newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

wargames wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:If not for Phil this team would not have gotten the wheel turning. Now it’s up to Mills to complete the direction that Phil set the team on.

The firing of Grunwald and hiring of Mills after the MCkinsey study employed by MSG and affiliates was at the turning point.
Dolan instinctively starphuchs and the attraction to phil to hand the keys was a good idea, but it did not work. Mills is capable given his back ground.
Regardless of past regressions the team is now engaged in a proper rebuild. Does that mean we are on the upswing? Record wise that is not a given. We have accumulated some blue chip talent and very young ones at that.
Phil tried to build on top of a core of Melo, Rose and Noah. It was a decision that did not work.
Knicks stunning FO rebuild in 12 months!

Talking about the Mckinsey study, I would love to see the results. I remember when it was going down I thought it was pointless cause Basketball isn't a direct correlation to business. However, Dolan did take a major step back afterwards by first initially giving the keys to Phil and eventually Mills. So if that was the advice...... I am legit impressed.

Results Rangers are rebuilding as are the knicks. Gone is starphuching. Dolan got to see the light and stepped back. Im guessing this was not easy and he was seduced by Phil's potential. I think Cablevision and its vast size required he do it.
Mills, Fiz, and Perry don't have the gaudy cred that was always a stable in a starphuch hire.

Is Starphucking" really gone? Seems alive and well with all the teams that are competing year after year. Think its a matter of getting the RIGHT "Starphucks" Think teams like Miami, GS, Cavs, Houston have showed the blueprint. Get lucky with a lottery pick that turns into an All Star and then surround them with 2 or 3 more ALL Stars around him to create a Super Team and then hope that attracts solid vets, chasing a ring, to join you for free.

Fact is, we are in just the first phase. I dont think we will ever do it with solely draft picks. We will have to Starphuck a few more times. Just hope we pick the right ones.

Agree with the point about Phil. He was just another Dolan Starphuck. But more importantly, he was the WRONG one. He was a name from the past still living there. Him and his system was never one which anyone, with a vision of the future and knowledge of the current NBA, would have picked.

you dont understand the concept of starphucking or at least how he's reffering to it. The elite teams have elite talent and pay it elite wages. Thats biz as usual. Starphucking is when you bring in an would be elite player, and peddle him to a fanbase as the building block of a great team. For the Knicks its been about replacing Ewing. It started with overpaying Houston thinking he would be that guy. Then it continued with Marbury. It continued again with Melo. The point (as you mentioned) we seem to have moved on from the savior starphucking mentality and are growing our own.

My point was (and I think yours as well) is that Starphucking is only a concept that is created when a team brings, signs the "wrong" guy. A concept only recognized in retrospect. In order for any team to get to the next level they have to take a chance on an elite free agent. Harden could have been a Starphuck but he was not. LBJ could have been in Miami but he was not. Why, because they had/have success. Houston was paid as the best player on the team and was unlucky to have injuries. Melo was brought in at the wrong time, as we gave up too many assets, but we did eventually have success with Melo in 2012. The true starphuck was Phil. Just a name that Dolan thought had some kind of magic. He decided to scrap the team built around Melo and I think Melo in general, yet signed him to a Max contract. He failed to sign anyone with talent and had no characteristics of a good Prez.

But back to the point. Perry is doing a great job. Has a clear vision. Has a plan he is sticking to. Has hired the right person for his goals. Has signed, drafted the right players. However, the Knicks (Teams that truly wish to compete} will have to take a chance on a Max free agent yet again. Unless they plan on tanking for the next three years and hope all their draft picks are winners, stay healthy and resign. It will happen and I hope they get lucky and get the right one.

Knicks problem with starphucking has been they never had any real tangible plan behind it.

Isiah added Marbury who was one of the best penetrating pnr pgs in the NBA. And yet surrounded him with multiple lane clogging bigs. He had his best moments with Doleac, Kurt Thomas & KVH because they could all shoot and space the floor for his penetration.

We added Larry Brown who craves defense but hardly surrounded him with defensive pieces.
We added MDA who craves a PG yet didn't get him one for like the first 3 yrs coaching the team.
We added Amare without insurance and major healthy risk due to desperation, then added Melo whose game didn't even fit with Amare's or with the coach of the team.

Phil was a starphuch and the last necessary failed straw for Dolan to full concede. The pieces built around Melo that Phil traded away weren't all that though. And Knicks didn't have 2 first round draft picks out of the next 3 up coming drafts when he was brought in. Tyson got dumped by Dallas the yr after and has been an afterthought. Felton hasn't been relevent, Shumpert's career will probably be over after his contract expires. Jr Smith has only remained relevant due to Lebron James. Dumping these players wasn't the issue. The issue was not going full rebuild and asset collection. Dumping Tyson for space and pick. Seeing if he can work out a S&T with Melo for assets. Using the space from when Amare & Bargs came off the books to eat short term contracts for more picks. Build up the asset base. Then with the overflow of assets package some of that for your proven talent while still having the house money to draft more young talent. The past few yrs would have been just as ugly but with more gained on the back end.

The plan today should be to land a 2019 lotto pick, A stud FA, then package Hardaway jr & a 2020 pick(with some protections) to land a 3rd blue chip talent. To ADD onto the collection of KP, Frank, Knox, Mitch. With the 3 premium assets added complimenting the style and attributes of the pieces already place.

Good points. Agree with most and what the plan should be. Although I agree the team Phil broke up was not "all that" it was a group that was one year removed from our best season in many years. And like you mentioned, Phil did not have a plan on how to dump those players or a true long term outlook. His only plan seemed to be what he was going to do with Dolans money and how he could resurrect the Triangle. But like you said, the Knicks have made many mistakes. Reason for years of dysfunction. Important thing now is that Perry seems to have a plan. Will it work? Who knows, but seems like at least its a decent plan and he has been consistent sticking to it.

newyorknewyork wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

Nalod wrote:

wargames wrote:

Nalod wrote:

Vmart wrote:If not for Phil this team would not have gotten the wheel turning. Now it’s up to Mills to complete the direction that Phil set the team on.

The firing of Grunwald and hiring of Mills after the MCkinsey study employed by MSG and affiliates was at the turning point.
Dolan instinctively starphuchs and the attraction to phil to hand the keys was a good idea, but it did not work. Mills is capable given his back ground.
Regardless of past regressions the team is now engaged in a proper rebuild. Does that mean we are on the upswing? Record wise that is not a given. We have accumulated some blue chip talent and very young ones at that.
Phil tried to build on top of a core of Melo, Rose and Noah. It was a decision that did not work.
Knicks stunning FO rebuild in 12 months!

Talking about the Mckinsey study, I would love to see the results. I remember when it was going down I thought it was pointless cause Basketball isn't a direct correlation to business. However, Dolan did take a major step back afterwards by first initially giving the keys to Phil and eventually Mills. So if that was the advice...... I am legit impressed.

Results Rangers are rebuilding as are the knicks. Gone is starphuching. Dolan got to see the light and stepped back. Im guessing this was not easy and he was seduced by Phil's potential. I think Cablevision and its vast size required he do it.
Mills, Fiz, and Perry don't have the gaudy cred that was always a stable in a starphuch hire.

Is Starphucking" really gone? Seems alive and well with all the teams that are competing year after year. Think its a matter of getting the RIGHT "Starphucks" Think teams like Miami, GS, Cavs, Houston have showed the blueprint. Get lucky with a lottery pick that turns into an All Star and then surround them with 2 or 3 more ALL Stars around him to create a Super Team and then hope that attracts solid vets, chasing a ring, to join you for free.

Fact is, we are in just the first phase. I dont think we will ever do it with solely draft picks. We will have to Starphuck a few more times. Just hope we pick the right ones.

Agree with the point about Phil. He was just another Dolan Starphuck. But more importantly, he was the WRONG one. He was a name from the past still living there. Him and his system was never one which anyone, with a vision of the future and knowledge of the current NBA, would have picked.

you dont understand the concept of starphucking or at least how he's reffering to it. The elite teams have elite talent and pay it elite wages. Thats biz as usual. Starphucking is when you bring in an would be elite player, and peddle him to a fanbase as the building block of a great team. For the Knicks its been about replacing Ewing. It started with overpaying Houston thinking he would be that guy. Then it continued with Marbury. It continued again with Melo. The point (as you mentioned) we seem to have moved on from the savior starphucking mentality and are growing our own.

My point was (and I think yours as well) is that Starphucking is only a concept that is created when a team brings, signs the "wrong" guy. A concept only recognized in retrospect. In order for any team to get to the next level they have to take a chance on an elite free agent. Harden could have been a Starphuck but he was not. LBJ could have been in Miami but he was not. Why, because they had/have success. Houston was paid as the best player on the team and was unlucky to have injuries. Melo was brought in at the wrong time, as we gave up too many assets, but we did eventually have success with Melo in 2012. The true starphuck was Phil. Just a name that Dolan thought had some kind of magic. He decided to scrap the team built around Melo and I think Melo in general, yet signed him to a Max contract. He failed to sign anyone with talent and had no characteristics of a good Prez.

But back to the point. Perry is doing a great job. Has a clear vision. Has a plan he is sticking to. Has hired the right person for his goals. Has signed, drafted the right players. However, the Knicks (Teams that truly wish to compete} will have to take a chance on a Max free agent yet again. Unless they plan on tanking for the next three years and hope all their draft picks are winners, stay healthy and resign. It will happen and I hope they get lucky and get the right one.

Knicks problem with starphucking has been they never had any real tangible plan behind it.

Isiah added Marbury who was one of the best penetrating pnr pgs in the NBA. And yet surrounded him with multiple lane clogging bigs. He had his best moments with Doleac, Kurt Thomas & KVH because they could all shoot and space the floor for his penetration.

We added Larry Brown who craves defense but hardly surrounded him with defensive pieces.
We added MDA who craves a PG yet didn't get him one for like the first 3 yrs coaching the team.
We added Amare without insurance and major healthy risk due to desperation, then added Melo whose game didn't even fit with Amare's or with the coach of the team.

Phil was a starphuch and the last necessary failed straw for Dolan to full concede. The pieces built around Melo that Phil traded away weren't all that though. And Knicks didn't have 2 first round draft picks out of the next 3 up coming drafts when he was brought in. Tyson got dumped by Dallas the yr after and has been an afterthought. Felton hasn't been relevent, Shumpert's career will probably be over after his contract expires. Jr Smith has only remained relevant due to Lebron James. Dumping these players wasn't the issue. The issue was not going full rebuild and asset collection. Dumping Tyson for space and pick. Seeing if he can work out a S&T with Melo for assets. Using the space from when Amare & Bargs came off the books to eat short term contracts for more picks. Build up the asset base. Then with the overflow of assets package some of that for your proven talent while still having the house money to draft more young talent. The past few yrs would have been just as ugly but with more gained on the back end.

The plan today should be to land a 2019 lotto pick, A stud FA, then package Hardaway jr & a 2020 pick(with some protections) to land a 3rd blue chip talent. To ADD onto the collection of KP, Frank, Knox, Mitch. With the 3 premium assets added complimenting the style and attributes of the pieces already place.

as the chief resident Starphuchologist of the UK your depiction is very good.
The very fact we hav not dumped Noah at a high price is evidence of a new patient era. either he can prove himself on the court or let the months drip on by. To dump him with an asset is short oriented.
PHil is gone. I get what he tried to do and he failed. He was “Made gone”. No big fancy name to replace him.