fishmike wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

ekstarks94 wrote:Why is the board adamant about having scoring from the pg position?

I agree that Frank needs to do enough to keep them honest, but if Frank brings 10-14 pts, 5-6 asts, 3-5 rebs, and the ability to slow down the opp team 20-25ppg pg down to 12-16 ppg, then I believe he is worth his weight in gold. KP, Knox, and Tim are going to score....they need a set-up man...Frank can do that in spades....he is not proficient in the drive and kick, but Knox and Timmy can take it to the rack and do not have to be relegated to the corner kick.

If Frank put up those numbers next season, that would be real progress. If we have to wait all 4 years to get to that point. Chances are guys are going to pass him for minutes in the meantime. Its about how long it takes to get there.

Wouldnt blame you for invoking his age. At the same time coaches have their own timetable, GMs as well. They're preaching patience, but also want to see progress.

Hope Frank plays more like he did before he got hurt in SL. Looking for his shot, not overthinking things.

We saw the old Frank on offense, and a new improved Frank, in SL. We'll see next season which game will win out.

he may get passed in terms of starting PG or PG of the future but he wont be in minutes. He's incredibly coachable, locks down opposing players, plays hard and has also shined in big moments when the game was on the line (and a win still mattered). Frank is a coaches dream and they will keep finding ways to run him out there because every coach knows everything works better when guys like Frank are on the floor. Sometimes its that simple.

Hope you're right or some of you will be wearing "1248" brand jeans.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

The first part of the bolded section is the thrust of what Im saying. If there is an opportunity to get better in the backcourt, and Frank still has a ways to go on offense, then Perry should go for it.

Disagree about the second part. Never did subscribe to the notion that if a player starts playing at another level several seasons down the road, that it was a mistake to trade them. For all we know it could be a change of scenery. city, coaches, teammates, that brought out a player's best.

I dont want to sell Frank for pennies on the dollar either. Ive commented negatively on trades involving Frank on this board that sold him short.

If it were to be several years than yea. If it was within the expected 3rd yr jump which is the league average for when players production drastically raise then no. And would strictly be attributed to lack of patience.

Frank is also a unique player. His PNR defense and switch ability is absolutely crucial for today's NBA. We KNOW that he will bring that aspect. We don't know how much that can effect the team when he matures though. These are abilities that not many teams can offer and may be something that forces the NBA to have to adapt to the Knicks. You don't seem to value this aspect at all.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

The first part of the bolded section is the thrust of what Im saying. If there is an opportunity to get better in the backcourt, and Frank still has a ways to go on offense, then Perry should go for it.

Disagree about the second part. Never did subscribe to the notion that if a player starts playing at another level several seasons down the road, that it was a mistake to trade them. For all we know it could be a change of scenery. city, coaches, teammates, that brought out a player's best.

I dont want to sell Frank for pennies on the dollar either. Ive commented negatively on trades involving Frank on this board that sold him short.

If it were to be several years than yea. If it was within the expected 3rd yr jump which is the league average for when players production drastically raise then no. And would strictly be attributed to lack of patience.

Frank is also a unique player. His PNR defense and switch ability is absolutely crucial for today's NBA. We KNOW that he will bring that aspect. We don't know how much that can effect the team when he matures though. These are abilities that not many teams can offer and may be something that forces the NBA to have to adapt to the Knicks. You don't seem to value this aspect at all.

I value 5 on 5 more than 4 on 5. Just want to see some progress next season on that front. Not asking a lot... back off man!!! LOL. We"ll see.what happens. Hope Frank shocks the world.

TheGame wrote:I just don't understand all the pessimistic views. Can Frank run a pick and roll (the main play in the NBA)? Yes, he is very good at running the play. Can Frank hit a 3? Yes, he shot 38% in corner threes and should improve this year with his overall percentages. Does Frank have an offensive skill that gives him an advantage? Yes, Frank's height verses other PGs give him an advantage both in passing and in shooting over them. Can Frank defend? Yes, he is the best PNR defender in the league AS A ROOKIE and he will only get better. It is like just because this kid does not break guys down like Westbrook, he cannot be a good starter. Guys like Chauncey BIllups, Derek Harper, and Mookie Blaylock, were all solid PGs who I would say were not lightening quick but still got the job done. Frank will be fine.

There are those who are bullish on him only talk about his potential and defense, as if offense doesn't really matter when it comes to him.

Then we have those fans and media who think his potential and defense, is not good enough to over shadow his offense and passive approach.

And some have accepted him for who he is now and have pretty much labeled him a 20 to 25 minute per night role player, and have curb their expectations.

It's on the offensive end of the floor where Ntilikina has struggled most. He never profiled as a shoot-first rim-seeker, but there's a middle ground he's failed to discover, a tendency that a second NBA executive, one who scouted him in France said is part of his DNA. "He's passive," the executive said. "It's who he is."

Ntilikina rarely attacks the basket and too often settles for pull-up jumpers off pick-and-rolls. The 4.3 drives he averages per game, according to NBA.com, is in the same ballpark as sharpshooting gunners like Patty Mills and Joe Harris. Ntilikina could get away with some of these decisions if he were a knockdown shooter, but he's drilled just 31.9 percent of his triples and only 31.0 percent of his mid-range looks, according to Cleaning the Glass.

But Ntilikina will never reach his ceiling if he doesn't become more aggressive. Three-and-D guys are nice, but that's not what the Knicks had in mind when they picked him over high-scoring guards like Donovan Mitchell and Dennis Smith Jr. Even if Ntilikina winds up settling in as an off-guard, where he's spent the majority of his minutes since the Knicks signed Trey Burke and acquired Emmanuel Mudiay, he'll still need to become more aggressive and learn to attack the rim to truly justify that high draft slot.

Those around the NBA who are bullish on Ntilikina believe in him primarily because they feel he can evolve into one of the game's top perimeter defenders. He has all the attributes teams look for in their desperate search for players flexible enough to keep up with today's space-and-pace game. As one league executive put it: "He fits the positionless basketball model that the league is adapting."

knicks1248 wrote:

TheGame wrote:I just don't understand all the pessimistic views. Can Frank run a pick and roll (the main play in the NBA)? Yes, he is very good at running the play. Can Frank hit a 3? Yes, he shot 38% in corner threes and should improve this year with his overall percentages. Does Frank have an offensive skill that gives him an advantage? Yes, Frank's height verses other PGs give him an advantage both in passing and in shooting over them. Can Frank defend? Yes, he is the best PNR defender in the league AS A ROOKIE and he will only get better. It is like just because this kid does not break guys down like Westbrook, he cannot be a good starter. Guys like Chauncey BIllups, Derek Harper, and Mookie Blaylock, were all solid PGs who I would say were not lightening quick but still got the job done. Frank will be fine.

There are those who are bullish on him only talk about his potential and defense, as if offense doesn't really matter when it comes to him.

Then we have those fans and media who think his potential and defense, is not good enough to over shadow his offense and passive approach.

And some have accepted him for who he is now and have pretty much labeled him a 20 to 25 minute per night role player, and have curb their expectations.

It's on the offensive end of the floor where Ntilikina has struggled most. He never profiled as a shoot-first rim-seeker, but there's a middle ground he's failed to discover, a tendency that a second NBA executive, one who scouted him in France said is part of his DNA. "He's passive," the executive said. "It's who he is."

Ntilikina rarely attacks the basket and too often settles for pull-up jumpers off pick-and-rolls. The 4.3 drives he averages per game, according to NBA.com, is in the same ballpark as sharpshooting gunners like Patty Mills and Joe Harris. Ntilikina could get away with some of these decisions if he were a knockdown shooter, but he's drilled just 31.9 percent of his triples and only 31.0 percent of his mid-range looks, according to Cleaning the Glass.

But Ntilikina will never reach his ceiling if he doesn't become more aggressive. Three-and-D guys are nice, but that's not what the Knicks had in mind when they picked him over high-scoring guards like Donovan Mitchell and Dennis Smith Jr. Even if Ntilikina winds up settling in as an off-guard, where he's spent the majority of his minutes since the Knicks signed Trey Burke and acquired Emmanuel Mudiay, he'll still need to become more aggressive and learn to attack the rim to truly justify that high draft slot.

Those around the NBA who are bullish on Ntilikina believe in him primarily because they feel he can evolve into one of the game's top perimeter defenders. He has all the attributes teams look for in their desperate search for players flexible enough to keep up with today's space-and-pace game. As one league executive put it: "He fits the positionless basketball model that the league is adapting."

Too bad Frank is not as aggresive with the ball as you are hating on him!
In a league of ball hogs we got a kid that passes too much.
My eye test sees the kid in transition makes great passes on plays he could have taken it himself.
Like thats a bad thing? His job was to set everyone else up. That's what teenage pro's did in the Euroleague.
Just remember when the Frank Bandwagon is rolling down the street you can never get on. Never. We will kick your fingers if you try to climb on, pull your disguises off, and leave you to the wolves.
If he turns to be a bust, you can get on your soap box and say you were right. Im sure the room won't be crowded.

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

TheGame wrote:I just don't understand all the pessimistic views. Can Frank run a pick and roll (the main play in the NBA)? Yes, he is very good at running the play. Can Frank hit a 3? Yes, he shot 38% in corner threes and should improve this year with his overall percentages. Does Frank have an offensive skill that gives him an advantage? Yes, Frank's height verses other PGs give him an advantage both in passing and in shooting over them. Can Frank defend? Yes, he is the best PNR defender in the league AS A ROOKIE and he will only get better. It is like just because this kid does not break guys down like Westbrook, he cannot be a good starter. Guys like Chauncey BIllups, Derek Harper, and Mookie Blaylock, were all solid PGs who I would say were not lightening quick but still got the job done. Frank will be fine.

There are those who are bullish on him only talk about his potential and defense, as if offense doesn't really matter when it comes to him.

Then we have those fans and media who think his potential and defense, is not good enough to over shadow his offense and passive approach.

And some have accepted him for who he is now and have pretty much labeled him a 20 to 25 minute per night role player, and have curb their expectations.

It's on the offensive end of the floor where Ntilikina has struggled most. He never profiled as a shoot-first rim-seeker, but there's a middle ground he's failed to discover, a tendency that a second NBA executive, one who scouted him in France said is part of his DNA. "He's passive," the executive said. "It's who he is."

Ntilikina rarely attacks the basket and too often settles for pull-up jumpers off pick-and-rolls. The 4.3 drives he averages per game, according to NBA.com, is in the same ballpark as sharpshooting gunners like Patty Mills and Joe Harris. Ntilikina could get away with some of these decisions if he were a knockdown shooter, but he's drilled just 31.9 percent of his triples and only 31.0 percent of his mid-range looks, according to Cleaning the Glass.

But Ntilikina will never reach his ceiling if he doesn't become more aggressive. Three-and-D guys are nice, but that's not what the Knicks had in mind when they picked him over high-scoring guards like Donovan Mitchell and Dennis Smith Jr. Even if Ntilikina winds up settling in as an off-guard, where he's spent the majority of his minutes since the Knicks signed Trey Burke and acquired Emmanuel Mudiay, he'll still need to become more aggressive and learn to attack the rim to truly justify that high draft slot.

Those around the NBA who are bullish on Ntilikina believe in him primarily because they feel he can evolve into one of the game's top perimeter defenders. He has all the attributes teams look for in their desperate search for players flexible enough to keep up with today's space-and-pace game. As one league executive put it: "He fits the positionless basketball model that the league is adapting."

Too bad Frank is not as aggresive with the ball as you are hating on him!
In a league of ball hogs we got a kid that passes too much.
My eye test sees the kid in transition makes great passes on plays he could have taken it himself.
Like thats a bad thing? His job was to set everyone else up. That's what teenage pro's did in the Euroleague.
Just remember when the Frank Bandwagon is rolling down the street you can never get on. Never. We will kick your fingers if you try to climb on, pull your disguises off, and leave you to the wolves.
If he turns to be a bust, you can get on your soap box and say you were right. Im sure the room won't be crowded.

I'm fine with frank if he plays like we need him to play, that goes for every player on the roster.

Some people hated melo because he didn't play enough D, some people loved melo for his offensive abilities.

There's a role for anyone who's really good at one thing, as long as you have other players that compensate for what the other lacks.

If the knicks land Kyrie and Butler and burke and THJ take their game to another level..what happens with frank and mudiay?

What happens if we get Butler and Kyrie? AND Burke takes game to next level? Guess what, no money for Burke if you sign the other two. In your scenario Mudiay goes bye bye also. If he breaks out, then perhaps you don't get Butler. Time and space, you can't and don't keep everyone.
IN the End Frank rises from the ashes and kicks you from the bandwagon!

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

The first part of the bolded section is the thrust of what Im saying. If there is an opportunity to get better in the backcourt, and Frank still has a ways to go on offense, then Perry should go for it.

Disagree about the second part. Never did subscribe to the notion that if a player starts playing at another level several seasons down the road, that it was a mistake to trade them. For all we know it could be a change of scenery. city, coaches, teammates, that brought out a player's best.

I dont want to sell Frank for pennies on the dollar either. Ive commented negatively on trades involving Frank on this board that sold him short.

If it were to be several years than yea. If it was within the expected 3rd yr jump which is the league average for when players production drastically raise then no. And would strictly be attributed to lack of patience.

Frank is also a unique player. His PNR defense and switch ability is absolutely crucial for today's NBA. We KNOW that he will bring that aspect. We don't know how much that can effect the team when he matures though. These are abilities that not many teams can offer and may be something that forces the NBA to have to adapt to the Knicks. You don't seem to value this aspect at all.

I value 5 on 5 more than 4 on 5. Just want to see some progress next season on that front. Not asking a lot... back off man!!! LOL. We"ll see.what happens. Hope Frank shocks the world.

As we all would.

Frank was apart of 86% of the net positive lineups that the Knicks produced last season. It was with 14 different personnel groups if I remember correctly. With all different assortment of players. I've still yet to get an answer on how this is possible with him only averaging 6pts per game.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/11/17/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-kristaps-porzingis-nba/

The numbers are stunning, albeit in a small sample size. When Porzingis and Ntilikina have been on the floor together the Knicks are outscoring opponents by more than 40 points per 100 possessions. Despite only playing 85 minutes together, they have a better plus/minus than any other pair of players on the roster. Why? It’s simple. They play defense.

The Knicks have an infinitesimal defensive rating of 83.8 (points allowed per 100 possessions) when both those guys are in the game at the same time. Their combined 14- foot-plus wingspan and ability to get their hands on the ball makes it very difficult for opponents to operate their offense.

I'm getting giddy right now thinking about when we add in Knox & Mitch.

IMO if Frank is adding net positives when all said and done to the team like this(Which he was doing as a 19 yr old rookie). Then his offensive would be worth waiting for especially with his work ethic. If he stops offering net positive contributions meaning his overall contributions toward winning is taking a step back due to his lack of offense then sure. But don't get me wrong I still expect him to improve his offensive game. Just that if he is contributing on the level he is analytically without it. It may be worth waiting to see what he can offer once his offensive game becomes solid enough.

Between the data available as well as the knowledge of knowing what stopping the PNR and successful switch defense from the PG position means. This is what forms my support for Frank due to what it may potentially mean for the Knicks.

Is there a more current article regarding Frank? Mid November?

KP got injured. I do remember there being something put up when Burke and Frank played together toward the end of the season though. You may have even been the one to post it.

Him attributing to 86% of the Knicks net positive lineups is a whole season worth of data though.

But forget any of that for a second. Do you believe Franks ability to guard the pick and ability to successfully switch hold major value for the Knicks?

newyorknewyork wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

Not sure why. The bolded raised the possibility that Frank turns the corner on offense in the second half of his rookie deal.

The part you left out was where I said that there was some risk involved in giving him all 4 years to develop, as far as his trade value.

You're suggesting that Frank might have the same breakthrough in his third season as Payton. Payton had something that Frank might not have, an attitude. How many players in NBA history had the same motor, the same attitude as Payton? He was a bundle of energy. It was a big driver of his game.

If you're suggesting that Frank could make that same leap, also turn into a player with that same edge. Its possible, but unlikely.

GP says in the interview that he wasn't aggressive offensively his first two years. His shot wasn't effective and he didn't drive the ball. He had to build his confidence up piece by piece. The only thing he had any confidence in coming into the league was his defense. You don't see any parallels? You don't compete on D like Frank if you're soft lol

You called him soft, not me. My point was that the leap Payton took, the mindset to become the biggest trash talking player in the league, HOF talent, the definition of attitude. Frank might not posess. The odds are against it. Not that he couldnt improve at all.

If after 2 years Frank is more or less the same player on offense, he shouldnt be considered untouchable. Thats what Im getting from some posters here.

Majority of the players in the league have their largest jump in production when they enter their 3rd yr in league. While I see the trade him at a point where his value would still be real high due to unknown potential. Would matter the deal. There is no deal on the table to discuss. Actively shopping him would be a bad idea. If a team offered a deal we couldn't refuse then like mist players on the team it called a deal you can't refuse for a reason. Frank regardless offers necessary skills for a team in his ability to stop penetration and PNR as well as switch on defense successfully from the PG position. That alone would make him a valuable piece to hold on a winning team even if a role player. There is really no logical reason to trade him away unless it a no brainer offer. Especially with him on rookie scale and even as a role player would make role player money. And he could be paired with any guard. Like how successful the Burke-Frank combination was. Or the fact that the KP-Frank plus minus was pretty damn high.

I mean if you can capitalize on his unknown potential for something greater then it should obviously be entertained and possible made if it made sense. But at the same time would need to hope that he never reaches his potential in that case. Or would have Knicks messed up bad especially if they had to package him along with other assets.

The first part of the bolded section is the thrust of what Im saying. If there is an opportunity to get better in the backcourt, and Frank still has a ways to go on offense, then Perry should go for it.

Disagree about the second part. Never did subscribe to the notion that if a player starts playing at another level several seasons down the road, that it was a mistake to trade them. For all we know it could be a change of scenery. city, coaches, teammates, that brought out a player's best.

I dont want to sell Frank for pennies on the dollar either. Ive commented negatively on trades involving Frank on this board that sold him short.

If it were to be several years than yea. If it was within the expected 3rd yr jump which is the league average for when players production drastically raise then no. And would strictly be attributed to lack of patience.

Frank is also a unique player. His PNR defense and switch ability is absolutely crucial for today's NBA. We KNOW that he will bring that aspect. We don't know how much that can effect the team when he matures though. These are abilities that not many teams can offer and may be something that forces the NBA to have to adapt to the Knicks. You don't seem to value this aspect at all.

I value 5 on 5 more than 4 on 5. Just want to see some progress next season on that front. Not asking a lot... back off man!!! LOL. We"ll see.what happens. Hope Frank shocks the world.

As we all would.

Frank was apart of 86% of the net positive lineups that the Knicks produced last season. It was with 14 different personnel groups if I remember correctly. With all different assortment of players. I've still yet to get an answer on how this is possible with him only averaging 6pts per game.

https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2017/11/17/new-york-knicks-frank-ntilikina-kristaps-porzingis-nba/

The numbers are stunning, albeit in a small sample size. When Porzingis and Ntilikina have been on the floor together the Knicks are outscoring opponents by more than 40 points per 100 possessions. Despite only playing 85 minutes together, they have a better plus/minus than any other pair of players on the roster. Why? It’s simple. They play defense.

The Knicks have an infinitesimal defensive rating of 83.8 (points allowed per 100 possessions) when both those guys are in the game at the same time. Their combined 14- foot-plus wingspan and ability to get their hands on the ball makes it very difficult for opponents to operate their offense.

I'm getting giddy right now thinking about when we add in Knox & Mitch.

IMO if Frank is adding net positives when all said and done to the team like this(Which he was doing as a 19 yr old rookie). Then his offensive would be worth waiting for especially with his work ethic. If he stops offering net positive contributions meaning his overall contributions toward winning is taking a step back due to his lack of offense then sure. But don't get me wrong I still expect him to improve his offensive game. Just that if he is contributing on the level he is analytically without it. It may be worth waiting to see what he can offer once his offensive game becomes solid enough.

Between the data available as well as the knowledge of knowing what stopping the PNR and successful switch defense from the PG position means. This is what forms my support for Frank due to what it may potentially mean for the Knicks.

Is there a more current article regarding Frank? Mid November?

KP got injured. I do remember there being something put up when Burke and Frank played together toward the end of the season though. You may have even been the one to post it.

Him attributing to 86% of the Knicks net positive lineups is a whole season worth of data though.

But forget any of that for a second. Do you believe Franks ability to guard the pick and ability to successfully switch hold major value for the Knicks?

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

How does GP's development relate to franks? they're back rounds are nothing a like

They're both lottery picks who came into the league with games centered around defense. They also had to develop their offensive games. GP said he had to learn how to use his body to take advantage of smaller points. He also said he had to develop the confidence to become more agressive. Isn't that the same Brickley said he's working on with Frank?

Gary Payton averaged 25 pts per senior year in college....He had more of an offensive background than Frank did when he was drafted.

BigDaddyG wrote:

Uptown wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

martin wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Was saying the cutoff was the end of Frank's second season. If he's still essentially the same player on offense. Its likely if there is a real change in his game, its going to take all 4 years. If it happens at all.

Weird to have that opinion when just a few posts up is Gary Payton, describing how at 22 it took him 2 years before he figured out his offensive game and how pathetic it was during his first 2.

How does GP's development relate to franks? they're back rounds are nothing a like

They're both lottery picks who came into the league with games centered around defense. They also had to develop their offensive games. GP said he had to learn how to use his body to take advantage of smaller points. He also said he had to develop the confidence to become more agressive. Isn't that the same Brickley said he's working on with Frank?

Gary Payton averaged 25 pts per senior year in college....He had more of an offensive background than Frank did when he was drafted.

Frank avg. was like 20 something in the Final U18 euro tournament. You know how that's similar to GP's average in college? Both stats weren't accumulated in the NBA. GP's avg in his rookie year was similar to Frank's. And GP was like 3 years older. GP says it in the interview. He was afraid to drive and he couldn't shoot in his first few years in the NBA.

Frank averaged 1.4 pts per in 2015-16 season in Europe and 5.2 pts per in 2016-2017. Those numbers and a comment from a teammate that implied that Frank will not shoot the ball much suggests that he doesn't have a scorers mentality.

I heard what Payton said about improving in the NBA, but his makeup and background are different than Franks. Payton was a star in highschool, Freshman of the year in the Pac ten, and during his senior year, he was one of the top 2 or 3 players in the country. Payton showed that he could get buckets in high school and in college so the talent and the scorer's mentality was always there. Frank never put up offensive numbers like that, so the odds are against him to put up numbers like Payton.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/frank-ntilikina-1.html