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OT: What If Giannis Antetokounmpo Becomes Available?
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NardDogNation
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8/7/2018  9:21 PM
TheGame wrote:interesting question. My view is we have been down this path too many times to try it again even with a Gannis. Stay the course, sign 1 or 2 max players and ride and die with what we develop. I think in Knox and Robinson we have two max type players by their 3rd and 4th years. Our team will be stacked just by staying the course. Just say not to trades that gut the team.

Have we? I don't think it's fair to try and conflate this type of scenario with anything we've done in the past because Giannis is a generational talent and would easily be the best player to don a Knicks jersey. That doesn't grow on trees and are understood to be the foundation pieces of dynasties. So I think it's actually prudent to sell the farm for Giannis if he does become available. More importantly, we'd actually have the means to re-tool the team around him (and KP) by using cap space ala the Heat in 2010 or what the Lakers plan on doing with LeBron in 2019. In the past, we not only gutted the team but traded away future assets and cap space to improve the team around a fatally flawed all-star.

But like you I'm high on Kevin Knox and could see the appeal of Mitchell Robinson. Even with that being the case, their best case scenario does not equal what a 23 year old Giannis already is now, let alone in the future. And even scarier is that Giannis combines BOTH their skillsets (Knox on the offensive end and Mitchell on the defensive end; playing both their positions and lead guard). Having him at max basically gets you a better version of Knox and Mitchell, who would EACH require max if they fulfill their potential. So it stands to reason that consolidating the talent and price makes MORE sense.

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NardDogNation
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8/7/2018  9:30 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

There is no doubt in my mind that Giannis is and will remain the better player to KP. But including KP in a trade for Giannis feels a bit counterproductive and unnecessary. If things do reach a point when Giannis demands a trade, the Bucks will lose leverage and are at the whims of Giannis and the teams he wants to go to. Afterall, in every scenario where a star/superstar got traded, his new team kept it's best player or asset: the Wolves kept Karl Anthony Towns when they got Jimmy Butler; the Thunder kept Russell Westbrook when they got Paul George. So I doubt we'd have to give up KP to make this work.

For a moment, could you imagine how amazing we'd look with just those two on the roster? Defensively, we'd be instant juggernauts and could set historical records with that type of versatility.

NardDogNation
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8/7/2018  9:32 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

Yeah, everyone on the roster would have to be on the table if Giannis was available. Coach might feel differently, but I'd throw in Natasha too lol A shame this scenario won't take place until Giannis is 33 years old.

Do you think it would be necessary to include KP though? I don't ever remember a trade where a team got a superstar and had to give up their best player in the process.

BigDaddyG
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8/8/2018  2:12 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

Yeah, everyone on the roster would have to be on the table if Giannis was available. Coach might feel differently, but I'd throw in Natasha too lol A shame this scenario won't take place until Giannis is 33 years old.

Do you think it would be necessary to include KP though? I don't ever remember a trade where a team got a superstar and had to give up their best player in the process.


Yes, because we're still in the talent and asset acquisition phase. Knox looks good, but he hasn't played a NBA game yet. Same with MitchRob. Frank is still developing. Thos are nice pieces, but Giannis is arguably a top 5 guy right now. We have some nice pieces for a trade, but only if KP is the centerpiece. That could change a little bit if Giannis forces his way out like Kawhi. But other teams could dwarf what we're offering if we made KP untouchable.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
franco12
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8/8/2018  1:41 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

Yeah, everyone on the roster would have to be on the table if Giannis was available. Coach might feel differently, but I'd throw in Natasha too lol A shame this scenario won't take place until Giannis is 33 years old.

Do you think it would be necessary to include KP though? I don't ever remember a trade where a team got a superstar and had to give up their best player in the process.


Yes, because we're still in the talent and asset acquisition phase. Knox looks good, but he hasn't played a NBA game yet. Same with MitchRob. Frank is still developing. Thos are nice pieces, but Giannis is arguably a top 5 guy right now. We have some nice pieces for a trade, but only if KP is the centerpiece. That could change a little bit if Giannis forces his way out like Kawhi. But other teams could dwarf what we're offering if we made KP untouchable.

I agree. Short of Giannis saying he is going back to Greece unless he is traded to the Knicks, I do not see how we could acquire him.

We should be working towards when he is a FA, and make sure we can offer max dollars then.

Knixkik
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8/8/2018  3:34 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

There is no doubt in my mind that Giannis is and will remain the better player to KP. But including KP in a trade for Giannis feels a bit counterproductive and unnecessary. If things do reach a point when Giannis demands a trade, the Bucks will lose leverage and are at the whims of Giannis and the teams he wants to go to. Afterall, in every scenario where a star/superstar got traded, his new team kept it's best player or asset: the Wolves kept Karl Anthony Towns when they got Jimmy Butler; the Thunder kept Russell Westbrook when they got Paul George. So I doubt we'd have to give up KP to make this work.

For a moment, could you imagine how amazing we'd look with just those two on the roster? Defensively, we'd be instant juggernauts and could set historical records with that type of versatility.

KP, Giannis, and Knox at the 3, 4, and 5 is literally the perfect frontcourt for the future and current state of the league.

NardDogNation
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8/8/2018  11:37 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

Yeah, everyone on the roster would have to be on the table if Giannis was available. Coach might feel differently, but I'd throw in Natasha too lol A shame this scenario won't take place until Giannis is 33 years old.

Do you think it would be necessary to include KP though? I don't ever remember a trade where a team got a superstar and had to give up their best player in the process.


Yes, because we're still in the talent and asset acquisition phase. Knox looks good, but he hasn't played a NBA game yet. Same with MitchRob. Frank is still developing. Thos are nice pieces, but Giannis is arguably a top 5 guy right now. We have some nice pieces for a trade, but only if KP is the centerpiece. That could change a little bit if Giannis forces his way out like Kawhi. But other teams could dwarf what we're offering if we made KP untouchable.

I doubt that between now and the season Giannis would demand a trade. The pressure to either trade him or lose him wouldn't start until the end of next season (when he'd only have 2 years left), which will have been more than enough time for Knox, Ntilikina and Mitchell to be evaluated. They may be young and still largely unproven but most trade packages for stars involve youth with potential and future draft picks ala Jimmy Butler for Zach Lavine, Khris Dunn and the 7th pick in the 2017 draft. Why would the structure of a Giannis deal be any different?

It may be entirely speculation on my part but I think Knox can replicate (and exceed) what Jayson Tatum did last season. If the hunch bares itself out, I think it puts us square in the hunt for Giannis, especially if Robinson could put up pretty numbers like he did in the summer league. I don't think many teams out there could exceed the "potential" associated with that type of offer.

The Celtics (often thought to have the most assets) do not have the contracts available to match Giannis', without sacrificing a core piece in Hayward, Irving or Horford. And with Irving and Horford set to be free agents, I don't see the Bucks valuing them as assets, without Jayson Tatum AND Jaylen Brown being included. But if you're the Celtics and you make that move, what are you really left with to build? That reality makes me optimistic that whatever package we offer could compete with the Celtics, since we'll have cap space to absorb Giannis' deal without having to match contracts. And while the Celtics may have things like the Kings' 2019 pick we will be pretty bad and can offer our own pick, which would be of comparative value.

NardDogNation
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8/8/2018  11:41 PM
Knixkik wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

There is no doubt in my mind that Giannis is and will remain the better player to KP. But including KP in a trade for Giannis feels a bit counterproductive and unnecessary. If things do reach a point when Giannis demands a trade, the Bucks will lose leverage and are at the whims of Giannis and the teams he wants to go to. Afterall, in every scenario where a star/superstar got traded, his new team kept it's best player or asset: the Wolves kept Karl Anthony Towns when they got Jimmy Butler; the Thunder kept Russell Westbrook when they got Paul George. So I doubt we'd have to give up KP to make this work.

For a moment, could you imagine how amazing we'd look with just those two on the roster? Defensively, we'd be instant juggernauts and could set historical records with that type of versatility.

KP, Giannis, and Knox at the 3, 4, and 5 is literally the perfect frontcourt for the future and current state of the league.

That's presuming Giannis will ever be a free agent. Most stars get traded if there is even a hint they might leave. In fact, I can't think of a single star (other than Durant) that has signed with a team outright in the post-LeBron to the Heat era, that was still in their prime. So if we're serious about Giannis, we should start preparing a package for him or be prepared to suffer what Laker fans are going through after the Paul George re-signing and Kawhi Leonard trade.

NardDogNation
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8/8/2018  11:53 PM    LAST EDITED: 8/8/2018  11:56 PM
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

Yeah, everyone on the roster would have to be on the table if Giannis was available. Coach might feel differently, but I'd throw in Natasha too lol A shame this scenario won't take place until Giannis is 33 years old.

Do you think it would be necessary to include KP though? I don't ever remember a trade where a team got a superstar and had to give up their best player in the process.


Yes, because we're still in the talent and asset acquisition phase. Knox looks good, but he hasn't played a NBA game yet. Same with MitchRob. Frank is still developing. Thos are nice pieces, but Giannis is arguably a top 5 guy right now. We have some nice pieces for a trade, but only if KP is the centerpiece. That could change a little bit if Giannis forces his way out like Kawhi. But other teams could dwarf what we're offering if we made KP untouchable.

I agree. Short of Giannis saying he is going back to Greece unless he is traded to the Knicks, I do not see how we could acquire him.

We should be working towards when he is a FA, and make sure we can offer max dollars then.

I think only the Celtics could outbid us because I doubt the Sixers would give up either Embiid or Simmons. And even the Celtics have their limitations in outbidding us, should Knox and Mitchell continue their intrigue.

First, they don't have expendable contracts to match Giannis' contract, which means they'd have to include Irving, Hayward or Horford. The problem is that none of those players would be assets to the Bucks despite being meaningful players to any team. Hayward is coming off that horrific injury, while Irving and Horford are set to be free agents and are unlikely to stay in Milwaukee. That means to make the deal worthwhile for the Bucks, the Celtics would have to give up one of the aforementioned players as well as Jaylen Brown AND Jayson Tatum. But if the Celtics do that, what are they really left with? It would negate the value of trading for Giannis in the first place, if they let themselves become that depleted.

As a result, I could only see BOS giving up one of their star veterans, Jaylen Brown OR Jayson Tatum and attempt to bridge the value gap with draft picks. If that's the package though, I think we can compete with it. After all, we'd have the cap space to simply absorb Giannis' contract and create cap flexibility for MIL. I think Kevin Knox could be everything Jayson Tatum/Jaylen Brown could be, which would be a wash if it does happen. And while the Celtics have the Kings' 2019 lottery pick...we've got our own 2019 lottery pick to match value, while a Frank Ntilikina and Mitchell Robinson could mitigate whatever value the Celtics might muster with future first round picks. So what offer is out there that can outpace what we can?

BigDaddyG
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8/9/2018  2:52 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:if I got the call to trade for Giannis, I would mute the phone, put it down, and run and jump around screaming and giddy. Unicorn? Giannis is a unicorn. He could very well be the best player in the league in a few years. I love KP but I'd trade him for Giannis in a New York Minute

Yeah, everyone on the roster would have to be on the table if Giannis was available. Coach might feel differently, but I'd throw in Natasha too lol A shame this scenario won't take place until Giannis is 33 years old.

Do you think it would be necessary to include KP though? I don't ever remember a trade where a team got a superstar and had to give up their best player in the process.


Yes, because we're still in the talent and asset acquisition phase. Knox looks good, but he hasn't played a NBA game yet. Same with MitchRob. Frank is still developing. Thos are nice pieces, but Giannis is arguably a top 5 guy right now. We have some nice pieces for a trade, but only if KP is the centerpiece. That could change a little bit if Giannis forces his way out like Kawhi. But other teams could dwarf what we're offering if we made KP untouchable.

I agree. Short of Giannis saying he is going back to Greece unless he is traded to the Knicks, I do not see how we could acquire him.

We should be working towards when he is a FA, and make sure we can offer max dollars then.

I think only the Celtics could outbid us because I doubt the Sixers would give up either Embiid or Simmons. And even the Celtics have their limitations in outbidding us, should Knox and Mitchell continue their intrigue.

First, they don't have expendable contracts to match Giannis' contract, which means they'd have to include Irving, Hayward or Horford. The problem is that none of those players would be assets to the Bucks despite being meaningful players to any team. Hayward is coming off that horrific injury, while Irving and Horford are set to be free agents and are unlikely to stay in Milwaukee. That means to make the deal worthwhile for the Bucks, the Celtics would have to give up one of the aforementioned players as well as Jaylen Brown AND Jayson Tatum. But if the Celtics do that, what are they really left with? It would negate the value of trading for Giannis in the first place, if they let themselves become that depleted.

As a result, I could only see BOS giving up one of their star veterans, Jaylen Brown OR Jayson Tatum and attempt to bridge the value gap with draft picks. If that's the package though, I think we can compete with it. After all, we'd have the cap space to simply absorb Giannis' contract and create cap flexibility for MIL. I think Kevin Knox could be everything Jayson Tatum/Jaylen Brown could be, which would be a wash if it does happen. And while the Celtics have the Kings' 2019 lottery pick...we've got our own 2019 lottery pick to match value, while a Frank Ntilikina and Mitchell Robinson could mitigate whatever value the Celtics might muster with future first round picks. So what offer is out there that can outpace what we can?


It's kind of hard to forecast this, because none of our rookies played a season yet. Tatum and Brown are proven commodities. Knox and MitchRob had nice Summerleagues. If I'm Milwaukee, I'd take a package of one good vet, Tatum or Brown, and a pick over our KPless package. I don't think you'd have to give up Tatum and Brown. Tatum and Picks would do it. Giannis is just turning 24 and is arguably a top 5 guy. As talented as Tatum is, you don't let that get in the way of landing Giannis. You can't compare this to the Chicago/Butler situation, because Giannis is younger,better and has a better injury history. Things are different if Knox, Frank and MitchRob blow up this season.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
ThePunisher
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8/11/2018  8:40 AM    LAST EDITED: 8/11/2018  9:50 AM
NardDogNation wrote:Just to be clear, I've been a proponent of the youth movement and building through the draft in general...but if Giannis becomes available, I think I'd sacrifice whatever we've collected (outside of KP), our 2019 first round pick (unprotected) and future picks for him. I think what we have in Knox, Mitchell, Ntilikina and assets are compelling enough to field a competitive offer if there is a bidding war. It would deplete our team but with impending cap space, I think we could reasonably re-tool around both he and Kristaps. Worse comes to worse, we could take a swing at Kyrie, who I wouldn't mind as the 3rd star on the team (and is the only scenario I'd want him). Of course all this is contingent on the Bucks underperforming this season but I don't see that as a stretch with their lack of floor-spacing and creators despite the addition of Budenholzer.

*edited for accuracy

Bucks aren't trading Giannis. That means Knicks only hope is in FA in 2021, which means you need to invest an hour looking at the Knicks cap situation before posting things like this. It's time (sort of) well spent.

Ironically, if the Knicks struck out next summer even after stretching Noah, renounced all cap holds minus Frank's and the mandatory minimums going forward, resigned KP to his max, drafted a player this offseason say at #5 overall, resigned Frank to let's say a conservative 5 year / $90 Million contract starting at $17 Million...

they'd likely have enough to afford Giannis' 4 year max (starting at 30% of the estimated $120million salary cap) when you adjust for '20 and '21 draft pick holds.

You'd be fielding a crew of:

Minor 2021 FA
Mid-Level Exception FA
KP
Knox
Ntilikina
Robinson
Giannis
2019 #5 Overall (Zion?)

And presumably the Knicks would utilize a mixture of a few minor cap exceptions but mostly min. salary players to fill out the roster. They'd be completely capped out for the foreseeable future with no flexibility. What you see above is what you'd get for their entire run.

Anyway, whether you think that's a sexy lineup or not - again...in reality, there's no way to acquire Giannis. I highly doubt he sacrifices that extra $50 Million in a 5th year with the Bucks via the supermax extension.

OT: What If Giannis Antetokounmpo Becomes Available?

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