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Clyde spits truth
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Marv
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8/30/2018  7:50 AM
Sometimes i just love the way he addresses things. Plus i usually agree with him ;-)

- I will always feel durant joining gsw was a d**k move.

- Melo does not deserve to be retired in knick rafters.

- We don't know what kp's post-acl status will be and the franchise's future is riding on it.

Walt Frazier delivers blunt take on Durant and Carmelo legacies
By Post Sports Desk
August 30, 2018 | 12:14am

Walt “Clyde” Frazier is not a fan of the modern-day NBA superteams.

The Knicks legend said Kevin Durant has hurt his legacy by hopping on the Warriors’ championship bandwagon, even saying the Finals MVP’s accomplishments deserve an “asterisk.”
“Durant, as great a player he is, I would still hold back [giving him credit] because he joined a team that really didn’t need him,” the Knicks legend told SiriusXM NBA Radio on Tuesday. “He’s right there with LeBron, probably would’ve surpassed LeBron as the best player in the game soon, but for him doing that I still don’t give him the full credit that he probably would’ve deserved if he stayed in OKC and won a title with that team.”

Frazier said Durant’s decision would hurt his status as one of the NBA all-time greats.
“He’s going to be down the list for me because of that. There will be an asterisk next to his name.
“It’s not something I would’ve done, I would’ve never joined [Jerry] West, [Bill] Russell or [Wilt] Chamberlain. I wanted to kick their butts.”

Frazier, 73, is one of three greatest players in Knicks history and works for the team as the top color commentator on MSG. The Knicks are expected to targeting top stars such as Durant in 2019 free agency, and though he’s not a fan of these super teams, Frazier didn’t rule out the fact one could sprout up in New York.
“You never know what guys are thinking today,” Frazier said. “But today’s players, they have this camaraderie. They want to play together.
[Carmelo Anthony] going to Houston with Chris Paul. They’ve had that going on a long time that they wanted to be teammates. So it’s a possibility these guys might get together and come to New York or whatever.”

Frazier said free-agent speculation is one thing, but the reality is the Knicks have to find out whether Kristaps Porzingis will be an elite player when he returns from his knee injury.
“It’s all rumors,” Frazier added. “The reality is without [Porzingis] we’re going nowhere. He’s our future. So the worst thing that could’ve happened to the Knicks, did happen. This guy blew his knee out and next season he’s supposedly coming back in January but who knows? So if the Knicks don’t get him to his former grandeur things are looking pretty bleak for them.”

Frazier also said he didn’t feel Anthony — the seventh all-time scorer in Knicks history — should have his Knicks jersey retired and feels there are a few former players ahead of him on the list anyway.
“Probably not because he didn’t win a title,” Frazier said. “I’m surprised they didn’t put Allan Houston up there. I’m surprised Bernard King, who is in the Hall of Fame, they haven’t put Bernard up there. So those two guys I think are deserving. Perhaps maybe John Starks. Even the Oak Man, Charles Oakley, but that probably won’t happen with all the stuff he’s done at the Garden. So he’s not held in high esteem right now but I don’t see them putting Melo in there because of that.”

Frazier is among nine former Knicks with their jerseys hanging in the rafters. The others are Dick Barnett, Willis Reed, Patrick Ewing, Earl Monroe, Dick McGuire, Bill Bradley, Dave DeBusschere and coach Red Holzman.

https://nypost.com/2018/08/30/walt-frazier-delivers-blunt-take-on-durant-and-carmelo-legacies/

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QnzKnickerbocker87
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8/30/2018  7:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/30/2018  7:56 AM
Clyde been speaking his mind a lot this off season. I like it

And he's 1000% right abt KD

Keep speaking truth to power, Clyde!

Nalod
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8/30/2018  8:15 AM
I agree with most of it. If Allan is not up there then certainly not Melo. Bernard was here for only 2.5 seasons. It was a hell of a run but not an “Era”. His return to form on a time line did take more time then most remember.
If Knicks win that chip Starks and Oak deserve to have been retired. If Barnett is up there, so should then Starks.
I don’t hold KD on the same plane as Lebron. He does not carry teams like Lebron. James is on MT Rushmore as the best of this generation. Not even close.
KD’s legacy, or any legacy is subjective. Jerry West teams went to the finals A LOT, he won just one. He is no doubt an all time great and I don’t diminish him a bit but Oscar was a better player and not the logo. Wilt was a statistical freak. Clyde is my all time favorite player but reality is he was on some great teams and it enhanced his legacy. He would have been HOF on any team and he sacrificed points for the greater good but we might at times over do it. KD did diminish his legacy but I’m not sure how much upside he had to go. He is not Lebron.

Yes, KP’s injury is a question mark. That’s some obvious stuff right there.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Knixkik
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8/30/2018  8:55 AM
QnzKnickerbocker87 wrote:Clyde been speaking his mind a lot this off season. I like it

And he's 1000% right abt KD

Keep speaking truth to power, Clyde!

It's probably the reason Durant needs to leave GS after this season. He's already got his titles, so he accomplished his personal goals the easiest way he could. No matter how many titles he wins in GS, it doesn't mean anything towards his legacy. If he can go someplace else and help win a title while in his prime, it brings his legacy to another level. If he doesn't care what people think, he can stay and win a bunch more irrelevant titles, but he made it clear with the twitter stuff, etc that he really cares what people think. He probably missed a big opportunity not going to Boston in the first place, but that's water under the bridge. Winning in GS accomplishes nothing for him from here on out so hopefully he goes someplace next season that can help him rebuild his image as a guy who can elevate a team to contender and not just tag along on an already championship team.

LivingLegend
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8/30/2018  10:09 AM
LOL at the thought of Melo being up in the rafters ---- no thank you.
Moonangie
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8/30/2018  10:26 AM
Good points from Clyde. But I don't know about asterisks for KD. If that were the case, lots of players would deserve asterisks (e.g., Boston trio, Lebron to Miami, etc) Suoerteam era is what we're in until the NBA decides it's not good for ratings. I'm surprised that the owners are ok with this approach. Usually parity is the objective, and this is anything but...
martin
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8/30/2018  10:34 AM
Moonangie wrote:Good points from Clyde. But I don't know about asterisks for KD. If that were the case, lots of players would deserve asterisks (e.g., Boston trio, Lebron to Miami, etc) Suoerteam era is what we're in until the NBA decides it's not good for ratings. I'm surprised that the owners are ok with this approach. Usually parity is the objective, and this is anything but...

I think his asterisks line was a player joining a Championship team that really didn't need him versus your definition of a superteam. 2 very different things.

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Juliano
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8/30/2018  10:54 AM
It must be a cultural thing, but I cannot understand the criticism of Durant. The guy prefers to win titles rather than earning a supermax salary, what is there to dislike? Do people prefer someone like Westbrook, who seem happy with his likely hall of fame admission, his regular season stats and a hefty pay, but seems none too concerned with winning a championship?
GustavBahler
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8/30/2018  11:10 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/30/2018  11:16 AM
Juliano wrote:It must be a cultural thing, but I cannot understand the criticism of Durant. The guy prefers to win titles rather than earning a supermax salary, what is there to dislike? Do people prefer someone like Westbrook, who seem happy with his likely hall of fame admission, his regular season stats and a hefty pay, but seems none too concerned with winning a championship?

There are a good number of NBA fans who respect Durant as a game changing player. Some also believe that he was frontrunning, when he left his long time team for greener pastures.

If he really looked, pretty sure Durant could have found a team were he was the final piece to building a legit contender.

Durant chose instead the rival of his long time team, who didnt need his help. Could be interpreted as a "hostile gesture".

QnzKnickerbocker87
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8/30/2018  11:26 AM
Knixkik wrote:
QnzKnickerbocker87 wrote:Clyde been speaking his mind a lot this off season. I like it

And he's 1000% right abt KD

Keep speaking truth to power, Clyde!

It's probably the reason Durant needs to leave GS after this season. He's already got his titles, so he accomplished his personal goals the easiest way he could. No matter how many titles he wins in GS, it doesn't mean anything towards his legacy. If he can go someplace else and help win a title while in his prime, it brings his legacy to another level. If he doesn't care what people think, he can stay and win a bunch more irrelevant titles, but he made it clear with the twitter stuff, etc that he really cares what people think. He probably missed a big opportunity not going to Boston in the first place, but that's water under the bridge. Winning in GS accomplishes nothing for him from here on out so hopefully he goes someplace next season that can help him rebuild his image as a guy who can elevate a team to contender and not just tag along on an already championship team.

Exactly. Agree w/all of this. Great post!

TheGame
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8/30/2018  1:12 PM
I don't like that KD switched teams, but I think talking about an asterick is ridiculous. You still have to play the games, and those Cleveland teams he went against were no joke. There is no easy road to the championship. Plus, there is no championship team that does not have 2-3 all-star type players. Whether you go join a team or a team gets lucky to draft them, every championship team has at least two all-stars. That is just the way it is.

Oakley should be in the rafter. I would also vote for Allan Houston. Bernard King, maybe? I would not put Melo there. We seriously only went to the playoffs twice with him here and we never made it out of the second round. I think you at least need to get the team to the ECF a couple times before we talk about retiring your number.

Playoffs or bust
Cartman718
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8/30/2018  1:21 PM
The NBA has always been at the forefront of political, social involvement I think, compared to NFL, NHL, MLB etc.
Primarily because the game is global and its more popular than ever before.

When Clyde was playing, he talks about going against the other NBA greats, because that was that era...every man for himself so to speak.
Today...the camaraderie surpasses the competitive spirit. But I think there is an upper limit to that.

For example, I have mentioned a couple of times already on this forum that I don't think GSW is going to win the title this coming season.
Sure, joining GSW was a bit of a b***h move by KD, but was it any more of a b***h than the "Not 1, Not 2, Not 3, Not 4...Not 5...Not 6..." announcement at South Beach.

KD didn't start this mess. LeBron did. and the NBA enabled it. KD just took advantage of it because he wanted to beat LeBron at his own game. If the NBA wants this to be cleaned up, they need to put some other rules in place. If a team already has 2 all stars, they cannot trade for another. Or if they have 3 all stars, all new hires must be from the G-League or something like that to force parity.

Look at the NFL, at least you have no idea who will win the Super Bowl to start each season.
With the NBA, the predictability is hurting the sport.

So Clyde is right about being competitive against others, but wrong about KD. If anything, he should be going after the NBA Commish, LeBron, Wade, Bosh for allowing this mess to start in Miami. KP is an all star, lets say Knox gets there in 3 years. At that point, Giannis would be an FA or RFA...if he signs with the Knicks, or this coming season if 2 out of KD and Kyrie and Butler sign with the Knicks, would we be complaining?

It's the NBA's job to clean this up, not KDs.
Asterisks next KD's titles? Does Clyde also accept the asterisk next to the Knicks 1999 Finals run since that was one of the notable things Phil Jax mentioned about the Knicks getting to Finals that year.

It's very convenient to speak about asterisks when you are retired and commentating, but aren't there incentives for all these players in their salary structure such as:
A bonus if we get to playoffs
B bonus if we get to conf finals
C bonus if we get to NBA finals
D bonus if we win NBA finals
E bonus if you are MVP of regular season
F bonus if you are MVP of finals

What is a player expected to do? Not maximize his salary?

Let's say you work for Apple and it tells you get:
A bonus if iPhone XI launch is a success
B bonus if it takes 80% of new phones market within 12 months
C bonus if Apple profits hit pre-determined peak
D bonus if ... list goes on

As an employee...what are you going to do? Take away money from your table in the name of having competitive spirit in the tech world? Take your butt to Microsoft, Samsung, LG, etc?

Let's face it...Clyde is as old school as PJax. In his heyday, salaries were paltry sums of money compared to what they earn today even with the inflation. Pride was worth something back then. Today its about the $$$. Business both ways. How many shoe contracts did Clyde ever total in his career?

KD's move to get championships and earn more $$ while at it is a smart move for him, sucks for the fans I get it.
Lebron's move to Lakers to further his brand and transcendence in popularity...smart move for him to rub shoulders with Hollywood daily, sucks for the fans in Cleveland.

NBA should have rule changes to prevent collusion like this but dont fault KD for it.

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knicks1248
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8/30/2018  2:18 PM
TheGame wrote:I don't like that KD switched teams, but I think talking about an asterick is ridiculous. You still have to play the games, and those Cleveland teams he went against were no joke. There is no easy road to the championship. Plus, there is no championship team that does not have 2-3 all-star type players. Whether you go join a team or a team gets lucky to draft them, every championship team has at least two all-stars. That is just the way it is.

Oakley should be in the rafter. I would also vote for Allan Houston. Bernard King, maybe? I would not put Melo there. We seriously only went to the playoffs twice with him here and we never made it out of the second round. I think you at least need to get the team to the ECF a couple times before we talk about retiring your number.

Dallas and the pistons

but i 100% agree with you,

ES
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8/30/2018  2:33 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
TheGame wrote:I don't like that KD switched teams, but I think talking about an asterick is ridiculous. You still have to play the games, and those Cleveland teams he went against were no joke. There is no easy road to the championship. Plus, there is no championship team that does not have 2-3 all-star type players. Whether you go join a team or a team gets lucky to draft them, every championship team has at least two all-stars. That is just the way it is.

Oakley should be in the rafter. I would also vote for Allan Houston. Bernard King, maybe? I would not put Melo there. We seriously only went to the playoffs twice with him here and we never made it out of the second round. I think you at least need to get the team to the ECF a couple times before we talk about retiring your number.

Dallas and the pistons

but i 100% agree with you,


You can argue that all the starters on those Pistons team were all-star caliber players. Not HOFers necessarily, but top players for their positions at the time. That Dallas team, tho. Pretty much Dirk and a bunch of players past their prime. Heckuva coaching job. I disagree with Clyde on Melo tho. Melo's number kills any of the former Knicks mentioned. I'm a big Allan Houston fan and I think Melo's tenure here had some knocks. But I gotta be fair. Maybe a championship would change my opinion, but Melo had a bigger impact than Starks, Houston, Oakley and Spree.
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8/30/2018  3:10 PM
Spit is right.

Clyde played in the day when players weren't brands, and you weren't set for life by playing NBA basketball. Shit, they were paying Bill Russell $100,001 and everyone thought that was incredible. (that's a whopping $835K today) What Clyde would do back when doesn't really mean jack **** at this point.

Which sort of casts a pall on the intelligence level of his comments, and I grew up reading and re-reading "Nobody Calls Me Walt" everyday.

LeQ's legacy of flopping, playoff quitting, not sticking with his hometown team and taking the easy route to creating superfriend squads in Miami and Cleveland is safe, but KD's legacy is not. Not a whole hell of alot of logic there, no matter what your definition of Superteams are.

BK is in the HOF (Check the internet Clyde, Melo's going to be in the HOF as well) so he should be in the rafters for what exactly? Scoring alot without silly hats and a better game face? Getting swept in the second round? Alan Fucking Houston???? Alan Houston is the reason we got the ECF??? Maybe we can get Jeremy Lin up there as well. Spree carried us to the Finals after Ewing broke down, maybe he should get his number retired too?

And apparently Clyde's not too aware of what KP's 'former grandeur' got us. An all star appearance. And draft picks. And a cool nickname.

You guys spend a lot of time commenting on the internet?
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8/30/2018  4:47 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
TheGame wrote:I don't like that KD switched teams, but I think talking about an asterick is ridiculous. You still have to play the games, and those Cleveland teams he went against were no joke. There is no easy road to the championship. Plus, there is no championship team that does not have 2-3 all-star type players. Whether you go join a team or a team gets lucky to draft them, every championship team has at least two all-stars. That is just the way it is.

Oakley should be in the rafter. I would also vote for Allan Houston. Bernard King, maybe? I would not put Melo there. We seriously only went to the playoffs twice with him here and we never made it out of the second round. I think you at least need to get the team to the ECF a couple times before we talk about retiring your number.

Dallas and the pistons

but i 100% agree with you,


You can argue that all the starters on those Pistons team were all-star caliber players. Not HOFers necessarily, but top players for their positions at the time. That Dallas team, tho. Pretty much Dirk and a bunch of players past their prime. Heckuva coaching job. I disagree with Clyde on Melo tho. Melo's number kills any of the former Knicks mentioned. I'm a big Allan Houston fan and I think Melo's tenure here had some knocks. But I gotta be fair. Maybe a championship would change my opinion, but Melo had a bigger impact than Starks, Houston, Oakley and Spree.

Good point, Melo will always get a bad rap because he wasn't able to have the success oak, starks and Allan had. those guys had a solid supporting cast and 2 great coaches. Melo had MDA, Woodson, Fisher, and jeff hornacek, and a bunch of broken down vets, and suspect role players.

ES
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8/30/2018  7:58 PM
Cartman718 wrote:The NBA has always been at the forefront of political, social involvement I think, compared to NFL, NHL, MLB etc.
Primarily because the game is global and its more popular than ever before.

When Clyde was playing, he talks about going against the other NBA greats, because that was that era...every man for himself so to speak.
Today...the camaraderie surpasses the competitive spirit. But I think there is an upper limit to that.

For example, I have mentioned a couple of times already on this forum that I don't think GSW is going to win the title this coming season.
Sure, joining GSW was a bit of a b***h move by KD, but was it any more of a b***h than the "Not 1, Not 2, Not 3, Not 4...Not 5...Not 6..." announcement at South Beach.

KD didn't start this mess. LeBron did. and the NBA enabled it. KD just took advantage of it because he wanted to beat LeBron at his own game. If the NBA wants this to be cleaned up, they need to put some other rules in place. If a team already has 2 all stars, they cannot trade for another. Or if they have 3 all stars, all new hires must be from the G-League or something like that to force parity.

Look at the NFL, at least you have no idea who will win the Super Bowl to start each season.
With the NBA, the predictability is hurting the sport.

So Clyde is right about being competitive against others, but wrong about KD. If anything, he should be going after the NBA Commish, LeBron, Wade, Bosh for allowing this mess to start in Miami. KP is an all star, lets say Knox gets there in 3 years. At that point, Giannis would be an FA or RFA...if he signs with the Knicks, or this coming season if 2 out of KD and Kyrie and Butler sign with the Knicks, would we be complaining?

It's the NBA's job to clean this up, not KDs.
Asterisks next KD's titles? Does Clyde also accept the asterisk next to the Knicks 1999 Finals run since that was one of the notable things Phil Jax mentioned about the Knicks getting to Finals that year.

It's very convenient to speak about asterisks when you are retired and commentating, but aren't there incentives for all these players in their salary structure such as:
A bonus if we get to playoffs
B bonus if we get to conf finals
C bonus if we get to NBA finals
D bonus if we win NBA finals
E bonus if you are MVP of regular season
F bonus if you are MVP of finals

What is a player expected to do? Not maximize his salary?

Let's say you work for Apple and it tells you get:
A bonus if iPhone XI launch is a success
B bonus if it takes 80% of new phones market within 12 months
C bonus if Apple profits hit pre-determined peak
D bonus if ... list goes on

As an employee...what are you going to do? Take away money from your table in the name of having competitive spirit in the tech world? Take your butt to Microsoft, Samsung, LG, etc?

Let's face it...Clyde is as old school as PJax. In his heyday, salaries were paltry sums of money compared to what they earn today even with the inflation. Pride was worth something back then. Today its about the $$$. Business both ways. How many shoe contracts did Clyde ever total in his career?

KD's move to get championships and earn more $$ while at it is a smart move for him, sucks for the fans I get it.
Lebron's move to Lakers to further his brand and transcendence in popularity...smart move for him to rub shoulders with Hollywood daily, sucks for the fans in Cleveland.

NBA should have rule changes to prevent collusion like this but dont fault KD for it.

The NBA has way to many teams. Nowhere near the talent base for 30 teams. You could chop like 6 teams and it still wouldn't make a dent

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arkrud
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8/30/2018  10:03 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
TheGame wrote:I don't like that KD switched teams, but I think talking about an asterick is ridiculous. You still have to play the games, and those Cleveland teams he went against were no joke. There is no easy road to the championship. Plus, there is no championship team that does not have 2-3 all-star type players. Whether you go join a team or a team gets lucky to draft them, every championship team has at least two all-stars. That is just the way it is.

Oakley should be in the rafter. I would also vote for Allan Houston. Bernard King, maybe? I would not put Melo there. We seriously only went to the playoffs twice with him here and we never made it out of the second round. I think you at least need to get the team to the ECF a couple times before we talk about retiring your number.

Dallas and the pistons

but i 100% agree with you,


You can argue that all the starters on those Pistons team were all-star caliber players. Not HOFers necessarily, but top players for their positions at the time. That Dallas team, tho. Pretty much Dirk and a bunch of players past their prime. Heckuva coaching job. I disagree with Clyde on Melo tho. Melo's number kills any of the former Knicks mentioned. I'm a big Allan Houston fan and I think Melo's tenure here had some knocks. But I gotta be fair. Maybe a championship would change my opinion, but Melo had a bigger impact than Starks, Houston, Oakley and Spree.

Good point, Melo will always get a bad rap because he wasn't able to have the success oak, starks and Allan had. those guys had a solid supporting cast and 2 great coaches. Melo had MDA, Woodson, Fisher, and jeff hornacek, and a bunch of broken down vets, and suspect role players.

Melo get what he had constructed himself. Teams which cannot win but will highlight his great abilities to make buckets.
He should be at the rafters bit it should read "Melo-Bakets-Maker". The greatest ever.

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knickstorrents
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8/30/2018  11:07 PM
knicks1248 wrote:Good point, Melo will always get a bad rap because he wasn't able to have the success oak, starks and Allan had. those guys had a solid supporting cast and 2 great coaches. Melo had MDA, Woodson, Fisher, and jeff hornacek, and a bunch of broken down vets, and suspect role players.

Melo gets the rap he deserves. He gutted the team by forcing the trade instead of waiting. He also plays losing basketball. This type of player does NOT deserve getting his number in the rafters.

Rose is not the answer.
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8/31/2018  5:56 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/31/2018  6:02 AM
You want parity take away the max salary. These guys will fight for highest paid player and you won't have 3-4 guys on the same team. The problem is in the NBA eyes there is no reason to fix it. The NBA is truly the sport of front running, it gets higher ratings when there are dominant teams. I would say the majority of NBA fans don't have a favorite team. They just like to watch great players win.
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Clyde spits truth

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