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OT: Jimmy Butler requests trade
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TripleThreat
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9/25/2018  2:47 AM
CrushAlot wrote:They weren't interested in building through the draft. Walsh was very frustrating to live through as a fan. Letting everyone know your goal is to shed salaries handicaps you in any trade negotiations. Sending out your lottery pick and a first round pick to dump Jeffries deal is not something a gm does that is building through the draft.


Having ****ty players on even ****tier contracts handicaps you in trade negotiations. That's it. Full stop. End of story.

Take any player you think has his trade value shot up because someone in the franchise said something in the press that you thought was wrong or shouldn't have been said.

That ****ty player is still a ****ty player because of age, injuries, skill limitations, lockerroom issues, work ethic problems, personal problems, substance abuse problems, etc, etc. That ****ty players ****ty contract is still ****ty even if the GM and the player are sending love notes through the press. Or not.

Lots of teams were dumping salary to try to make space to get LeBron James. LBJ and Rich Paul sent feelers out to make teams think they had a chance when they did not. It wasn't a huge secret. It was a secret to no one. The Knicks were not the only team to do it.

I've seen you say it lots of times before, that Executive or Coach said this or that and ****ed up Player X's trade value. No, because Player X is a ****ty player and has a super ****ty contract, that's what his trade value is shot. That's it. You want to take something simple and make it complicated.

Donnie Walsh was UNDER ORDERS to shed salary and shed it fast. UNDER ORDERS. What the **** is this narrative that Walsh was on his own gutting his team's asset base. Since so many other teams were trying to dump salary, it was a BUYERS MARKET. Thus the price to take on ****ty player and ****ty contracts went up.

You can only be as good a GM as much freedom as you get to operate and do your job. Old Man Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman's relationship is a classic NY example of this.

You seem to operate under the idea that you can conceal your intentions in the NBA marketplace. Small rosters. Short draft. Limited free agency. There are no secrets. Oh my God, the Knicks were really dumping salary to chase LBJ! No one could have figured that out until the very end when Dolan took his mask off! How could they kill off Drew Barrymore in the beginning of the movie! She was supposed to be the star! Vader is Luke's father! The limping guy is Keyser Soze!


If it's a ****ty player, your trade negotiations are shot, no matter what you say or don't say.

If it's a ****ty contract, your trade negotiations are shot, no matter what you say or don't say.

You don't need Jordan Peterson or Tim Ferris to decipher this for anyone. It is that simple.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
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CrushAlot
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9/25/2018  6:28 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:They weren't interested in building through the draft. Walsh was very frustrating to live through as a fan. Letting everyone know your goal is to shed salaries handicaps you in any trade negotiations. Sending out your lottery pick and a first round pick to dump Jeffries deal is not something a gm does that is building through the draft.


Having ****ty players on even ****tier contracts handicaps you in trade negotiations. That's it. Full stop. End of story.

Take any player you think has his trade value shot up because someone in the franchise said something in the press that you thought was wrong or shouldn't have been said.

That ****ty player is still a ****ty player because of age, injuries, skill limitations, lockerroom issues, work ethic problems, personal problems, substance abuse problems, etc, etc. That ****ty players ****ty contract is still ****ty even if the GM and the player are sending love notes through the press. Or not.

Lots of teams were dumping salary to try to make space to get LeBron James. LBJ and Rich Paul sent feelers out to make teams think they had a chance when they did not. It wasn't a huge secret. It was a secret to no one. The Knicks were not the only team to do it.

I've seen you say it lots of times before, that Executive or Coach said this or that and ****ed up Player X's trade value. No, because Player X is a ****ty player and has a super ****ty contract, that's what his trade value is shot. That's it. You want to take something simple and make it complicated.

Donnie Walsh was UNDER ORDERS to shed salary and shed it fast. UNDER ORDERS. What the **** is this narrative that Walsh was on his own gutting his team's asset base. Since so many other teams were trying to dump salary, it was a BUYERS MARKET. Thus the price to take on ****ty player and ****ty contracts went up.

You can only be as good a GM as much freedom as you get to operate and do your job. Old Man Steinbrenner and Brian Cashman's relationship is a classic NY example of this.

You seem to operate under the idea that you can conceal your intentions in the NBA marketplace. Small rosters. Short draft. Limited free agency. There are no secrets. Oh my God, the Knicks were really dumping salary to chase LBJ! No one could have figured that out until the very end when Dolan took his mask off! How could they kill off Drew Barrymore in the beginning of the movie! She was supposed to be the star! Vader is Luke's father! The limping guy is Keyser Soze!


If it's a ****ty player, your trade negotiations are shot, no matter what you say or don't say.

If it's a ****ty contract, your trade negotiations are shot, no matter what you say or don't say.

You don't need Jordan Peterson or Tim Ferris to decipher this for anyone. It is that simple.

Except during Walsh's tenure it wasn't a secret who the Knicks were going to draft either. His desires for players, cap space etc. was out there and I do think that puts a franchise in a compromised position. REmember Rod Thorn before the draft saying, 'We know the Knicks are taking Gallinari.'? Everyone also knew the Knicks wanted Curry and there appeared to be no back up plan for if he was off the board. Maybe it was Walsh's level of desperation to move salaries. I don't remember any salary dump from that time where a team came anywhere close to giving up what the Knicks did to move off of Jeffries deal. Everyone in the league knows that the Knicks would love to move Noah, Lee or Hardaway but they are not desperate enough to send out a package like Knox and a first to do it. I always thought that part of why Walsh was hired was because he was fond of Isiah and would handle that situation differently from the other candidates for the job at that time. That being said, I have to believe that Walsh presented a plan on how he was going to improve the Knicks and clearing cap space and getting free agents was a part of that plan.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
GustavBahler
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9/25/2018  10:41 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/25/2018  10:42 AM
Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp
BigDaddyG
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9/25/2018  11:49 AM
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp

I don't see it that way. The fact that Towns agreed to an extension shortly after this mess, along with rumors and tweets that have circulated, makes it clear the organization doesn't want Butler. Thibodeau still wants Butler, sure. But the ownership, as expected is ptting their chips on the younger more talented player. Why would Butler stay? The situation has turned toxic.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
GustavBahler
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9/25/2018  11:59 AM    LAST EDITED: 9/25/2018  12:00 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp

I don't see it that way. The fact that Towns agreed to an extension shortly after this mess, along with rumors and tweets that have circulated, makes it clear the organization doesn't want Butler. Thibodeau still wants Butler, sure. But the ownership, as expected is ptting their chips on the younger more talented player. Why would Butler stay? The situation has turned toxic.

I was under the impression that Butler wanted out first. We heard all summer about Butler not liking the effort from Towns/Wiggins. Sounds like Towns heard enough.

Chandler
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9/25/2018  1:24 PM
Butler is also at a strange age. You give him a super max or whatever and for the first couple years may hope to get a fair return but the last couple you're team is handicapped and even if he's playing well he's not playing well enough to gobble up that much cap space.

they should have thought about this last year. I would think this might be a stealth, somewhat-smart-move by owner/mgmt. except they also gave Wiggins big money and they'll regret that

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
TripleThreat
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9/25/2018  6:31 PM
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp


More complicated than that.

The argument that Thibs made to his owner is that if you bend the knee to Towns on the Butler issue, you've essentially made him the defcto GM, and he's an idiot.

Thibs and Butler both see you can't win this way.

Towns runs that team now. He won the battle, the power struggle, but lost the war. He's an idiot.

Right now Butler is getting gutted in the press because Towns is simply more marketable and has more long term name brand value to the league and the shoe brands.

Butler doesn't want to play on a team with a low effort ****head, no matter how talented, deciding how to build this team. Everyone wants to be LeGM, without understanding LBJ is a total ****ing idiot as the defacto GM of his team. Butler is no cakewalk, not even close, but I don't blame him here.

Sometimes, when the person in front of you is big enough *******, you decide life is just too damn short. Life is too damn short to let a mental midget like Towns run a team into the ground in front of you.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Welpee
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9/25/2018  7:49 PM
TripleThreat wrote:Right now Butler is getting gutted in the press because Towns is simply more marketable and has more long term name brand value to the league and the shoe brands.
...and light years more upside than Butler.
Marv
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9/25/2018  7:54 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp


More complicated than that.

The argument that Thibs made to his owner is that if you bend the knee to Towns on the Butler issue, you've essentially made him the defcto GM, and he's an idiot.

Thibs and Butler both see you can't win this way.

Towns runs that team now. He won the battle, the power struggle, but lost the war. He's an idiot.

Right now Butler is getting gutted in the press because Towns is simply more marketable and has more long term name brand value to the league and the shoe brands.

Butler doesn't want to play on a team with a low effort ****head, no matter how talented, deciding how to build this team. Everyone wants to be LeGM, without understanding LBJ is a total ****ing idiot as the defacto GM of his team. Butler is no cakewalk, not even close, but I don't blame him here.

Sometimes, when the person in front of you is big enough *******, you decide life is just too damn short. Life is too damn short to let a mental midget like Towns run a team into the ground in front of you.

what war did towns lose? he got his money, he got to be where he wants to be, he got rid of his arch enemy, he established his alpha status on his team. is his war to win?

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TripleThreat
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9/26/2018  6:45 AM
Marv wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp


More complicated than that.

The argument that Thibs made to his owner is that if you bend the knee to Towns on the Butler issue, you've essentially made him the defcto GM, and he's an idiot.

Thibs and Butler both see you can't win this way.

Towns runs that team now. He won the battle, the power struggle, but lost the war. He's an idiot.

Right now Butler is getting gutted in the press because Towns is simply more marketable and has more long term name brand value to the league and the shoe brands.

Butler doesn't want to play on a team with a low effort ****head, no matter how talented, deciding how to build this team. Everyone wants to be LeGM, without understanding LBJ is a total ****ing idiot as the defacto GM of his team. Butler is no cakewalk, not even close, but I don't blame him here.

Sometimes, when the person in front of you is big enough *******, you decide life is just too damn short. Life is too damn short to let a mental midget like Towns run a team into the ground in front of you.

what war did towns lose? he got his money, he got to be where he wants to be, he got rid of his arch enemy, he established his alpha status on his team. is his war to win?


He leveraged his owner into leveraging Thibs to dump Butler fast. And at this stage of the offseason. This is nothing more than a dump now and Butler is an All Star. Towns could have maximized Butler's two years with the team but last season he dogged it.

Players becoming the de facto GM does not work. Not in the NBA, not in any of the pro sports.

It's very hard to separate your personal relationships with your contract relationships. When you play together, you are like family. Good or bad, it's family. It's hard to be objective. Even a coach struggles with a dual role.

Towns is young and has no concept of relationships with owners, agents, the media, brands. On top of this, he's generating a **** reputation with the refs. He has no scouting background, no cap background, no analytics background. He doesn't under the deeper level intricacies of the CBA.

He won a power struggle. To take the unofficial mantle where he is out of his depth. His team will lose accordingly. Trading for Butler and signing Teague was a "Buy In/Lock In" Meaning this was the run you could make now with that roster. Once you lock in, rosters are hard to shift and keep the same level of talent. Thibs and Butler are not blameless, but Towns has no business running his own team.

"what war did towns lose? he got his money, he got to be where he wants to be, he got rid of his arch enemy, he established his alpha status on his team. is his war to win?"

All to the detriment of actually winning. Butler can help you win. It's one thing if Towns played very hard, 200 percent effort and Butler and him didn't get a long. Much of the basis of conflict was that Towns wasn't playing hard all the time. Butler might be an *******, but it doesn't mean he doesn't have a point. Giving Towns this power also JUSTIFIES the behavior, that Towns doesn't have to play hard or answer to anyone.

He's the "Alpha Dog". But this dog is a bitch. His team will lose accordingly. They might make the playoffs, but the ceiling of their potential success is gutted. The front office is also destabilized. I'm not saying Thibs is the right choice for this team, but this is a long term negative precedent for this team. NBA history is littered with guys ( Gary Payton, Kevin Garnett, Deron Williams, LBJ) who ****ed their teams for their egos.

You aren't the Alpha Dog if you keep losing. Towns doesn't see that, but then again, he's a bitch and an idiot.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
meloshouldgo
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9/26/2018  4:50 PM
Towns is becoming an exaggerated version of Melo. Takes plays off, provides questionable effort at best, but it's all about Towns and never about the team.
I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Welpee
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9/26/2018  6:48 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:Towns is becoming an exaggerated version of Melo. Takes plays off, provides questionable effort at best, but it's all about Towns and never about the team.
...and we would take him in a heartbeat.
Nalod
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9/28/2018  7:18 AM
Townes might grow up still.
Add Marbury to the toxic list. Dude left a trail of tears for the 4 franchises he played for.
He had no leverage in Boston.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
meloshouldgo
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9/30/2018  8:16 AM
Welpee wrote:
meloshouldgo wrote:Towns is becoming an exaggerated version of Melo. Takes plays off, provides questionable effort at best, but it's all about Towns and never about the team.
...and we would take him in a heartbeat.

You would? Of the two, I would rather have Butler. At least he plays hard and wants to win.

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
Uptown
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9/30/2018  9:14 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp


More complicated than that.

The argument that Thibs made to his owner is that if you bend the knee to Towns on the Butler issue, you've essentially made him the defcto GM, and he's an idiot.

Thibs and Butler both see you can't win this way.

Towns runs that team now. He won the battle, the power struggle, but lost the war. He's an idiot.

Right now Butler is getting gutted in the press because Towns is simply more marketable and has more long term name brand value to the league and the shoe brands.

Butler doesn't want to play on a team with a low effort ****head, no matter how talented, deciding how to build this team. Everyone wants to be LeGM, without understanding LBJ is a total ****ing idiot as the defacto GM of his team. Butler is no cakewalk, not even close, but I don't blame him here.

Sometimes, when the person in front of you is big enough *******, you decide life is just too damn short. Life is too damn short to let a mental midget like Towns run a team into the ground in front of you.

I see what you mean about LeGm...I mean he only won 3 rings as the so called defacto gm

TripleThreat
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9/30/2018  6:33 PM
Uptown wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:Nice seeing drama from a distance. Butler is leaving his long time coach out to dry. Interesting to see where he lands. Not NY please.


https://sports.yahoo.com/report-tom-thibodeau-met-jimmy-050939994.html

Report: Tom Thibodeau met with Jimmy Butler Monday, tried to convince him to come to camp


More complicated than that.

The argument that Thibs made to his owner is that if you bend the knee to Towns on the Butler issue, you've essentially made him the defcto GM, and he's an idiot.

Thibs and Butler both see you can't win this way.

Towns runs that team now. He won the battle, the power struggle, but lost the war. He's an idiot.

Right now Butler is getting gutted in the press because Towns is simply more marketable and has more long term name brand value to the league and the shoe brands.

Butler doesn't want to play on a team with a low effort ****head, no matter how talented, deciding how to build this team. Everyone wants to be LeGM, without understanding LBJ is a total ****ing idiot as the defacto GM of his team. Butler is no cakewalk, not even close, but I don't blame him here.

Sometimes, when the person in front of you is big enough *******, you decide life is just too damn short. Life is too damn short to let a mental midget like Towns run a team into the ground in front of you.

I see what you mean about LeGm...I mean he only won 3 rings as the so called defacto gm

There's a saying in professional sports

"It's the full narrative but only half of the whole story"

LeBron James really needed more help in all of his Finals runs. It's true, he did need more help. The marketing side of it is pitting LBJ against the entire world. Trying to make a generational player seem like an underdog.

That's the full "narrative"

The "whole story" is he self inflicted his will on multiple rosters gutting them to the point where his decisions are the reasons he didn't get more help.

Wanted to hook up his good buddy Mike Miller in Miami. Team needed a center. Riley and Spo both said the team needed a center more than anything. But Wade buddy Haslem and Miller needed to get paid to keep LBJ and Wade happy. Thus the team sent out Big Z, Dampier, Joel Anthony and scraps to try to defend the pivot. Without Birdman, only via amnesty and his bizarre off the court situation, and a historical radical shift in Bosh's game, Miami doesn't win two rings. One of those rings was in a shortened season.

The third was when Nike decided LBJ needed another ring and the Warriors got one of the worst jobbings in NBA officiating history.

Trading Wiggins for Love, then Tristan Thompson, JR Smith, Jordan Clarkson. Ugh. Then being a diva/douchebag and kept running his coaches over roughshod.

Luc Mbah A Moute was sitting out there and the Cavs went full Derrick Rose/Jose Calderon/Kyle Korver.....

He's that great of a player, that he was able to overcome, a few times, his inherent deep flaws as LeGM. He wouldn't need to drag his teams into the Finals each year if he just let a GM and coach actually do their job.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
smackeddog
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10/8/2018  4:39 AM
Trade talks between the Minnesota Timberwolves and Miami Heat on Jimmy Butler reached the brink of completion before falling apart.

Minnesota had shared Butler's medical information with Miami late in the week.

Glen Taylor and Micky Arison became involved in the trade talks and there was hope of a call to the league to finalize it. But the Wolves moved to amend the framework of the trade and talks collapsed on Saturday.

Miami had softened on including guard Josh Richardson in versions of a possible deal for Butler, only to recoil once Minnesota pushed late for a sweeter return.

Talks could pick up again in the future.

Miami's believed willingness to pay Butler something in the neighborhood of a five-year, $190 million maximum contract next summer has played a part in Butler's enthusiasm in pursuing a deal there.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/251306/Wolves-Heat-Nearly-Reach-Deal-On-Jimmy-Butler-Before-Talks-Collapse


How is Riley doing this?! Somehow convincing the Twolves that he is being generous to finally agree to include Josh Richardson! Looking at the roster I just don't see what miami has of value for Butler- I don't think they can even offer a 1st rounder as they didn't have one last year so can't trade this years, plus they owe their 2021 to the Sixers so they can't trade their 2020.

wargames
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10/8/2018  5:43 AM    LAST EDITED: 10/8/2018  5:44 AM
smackeddog wrote:
Trade talks between the Minnesota Timberwolves and Miami Heat on Jimmy Butler reached the brink of completion before falling apart.

Minnesota had shared Butler's medical information with Miami late in the week.

Glen Taylor and Micky Arison became involved in the trade talks and there was hope of a call to the league to finalize it. But the Wolves moved to amend the framework of the trade and talks collapsed on Saturday.

Miami had softened on including guard Josh Richardson in versions of a possible deal for Butler, only to recoil once Minnesota pushed late for a sweeter return.

Talks could pick up again in the future.

Miami's believed willingness to pay Butler something in the neighborhood of a five-year, $190 million maximum contract next summer has played a part in Butler's enthusiasm in pursuing a deal there.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/251306/Wolves-Heat-Nearly-Reach-Deal-On-Jimmy-Butler-Before-Talks-Collapse


How is Riley doing this?! Somehow convincing the Twolves that he is being generous to finally agree to include Josh Richardson! Looking at the roster I just don't see what miami has of value for Butler- I don't think they can even offer a 1st rounder as they didn't have one last year so can't trade this years, plus they owe their 2021 to the Sixers so they can't trade their 2020.

Thins doesn't want a 1st rounder (which he should) he wants to be in the playoffs and I think the owner does too. So they are trying to get players and Josh Richardson is probably the best they got offered besides Tobias Harris.

The Melo trade went so bad I also doubt teams are eagerly looking to trade both good players and 1st for players about to be FA. It's one or the other.

djsunyc
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10/10/2018  3:34 PM

Panos
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10/10/2018  3:39 PM
djsunyc wrote:

This is Isiah Thomas level circus ****.

OT: Jimmy Butler requests trade

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