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Woj: Kawhi to Raptors being finalized
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djsunyc
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7/18/2018  10:59 PM
ujiri also got cash in the deal

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martin
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7/18/2018  11:02 PM
djsunyc wrote:ujiri also got cash in the deal

Damn, Ujiri is indeed a master. What the hell are the Spurs doing over there, it's like they were held over a barrel

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TripleThreat
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7/19/2018  12:32 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors.


They are also trading for his Bird Rights. I'm not looking at the hard numbers now, but the difference in offers would mean leaving 50+ million plus another year on his contract on the table if he walked from Toronto as a street free agent.

From what I'm hearing, some of the sticking points between Leonard's camp and the Lakers were

- Dennis Robertson , the uncle, wanted a guarantee that any difference between the Spurs supermax and what he signed with the Lakers for would be equalized out by a Nike contract ( LBJ has that kind of pull to make that happen) Would be a violation of the cap but has been done before in NBA history.

- Dennis Robertson, the uncle, wanted a piece of Klutch Sports, i.e. a minority ownership stake.

Jmpasq
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7/19/2018  5:23 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors.


They are also trading for his Bird Rights. I'm not looking at the hard numbers now, but the difference in offers would mean leaving 50+ million plus another year on his contract on the table if he walked from Toronto as a street free agent.

From what I'm hearing, some of the sticking points between Leonard's camp and the Lakers were

- Dennis Robertson , the uncle, wanted a guarantee that any difference between the Spurs supermax and what he signed with the Lakers for would be equalized out by a Nike contract ( LBJ has that kind of pull to make that happen) Would be a violation of the cap but has been done before in NBA history.

- Dennis Robertson, the uncle, wanted a piece of Klutch Sports, i.e. a minority ownership stake.

We better not sign Leonard. This level of diva even surpasses Lebron and Melo.

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djsunyc
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7/19/2018  11:29 AM
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors. They drafted Derozan and should have had him play a 17 yr career or so with them and have him retire a Raptor. He wanted to be there and has helped turn the Raptors into a continual playoff team over the last 6 years. They need to have those type of players/careers under their banner and build up that level of credibility. They are operating as if they are on Boston or LAs level without the history they have.

Spurs - They need to go all in on obtaining Jimmy Butler. Say LMA & Mills for Butler & Dieng.

Would make a ton of sense for both teams.

you don't like it from a loyalty standpoint?

what about from a basketball standpoint?

djsunyc
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7/19/2018  11:34 AM    LAST EDITED: 7/19/2018  11:35 AM
what i don't really like right now is that the media narrative is heavily slanted to the players POV. all the espn/fs1 shows have former players and no execs. players can tweet all they want w/ no reprecussions. if any exec says anything, it's tampering.

and then they pick and choose what to attack.

media - raptors aren't good enough. they are fake contenders. they choke. made two bold moves in firing casey and trading derozan and now it's about loyalty.

meanwhile where were the player tweets when kawhi sat an entire year or when paul george forced his way out of indy? or the horror of the clippers trading blake? ainge and west don't get the hate and now ujiri does?

BigDaddyG
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7/19/2018  11:53 AM
djsunyc wrote:what i don't really like right now is that the media narrative is heavily slanted to the players POV. all the espn/fs1 shows have former players and no execs. players can tweet all they want w/ no reprecussions. if any exec says anything, it's tampering.

and then they pick and choose what to attack.

media - raptors aren't good enough. they are fake contenders. they choke. made two bold moves in firing casey and trading derozan and now it's about loyalty.

meanwhile where were the player tweets when kawhi sat an entire year or when paul george forced his way out of indy? or the horror of the clippers trading blake? ainge and west don't get the hate and now ujiri does?


The Blake narrative was out there for a while. It just happened during the season, so it easily got swept under the rug. This is one of the slowest periods of the year in sports, so a deal like this is receiving 10x the amount of scrutiny. Most of the analysis I've seen gives the trade a passing grade for both sides.
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CrushAlot
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7/19/2018  11:57 AM
djsunyc wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors. They drafted Derozan and should have had him play a 17 yr career or so with them and have him retire a Raptor. He wanted to be there and has helped turn the Raptors into a continual playoff team over the last 6 years. They need to have those type of players/careers under their banner and build up that level of credibility. They are operating as if they are on Boston or LAs level without the history they have.

Spurs - They need to go all in on obtaining Jimmy Butler. Say LMA & Mills for Butler & Dieng.

Would make a ton of sense for both teams.

you don't like it from a loyalty standpoint?

what about from a basketball standpoint?

It was a great move from a basketball standpoint. The Raptors got the better player and should be favorites in the east if Kawhi is healthy. Derozan also re-upped for 5 years last summer. Getting off of that type of contract also can be a plus. But, I don't think Kawhi stays. If Lowry was expiring after next year it would be a better deal. I don't think they will be able to get out of paying Lowry 33 mil when he is 34 but after that they should be in better shape cap wise.
I am not sure I agree that firing Casey was a bold move. I know Ujiri didn't hire Casey. Was the move made with another coach in mind or did Ujiri just want to move on?
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newyorknewyork
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7/19/2018  12:36 PM
djsunyc wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors. They drafted Derozan and should have had him play a 17 yr career or so with them and have him retire a Raptor. He wanted to be there and has helped turn the Raptors into a continual playoff team over the last 6 years. They need to have those type of players/careers under their banner and build up that level of credibility. They are operating as if they are on Boston or LAs level without the history they have.

Spurs - They need to go all in on obtaining Jimmy Butler. Say LMA & Mills for Butler & Dieng.

Would make a ton of sense for both teams.

you don't like it from a loyalty standpoint?

what about from a basketball standpoint?

I believe my view on their loyalty is very bball related. I don't feel they are at the point where they can flat out lure FAs to come there. Maybe im wrong but they don't have that history.

The Raptors franchise started in 1993. Carter, Bosh, Derozan are the 3 all time great Raptors. Carter forced his way out after 6 yrs. Bosh left them after 7yrs. Its good for franchises to have those 15 yr career players who stay with the team and get their jersey retired and go to the hall of fame. Shows that the players get taken care of over there and they need that perception.

From a pure bball perspective. The only way to judge this would be based off of the results. Does Kwahi get them to the finals? Does Kwahi sign a long term deal? Kwahi leaves they take a major step back and lose out on their 2019 draft pick. So the question is would taking this gamble and potentially have to tear it all down be worth having stable success with Derozan locked in? This is the type of move that Masai can get fired from 1-2 yrs from now.

Delon Wright can be a huge sleeper given the opportunity though.

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djsunyc
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7/19/2018  2:38 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/19/2018  2:39 PM
finally a former exec's analysis:

https://streamable.com/ypatz

djsunyc
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7/19/2018  2:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/19/2018  2:59 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors. They drafted Derozan and should have had him play a 17 yr career or so with them and have him retire a Raptor. He wanted to be there and has helped turn the Raptors into a continual playoff team over the last 6 years. They need to have those type of players/careers under their banner and build up that level of credibility. They are operating as if they are on Boston or LAs level without the history they have.

Spurs - They need to go all in on obtaining Jimmy Butler. Say LMA & Mills for Butler & Dieng.

Would make a ton of sense for both teams.

you don't like it from a loyalty standpoint?

what about from a basketball standpoint?

I believe my view on their loyalty is very bball related. I don't feel they are at the point where they can flat out lure FAs to come there. Maybe im wrong but they don't have that history.

The Raptors franchise started in 1993. Carter, Bosh, Derozan are the 3 all time great Raptors. Carter forced his way out after 6 yrs. Bosh left them after 7yrs. Its good for franchises to have those 15 yr career players who stay with the team and get their jersey retired and go to the hall of fame. Shows that the players get taken care of over there and they need that perception.

From a pure bball perspective. The only way to judge this would be based off of the results. Does Kwahi get them to the finals? Does Kwahi sign a long term deal? Kwahi leaves they take a major step back and lose out on their 2019 draft pick. So the question is would taking this gamble and potentially have to tear it all down be worth having stable success with Derozan locked in? This is the type of move that Masai can get fired from 1-2 yrs from now.

Delon Wright can be a huge sleeper given the opportunity though.

i don't agree. for a franchise unable to sign mega fa's...well we just traded for one. isn't that the objective - to try an get better any way possible? morey and ainge have no qualms making major changes to get better. why should ujiri be penalized just b/c it's "toronto"?

whether he stays or not is another story but we just acquired a top 5 nba player. i think perception only matters if you are run like a sh tty org. ujiri has mad respect around the league - the guy is in africa right now changing lives and countries with obama. he has all the nba big wigs support his cause in toronto yearly. agents love him and he's pretty straight forward with players. so i dont see this having any negative effect for them. i think this is initial hurt feeling reaction that will die down soon enough.

when we almost dealt lowry to ny, derozan told the press that he would request a deal b/c he didn't want to be a part of a rebuilding situation. it's a two way street and it's a business.

i don't think people realize just how much of a talent upgrade this is. casual fans that don't follow toronto closely will think dd is like 80% of the player kawhi is...but in reality, he's more like 50-60% the player he is. ujiri is one of the safest gm's in the biz. mlse would've blocked this deal if they cared so much about the loyalty aspect.

this is a big market transaction.

djsunyc
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7/19/2018  2:50 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors. They drafted Derozan and should have had him play a 17 yr career or so with them and have him retire a Raptor. He wanted to be there and has helped turn the Raptors into a continual playoff team over the last 6 years. They need to have those type of players/careers under their banner and build up that level of credibility. They are operating as if they are on Boston or LAs level without the history they have.

Spurs - They need to go all in on obtaining Jimmy Butler. Say LMA & Mills for Butler & Dieng.

Would make a ton of sense for both teams.

you don't like it from a loyalty standpoint?

what about from a basketball standpoint?

It was a great move from a basketball standpoint. The Raptors got the better player and should be favorites in the east if Kawhi is healthy. Derozan also re-upped for 5 years last summer. Getting off of that type of contract also can be a plus. But, I don't think Kawhi stays. If Lowry was expiring after next year it would be a better deal. I don't think they will be able to get out of paying Lowry 33 mil when he is 34 but after that they should be in better shape cap wise.
I am not sure I agree that firing Casey was a bold move. I know Ujiri didn't hire Casey. Was the move made with another coach in mind or did Ujiri just want to move on?

while ujiri didn't hire casey - he extended his contract twice.

also, he didn't draft derozan but gave him his $137 mil deal.

CrushAlot
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7/19/2018  3:20 PM
I'm tired,I'm tired, I'm so tired right now......Kristaps Porzingis 1/3/18
djsunyc
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7/19/2018  3:49 PM
this trade is 100% proof positive that there is a real anti-canada anti-raptor sentiment with the media.

but the memes are pretty funny tho.

CrushAlot
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7/19/2018  4:05 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/19/2018  4:08 PM
It’s now 2017, have things changed? For starters, the Prime Minister of Canada has wielded his tax sword and raised rates in Canada by 4%. At the same time, there is a new Commander-in-Chief running the United States, and while cuts to Medicare and personal tax rates seem to be his personal goal, it has yet to be seen what will result.

We will again assume that our basketball star will remain a resident of the United States for tax purposes. Most players will leave significant ties back home in the United States and will be able to be considered a resident of the United States for income tax purposes as they return home during the off-season.

For 2017, we analyze the possibility of signing a $24M contract with the Raptors, Spurs (Texas), 76ers (Pennsylvania) and Warriors/Lakers (California), using the tax rate landscape as we know it today.

A few reminders on how U.S. resident athletes are taxed in Canada:

Players are only taxed in Canada on their employment income in Canada. For the Raptors, this means that only their home games are subject to the Canadian tax regime. Therefore, any difference in tax rates (i.e., Canada’s top rate of tax of 53.5% versus 39.6% Federal, plus state) is limited to only the days spent employed in Canada. Last season, the Raptors spent roughly 67% of their service time in Canada. Therefore, the remaining 33% of games would be taxed similarly regardless of the team the player played on.
Canada still does not allow most deductions from employment expenses (i.e., agent fees and training costs that are allowable deductions in the United States) further exacerbating the tax gap.
A player will sign for their maximum bonus under the collective bargaining agreement (“CBA”). Based on the tax treaty between Canada and the United States, Canada can only tax signing bonuses at a maximum rate of 15%. Therefore, to the extent any income is subject to a maximum of 15% tax in Canada, a player will receive a full credit against their U.S. taxes for this income thus placing them in no worse off position by playing in Canada.
We have not examined the impact of other cost savings possibilities like retirement compensation arrangements (“RCAs”). The National Hockey League and Major League Baseball currently allow players to take advantage of these arrangements. However, the National Basketball Association (“NBA”) currently prohibits the use of these retirement vehicles.
Using all these factors we came to the following conclusions:

From a tax perspective, states with no income tax (i.e., Texas) will yield the lowest overall tax result (approx. $10.5M)
Playing in Ontario is now the worst ($11.5M), followed closely by California ($11.25M) and then Pennsylvania ($10.8M)
So, there you have it. In 2015 when we last examined the numbers, a player would be virtually indifferent playing in New York or California versus Toronto. From an income tax perspective, Toronto is now the worst place to play in the NBA, with a gap of approximately 4% between teams with home games in cities with no state or city tax. Further, if the Republicans are successful in lowering personal and Medicare taxes in the United States, that gap may grow significantly higher.

Therefore, it is important that teams in Canada use whatever tax saving vehicles may be available to their players to ensure their tax bills remain as low as possible. This includes planning to ensure they retain United States residency and the maximization of signing bonuses. From an NBA perspective, the Raptors still hold an advantage in retaining their own players since the CBA allows retaining teams to pay their players larger amounts for longer terms. However in an open field competition for free agents, the Raptors are at a tax disadvantage. So, when Jalen Rose of ESPN argues that players won’t want to play in Canada because, “They have to pay Uncle Sam AND the Queen,” sadly, the numbers now support his argument.

This article has been prepared for the general information of our clients. Specific professional advice should be obtained prior to the implementation of any suggestion contained in this article.

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https://crowesoberman.com/blog/american-athletes-pay-more-toronto/?utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=View-Original
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newyorknewyork
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7/19/2018  4:19 PM
djsunyc wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
djsunyc wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:I don't like it for the Raptors. They drafted Derozan and should have had him play a 17 yr career or so with them and have him retire a Raptor. He wanted to be there and has helped turn the Raptors into a continual playoff team over the last 6 years. They need to have those type of players/careers under their banner and build up that level of credibility. They are operating as if they are on Boston or LAs level without the history they have.

Spurs - They need to go all in on obtaining Jimmy Butler. Say LMA & Mills for Butler & Dieng.

Would make a ton of sense for both teams.

you don't like it from a loyalty standpoint?

what about from a basketball standpoint?

I believe my view on their loyalty is very bball related. I don't feel they are at the point where they can flat out lure FAs to come there. Maybe im wrong but they don't have that history.

The Raptors franchise started in 1993. Carter, Bosh, Derozan are the 3 all time great Raptors. Carter forced his way out after 6 yrs. Bosh left them after 7yrs. Its good for franchises to have those 15 yr career players who stay with the team and get their jersey retired and go to the hall of fame. Shows that the players get taken care of over there and they need that perception.

From a pure bball perspective. The only way to judge this would be based off of the results. Does Kwahi get them to the finals? Does Kwahi sign a long term deal? Kwahi leaves they take a major step back and lose out on their 2019 draft pick. So the question is would taking this gamble and potentially have to tear it all down be worth having stable success with Derozan locked in? This is the type of move that Masai can get fired from 1-2 yrs from now.

Delon Wright can be a huge sleeper given the opportunity though.

i don't agree. for a franchise unable to sign mega fa's...well we just traded for one. isn't that the objective - to try an get better any way possible? morey and ainge have no qualms making major changes to get better. why should ujiri be penalized just b/c it's "toronto"?

whether he stays or not is another story but we just acquired a top 5 nba player. i think perception only matters if you are run like a sh tty org. ujiri has mad respect around the league - the guy is in africa right now changing lives and countries with obama. he has all the nba big wigs support his cause in toronto yearly. agents love him and he's pretty straight forward with players. so i dont see this having any negative effect for them. i think this is initial hurt feeling reaction that will die down soon enough.

when we almost dealt lowry to ny, derozan told the press that he would request a deal b/c he didn't want to be a part of a rebuilding situation. it's a two way street and it's a business.

i don't think people realize just how much of a talent upgrade this is. casual fans that don't follow toronto closely will think dd is like 80% of the player kawhi is...but in reality, he's more like 50-60% the player he is. ujiri is one of the safest gm's in the biz. mlse would've blocked this deal if they cared so much about the loyalty aspect.

this is a big market transaction.

But is giving up DD and the first worth the high probability of a 1 yr rental from Kwahi? And he is also so unpredictable. He could even sit out the year. The loyalty aspect isn't just that they should keep DD no matter what. But if Kwahi as expected leaves to sign somewhere else, they practically threw DD away and gave up a first and another prospect to dump him as if he was a Noah level cap eating scrub. If they wanted to get rid of him and his salary they could have netted long term assets for him.

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djsunyc
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7/19/2018  5:04 PM
kawhi is going to play for the raptors next year.

kawhi also has more trade value to LA than derozan.

and yes, i will gladly trade away 3 years of dd for 1 year of kawhi. we went as far as we could with him. have to take another shot. calculated gamble.

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7/19/2018  5:39 PM    LAST EDITED: 7/19/2018  5:46 PM
we love to grade trades and beat it to death before a minute is played.
I totally see both sides to the trade and agree with Raptors view.
The loyalty thing is overblown. Players have guaranteed contracts and home team pays better. DD is a good dude and he'll be fine in SA. Its not like he was traded to Milwaukee or Detroit.
As for Leonard, his brand is pretty bad now and it was not all that good to begin with. Kid is kind of a dull personality and was not exactly selling a lot of cell phones to begin with. He will play and restore his career. Toronto is fine with dumping DD's contract is the worst outcome for them. I kind of like the move.
TripleThreat
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7/19/2018  9:53 PM
djsunyc wrote:this trade is 100% proof positive that there is a real anti-canada anti-raptor sentiment with the media.

but the memes are pretty funny tho.

I doubt it.

Two things are going on

A) Kawhi Leonard's camp is putting stuff out into the press. The more the discussion is on the Raptors and their "disloyalty", the more the focus shifts away from Leonard.

B) Controversy sell, but more than that, media pundits want to keep their access to the players. So they become a mouthpiece for the player's griping.

Consider this, right after The Malice In The Palace, every ESPN analyst defended the players. ( If they said anything other than total support, they would have lost access to all the players in interviews, etc, etc) David Stern apparently went beserk when this happened, because it looked like an open sanction of what the Pacers/Artest did.

No one hates Canada.

Agents actually try to groundswell and instigate ill will towards the Raptors, because a player going there forces them to add staff/analysts to negotiate the differences from the US in terms of taxes, etc, etc. You essentially need to build a satellite unit to handle just the Raptors players you have. Also the media operates much differently than the US media.

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7/20/2018  6:20 PM
So the Raptors apologized to DeRozan for a “miscommunication.” He then went on and called himself loyal, like a WWE heel. They basically know they look like complete arsholes for this move. I say this and I am a huge believer that loyalty and business DO NOT mix. However, he made a promise to DeRozan and broke it a week or 2 later. If you aren’t loyal, that’s fine. Don’t hide it. Just say the truth. “We made a promise but hey, things happen. Toodles.”

“Whenever I’m about to do something, I think ‘Would an idiot do that?’ and if they would, I do NOT do that thing.”- Dwight Schrute
Woj: Kawhi to Raptors being finalized

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