider him a PG.

Several experts had it as a talented PG heavy draft.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2016/9/22/16077298/2017-nba-draft-point-guards-markelle-fultz-dennis-smith-jr-ef66c2bf3653

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2683766-the-2017-nba-draft-class-is-absolutely-stacked-at-pg-position.amp.html

That years point guard class had been talked about extensively starting a year prior to the draft.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
newyorknewyork
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10/12/2018  6:20 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

So what are you saying? Frank is not our best PG? More of a back up multi position player. And In a draft where it was said there were numourous high level PG's, Phil picked a guy that was not suited to be a typical NBA PG but nore of a Triangle guy?


Numerous high level PGs? There was really only one guy prognosticators made a case for at PG, and that was DSJ. I'm not really a fan of his game, but I guess that could change over time. Mitchell? No one had him rated that high and no one considered a PG. I still don't really consider him a PG.

He was a great triangle option. Go figure. In today's position less era. His close to 7ft wing space and his muscular build allowing him to guard on the switch makes him valuable alone. The triangle wouldn't have required a pure PG so he would have fit nicely given his size, length, athleticism, 3 point stroke if that's the route we were taking. He can also develop better PG ability down the road. Can't really teach a lot of the things he possessed. He was also the best defensive guard in the ACC. I liked him better as a prospect then Smith.

HofstraBBall
Posts: 22763
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

10/12/2018  6:27 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.

Find it funny that after years of guys defending Phil and the Triangle, its now a bad thing to connect players to both. Why is it so strange to some that the players picked by Phil were because he thought they were best suited for his syatem? Agree that Frank was picked as a Triangle PG. Pretty logical to think the Triangle master wouls pick guys to fit the Triangle.

Some Think its bagging on Frank because I say Phil passed on other PG's that were better suited for most NBA systems and went with the type of PG better suited for the Triangle. Problem I had was that I knew Phil and his triangle would be ahort lived. Now that Phil is gone, along with his system, we are seeing that Frank is having trouble fitting the role of PG on a non Triangle system. Now do I think he can eventually do so, I dont know. Only thing anyone knows is that he is a very good defender and very young. So now we all just have to move on and see what he turns out to be. Hopefully he turns into someone who can help us get to the next level.

The point of (my) post was to eventually connect how the triangle and position less basketball are very similar. So even if Frank was viewed as a triangle friendly player by some on the board. Those principals still work within this position less era of basketball that the NBA has been heading into. IMO triangle PG is also the wrong term. Triangle player would be more accurate. Ron Harper was a 20 pt shooting guard for the first 8 years of his career. He was able to move to PG with the Bulls under the same ideals of position less basketball. Our current coach preaches positions less basketball so its very relevant.

Fans excited about the pick saw how he fit the NBA's movement towards position less ball and the different possibilities he could potentially bring.

Would agree with most. Don't know if PG's in the NBA are position less though. The 2 to 5, definitely. But yeah, after the fact and now that Frank is a Knick, agree that he is multi positional. excellent defender, long and brings value. My point is that the Knicks desperately needed a true PG and it was a good year to pick one up. And because Phil chose the one that was better suited to be multi positional (For the Trinagle), we are still looking for one.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
BigDaddyG
Posts: 26012
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Joined: 1/22/2010
Member: #3049

10/12/2018  6:39 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

So what are you saying? Frank is not our best PG? More of a back up multi position player. And In a draft where it was said there were numourous high level PG's, Phil picked a guy that was not suited to be a typical NBA PG but nore of a Triangle guy?


Numerous high level PGs? There was really only one guy prognosticators made a case for at PG, and that was DSJ. I'm not really a fan of his game, but I guess that could change over time. Mitchell? No one had him rated that high and no one considered a PG. I still don't really consider him a PG.

Several experts had it as a talented PG heavy draft.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theringer.com/platform/amp/2016/9/22/16077298/2017-nba-draft-point-guards-markelle-fultz-dennis-smith-jr-ef66c2bf3653

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2683766-the-2017-nba-draft-class-is-absolutely-stacked-at-pg-position.amp.html

Yeah, but all those guys were slotted ahead of where we were picking. I was hoping Fox would fall, but he was snapped up before us.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
newyorknewyork
Posts: 28037
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 1/16/2004
Member: #541
10/12/2018  8:08 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
Nalod wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Nalod wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:Fiz is right in line with how I'm thinking, this kid is more suited for sf in this system.

ya'll keep thinking I don't like him, when it's more about me not liking him as a PG.

Ntilikina won’t be starting at point guard Friday as he did Monday against the Wizards — instead, Ron Baker will be the fourth different Knick to start there in five preseason games — but Fizdale wants to see Ntilikina guard the four, potentially another way to increase his minutes.

Though the coach said he wouldn’t put the 6-foot-6 Frenchman “on a big old beast four,” he figured the Nets — with perhaps DeMarre Carroll or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson at the position — might offer a good opportunity to begin trying it.

“Brooklyn is fast-paced, they usually play four perimeters and a big guy. Why not? Let’s see it,” Fizdale said. “The fours that play in our league now … how teams are playing, they’re playing perimeter guys at that spot. Frank, that’s why I said he gives me so many options for having a ball-handler that can do multiple things and guard multiple people. So that’s where I think the flexibility comes in.”

That's what I love about this coach, he is going to find the best possible way for you to capitalize on your strength.

I just think you prolong his development "in this system" if you force point guard responsibilities on him, too much thinking and not enough reacting. The kid just spent 4 yrs learning how to play the game a different way(and you know how you absorb info as a teenager)so he's 2 yrs in the hole compared to these AAu players who come in more NBA ready.....L him defend and be a glue guy and take the open shot. I think Point fwd is a good role for him (in this fast pace system).

That's all I'm saying, it's never been about me not liking him, at least Fiz is thinking outside the box



Can a box have three sides? I thought you had that triangle taint all over Frank?

Can a "Box" have shaped like a Triangle? You had him in a PG box and for weeks he been telling everyone all things are open. You put him in a Triangle box. Rainman like because your get fixated on things.
So now a player who passes and plays different is "outside the AAU" box? That's ok too, no diva like rants, preening after dunks, and yelling at his coaches. Works for me.

The triangle was never dependent on a "PG" other than basic guard functions. The Triangle requires all 5 players to be able to read and react to the defense simultaneously. Executing faster than the defense can recover. Even if you had an expert triangle player playing PG. It wouldn't matter if the other 4 players weren't able to read and react at the same speed. So most likely Phil was looking for multiple triangle type of players. Which would be pretty much be players that can read and react who had solid all around games. Who also provided size and length. These are players that can probably play on any team in any system. Since size, length, IQ and all around games would be welcome on any team.

This is all very accurate. It slaps in the face that Frank was drafted to be a PG. Phils Triangle teams did not have traditional PG's. Fiz says the same thing. Uh oh.....Fiz is thinking out side the box according to knicks1248.
"Ability to read and react to defense simultaneously". That AAU thing must teach them to NOT do this. Otherwise you don't get a shoe deal. Etc..........
Sounds like Frank was drafted to be a good basketball player.
Remember when knick fans liked good defensive players?

Frank was drafted as a point guard. Is anyone questioning that? History doesn't have to be revised here to make Frank a good or bad pick. The fact that the guy that drafted him wanted to implement a system where the point guard's role is different from what it is in the modern nba does come into play a bit. Now that there is a new regime in place that is allowing the coach to run his own system, Frank is being looked at as a player that can be a secondary ball handler that plays a little point guard. The Knicks had Frank playing the point almost exclusively for the first two thirds of the season last year and the mantra at the time was that he needed to get more minutes to grow and improve at the position. Nothing wrong with a young player being drafted for one position and ending up in another or being used for his versatility instead of fitting just one defined role.

Find it funny that after years of guys defending Phil and the Triangle, its now a bad thing to connect players to both. Why is it so strange to some that the players picked by Phil were because he thought they were best suited for his syatem? Agree that Frank was picked as a Triangle PG. Pretty logical to think the Triangle master wouls pick guys to fit the Triangle.

Some Think its bagging on Frank because I say Phil passed on other PG's that were better suited for most NBA systems and went with the type of PG better suited for the Triangle. Problem I had was that I knew Phil and his triangle would be ahort lived. Now that Phil is gone, along with his system, we are seeing that Frank is having trouble fitting the role of PG on a non Triangle system. Now do I think he can eventually do so, I dont know. Only thing anyone knows is that he is a very good defender and very young. So now we all just have to move on and see what he turns out to be. Hopefully he turns into someone who can help us get to the next level.

The point of (my) post was to eventually connect how the triangle and position less basketball are very similar. So even if Frank was viewed as a triangle friendly player by some on the board. Those principals still work within this position less era of basketball that the NBA has been heading into. IMO triangle PG is also the wrong term. Triangle player would be more accurate. Ron Harper was a 20 pt shooting guard for the first 8 years of his career. He was able to move to PG with the Bulls under the same ideals of position less basketball. Our current coach preaches positions less basketball so its very relevant.

Fans excited about the pick saw how he fit the NBA's movement towards position less ball and the different possibilities he could potentially bring.

Would agree with most. Don't know if PG's in the NBA are position less though. The 2 to 5, definitely. But yeah, after the fact and now that Frank is a Knick, agree that he is multi positional. excellent defender, long and brings value. My point is that the Knicks desperately needed a true PG and it was a good year to pick one up. And because Phil chose the one that was better suited to be multi positional (For the Trinagle), we are still looking for one.

That's fair. We also could have had SGA this past draft but passed up that opportunity for a unique forward piece. Dallas also went after Jalen Brunson in the 2nd round after trading up for point forward Doncic because I don't think they want DSJ restricted with pure PG duties 24/7 but want to free him up to be who he is.

https://hoopshype.com/2018/10/02/dallas-mavericks-dennis-smith-luka-doncic-scouting-report-analysis/

He shot just 39.5 percent from the field on 14.8 attempts per game, and he hit only 31.3 percent of his three-pointers on 4.9 attempts per game. The 20-year-old must significantly improve his shooting as he continues developing.

Jonathan Tjarks recently spoke about why Smith could be poised for a much better sophomore season now that he’s playing next to rookie Luka Doncic, who is an incredible passer (via The Ringer):

“I’ve got a fun stat for you guys. Dennis was way better on catch-and-shoot threes than versus off-the-dribble threes last year. The problem was that he had nobody to get him open threes because nobody on the Mavs can pass.”

Last season, Smith averaged 0.66 points per possession on jump shots off the dribble. He shot 78-of-280 (27.9 percent) on these attempts, among the worst in the league among those with as many opportunities.

Meanwhile, the point guard averaged 1.05 PPP on catch-and-shoot jump shots. His field goal percentage was much better, shooting 50-of-142 (35.2 percent) during his first season in the league. And, as originally noted by Bobby Karalla, Smith was 31-for-63 (49.2 percent) when he was unguarded. He shot almost the exact same field goal percentage on this play type in college, suggesting these numbers aren’t a fluke.

Frank haters can suck it

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