knickstorrents wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

knickstorrents wrote:Butler and Kyrie - STAY AWAY.
Seems the new management is determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past. Thank God.

Does it? I haven't been reading all the press but weren't there articles about Kyrie being the primary target for this off season? Or was that one of te hacks that usually make **** up?

I'm just going by what Mills and Perry say in interviews. That Mills does not want to repeat the mistakes of the past, that there are no quick fixes, that they will not trade draft picks.

wargames wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

It was madness, but attitude reflects leadership (our to be more exact ownership) and us fans had been told for like 3 seasons we were going to go after Lebron in 2010. Far too often the knicks would look at players on other teams that were at their peak and want them instead of doing the work of developing their own youth.

LeBron James intentionally gave false hope to lots of teams. Lots of teams cleared space and made poor long term decisions because of it.

Not long after, the players took a massive hit in the next labor war. Thanks in part to LBJ inciting the owners. Many of them got on their knees and literally begged. Dumb **** actually was watching some soccer with Rich Paul and talking OVER an owner giving a presentation. What the ****.

No one is to blame for clearing space for LBJ. The signing of STAT was to soft justify that the team did something instead of nothing, which is on the Knicks.

I do not understand this "development" narrative that people keep pushing. Well the media pushes it and the front offices do because they don't have a choice.

You generally get a baseline idea very quickly in the NBA if a player can break out or not. The idea of "development" is overstated. Erik Spolestra getting a James Johnson to be useful is one thing, but to push a guy outside his talent ceiling/natural skill set into something more isn't likely.

Sometimes guys have injuries. Sometimes guys just never got the minutes. In rare cases, like Jeremy Lin, it's what amounts to open racism. But in most cases, while it takes three years to really know what a player can do, the early flashes are a tell on his ability to adapt/counter adapt to the league getting a scouting book on him.

I keep hearing "development" with Trey Burke. What in the entire hell are people talking about?

If you stop being a bull headed me first *******, because you are running out of teams to give you a chance, that's not actually development.

Butler is a good player. Odds are he will give more production in his 2 and half years of prime left compared to a lottery pick. Someone is going to compare Butler to the top pick in the draft and frankly the Knicks are not getting the top 3 picks in this upcoming draft.

TripleThreat wrote:

wargames wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Melo trade looks even more ridiculous with every passing year- the equivalent today would be trading Mitch, Knox, Mario, Frank/trey Burke and 2 1st rounders for butler. Madness!

It was madness, but attitude reflects leadership (our to be more exact ownership) and us fans had been told for like 3 seasons we were going to go after Lebron in 2010. Far too often the knicks would look at players on other teams that were at their peak and want them instead of doing the work of developing their own youth.

LeBron James intentionally gave false hope to lots of teams. Lots of teams cleared space and made poor long term decisions because of it.

Not long after, the players took a massive hit in the next labor war. Thanks in part to LBJ inciting the owners. Many of them got on their knees and literally begged. Dumb **** actually was watching some soccer with Rich Paul and talking OVER an owner giving a presentation. What the ****.

No one is to blame for clearing space for LBJ. The signing of STAT was to soft justify that the team did something instead of nothing, which is on the Knicks.

I do not understand this "development" narrative that people keep pushing. Well the media pushes it and the front offices do because they don't have a choice.

You generally get a baseline idea very quickly in the NBA if a player can break out or not. The idea of "development" is overstated. Erik Spolestra getting a James Johnson to be useful is one thing, but to push a guy outside his talent ceiling/natural skill set into something more isn't likely.

Sometimes guys have injuries. Sometimes guys just never got the minutes. In rare cases, like Jeremy Lin, it's what amounts to open racism. But in most cases, while it takes three years to really know what a player can do, the early flashes are a tell on his ability to adapt/counter adapt to the league getting a scouting book on him.

I keep hearing "development" with Trey Burke. What in the entire hell are people talking about?

If you stop being a bull headed me first *******, because you are running out of teams to give you a chance, that's not actually development.

Butler is a good player. Odds are he will give more production in his 2 and half years of prime left compared to a lottery pick. Someone is going to compare Butler to the top pick in the draft and frankly the Knicks are not getting the top 3 picks in this upcoming draft.

Yeah Lebron was a complete d*ck in 2010. You are also right its got the owners heated and they took it out on everyone later.

With that said would my statement have been more clear if I had said "draft and developing their own youth". For example, Thibs put it out there he didn't want to trade Jimmy for picks and youth because he wanted to win now and not develop players. You are right about the talent ceiling of players but are completely disregarding the patience/time aspect of that as well. Victor Oladipo was drafted 2nd and everyone said "he could be a star" but 2 teams didn't have the patience to continue to work with him and he was looking like a journeyman until his 4th year. Gordon Hayward (who was drafted with a knicks pick) took about 4-5 years before he was a star caliber player and avg 5 pts his first season. Otto Porter who is a key part of the wizards as their 3&D SF avg 2 his rookie season.

Hell we didn't even have patience with Timmy and traded him and then had to pay to get him back once he went to another team and developed.

It takes players time to develop, and it requires teams to have the patience while they develop. The knicks didn't want to be patient until recently. Since Mills has come onto the knicks there has been a focus on either develping in house or getting guys who other teams developed but slipped under their radar. Its a smarter move than hoping for a star to want to come to NY. Especially with the amount of teams better built to win now like GSW, Rockets, Celtics, and even the raptors.

It makes a lot of sense to load up and try to get ready to be the team to beat in 3-5 years. Right now the Suns, and Philly and maybe Celtics (though I have a feeling the Celtics will have to shed youth to stay competitive now like the Lakers) are the only teams I would say have more young talent than the knicks do.

meloshouldgo wrote:The more I think about it. Who the fukk is Jimmy Butler to force a trade? The wolves should tell him to STFU and they'll trade him when they want to.

You think it's coincidence Towns just agreed to an extension?

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1043695801510313984

Nalod wrote:Read that Thibs did not want Butler traded and he is over GM Layden. now Taylor is stepping in and telling Layden to get it done.
It not unique, its DolanEsque. What is unique is the public nature of it.
Thibs is Coach and President, Layden is the GM. Taylor was right to bring back Flip Saunders and this team has talent but Thibs was not the guy you want long term.
Phil was at least correct to not bring him in. Some fans really wanted Thibs.

CrushAlot wrote:

Nalod wrote:Read that Thibs did not want Butler traded and he is over GM Layden. now Taylor is stepping in and telling Layden to get it done.
It not unique, its DolanEsque. What is unique is the public nature of it.
Thibs is Coach and President, Layden is the GM. Taylor was right to bring back Flip Saunders and this team has talent but Thibs was not the guy you want long term.
Phil was at least correct to not bring him in. Some fans really wanted Thibs.

Phil wanted control of the system and his coach. He wouldn't get that with Thibs. I liked your Larry Brown comparison with Thibs. Thibs needs to be the coach with a gm that is over him and doesn't bow to his whims and desire to recreate the bulls.

Agreed...Didn't see this until after I posted.

TripleThreat wrote:

Nalod wrote:Read that Thibs did not want Butler traded and he is over GM Layden. now Taylor is stepping in and telling Layden to get it done.
It not unique, its DolanEsque. What is unique is the public nature of it.
Thibs is Coach and President, Layden is the GM. Taylor was right to bring back Flip Saunders and this team has talent but Thibs was not the guy you want long term.
Phil was at least correct to not bring him in. Some fans really wanted Thibs.

From what I'm hearing, much of the problem is that Towns went to Thibs and demanded Butler be traded. Him or Me. Thibs said let's work it out. Every team has problems sometimes, but you focus on winning, etc. Then apparently Towns went straight to Taylor and demanded Butler be traded. Him Or Me. Taylor talks to Thibs and Thibs says, correctly, you can't let some guy, even a franchise guy, hold a team hostage like this. Nothing good will come of it.

Taylor caved in many times to Garnett. Which is why you'd see stupid **** like Marko Jaric and Troy Hudson end up on the roster.

Thibs has made many mistakes. But he's not wrong in thinking that this is a double negative. Trading Butler in a truly non leverage position. And giving in to a player holding the team hostage.

Towns sulked all year and often dogged it. Butler got in his face. Lockerroom split. Younger guys toed the line with Towns. Older guys have more history with Butler and lined up with him. Towns apparently rubbed a lot of the refs the wrong way and this season he's going to take a beating. There are going to be a lot of non calls going against him. Towns takes the stance that this is "his team" Butler takes the stance that if it's your team, then play like a leader should.

I wouldn't say this is as bad as Jim Jackson and Jason Kidd feuding over Toni Braxton. ( Which ones of us will be the first to give you herpes?!?) But it's close in pure stupidity. Towns is just really stupid. Thibs and Butler have their issues, but their issue stem from trying to win. Towns needs some kind of external validation to function. Basically like a woman.

Karl Anthony Towns. Franchise player. Punk ass bitch. He wears many hats.

When young dudes are getting 30 millions per for putting the ball in the hole what do you expect?