reub wrote:

Nalod wrote:This is an interesting concept. I would not throw in Mudiay as he might be "fixable".
I do think we undervalue THjr because of Mills. This is a kid who put up 48 pts and the knicks became a mess. Timmy does not know how to be a first option and forces too much.
He is paid a fair wage but I understand knick fans won't see that.
This only makes sense if we have a strong resolve on a certain player. Is parsons that cooked?

You wouldn't throw in the worst PG in the league? Maybe one of the worst in history?

I give him a year. This is about development not dump.

TripleThreat wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:In normal cases yea. But in this draft I don't feel the drop off is drastic from 4-9. The fact that Memphis would entertain moving the pick shows you that they aren't looking for the next player to move forward with the franchise.

Nothing you are saying is supported by the current NBA marketplace and nothing within the bounds of modern NBA trade/draft history.

The reason Memphis is talking trade is because

A) It cost them nothing to put that out there.
B) Tier 1 right now is Ayton and Doncic, Bamba might push up into Tier 1 for positional value and upside. This would make the Memphis pick the start of Tier 2. They'll have a much harder time trying to trade the 4th pick, which is why THEY ARE OPEN TO TRADING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

A huge IF, IF the Grizzlies wanted to move the 4th overall, they could get more than the 9th and Hardaway Jr in value. Any trade offer has to be the best one out of all other 28 teams in the league in play for Player X or Draft Pick Y. The "best" not just for the Knicks, but also for the non Knicks team.

Until Tier 1 stabilizes ( Will Bamba push into it or not), none of the other Tiers are defined. Until then, there are too many variables to say the drop off is not that drastic. 4 to 9 is a long long long way. Want proof? In modern NBA history, how many trades have you seen where picks in those ranges are moved for each other with players involved?

This scenario fail the Mirror Test. Would you want the Knicks to trade the 4th overall to dump Parsons and take in the 9 and Tim Hardaway Jr? Would you? Then why should Memphis. The same reason you want to get rid of THJr is the EXACT SAME REASON NO OTHER TEAM WILL WANT HIM. In the varied Lee and Lance Thomas trade scenarios on this board, no one seems to want to address that. The desire of some Knicks fan to dump those players in trades is the SAME REASON no other NBA team would want to move a positive asset for them.

You are trying to defend a trade you would not want the Knicks to take if the situation were reversed. What does that tell you?

You are mistaken. I would strongly consider the deal if the roles were reversed. Saying I would not want the Knicks to make that deal isn't accurate. Obviously Memphis has waay more intel then I do to make a more informed decision. But what other teams are taking Parsons contract and replacing it with a Hardaway jr while also offering a top 10 lottery pick? They are moving down in tier in a pretty deep lottery in order to upgrade from $50mil in dead weight which you seem to be leaving out. Seemingly interested in one last push out of their aging stars over rebuilding. They could trade that #4 for a stud that's still on a rookie contract. But what studs are available on rookie deal that plays between 2-4? Any other deal for an established veteran on a higher salary forces them to lose value by having to add Parsons.

Being able to still net a top 10 lottery pick as well as upgrade from Parsons given the specific situation and not a generic outlook is a pretty good deal for them Imo. That is unless after these workouts, a player blows them away and is viewed as a true superstar. If they come to the conclusion that the prospects aren't that far off and they can potentially get their Donovan Mitchell at 10 then they may be more enticed to move down and try and get a 2 for 1.

I want to "get rid" of Thjr because we have other options at his position. So if I can use him to move up in draft position while being able to clear his salary for 2019/20 then it makes sense. Obviously I would prefer to move Lee instead but Lee & the #9 isn't all that appealing in a move up.

Mike1989 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:THJ and his salary wouldn't entice me to move out of the top 5. They still have Tyreke Evans, so THJ doesn't really offer them a lot. They're probably better off picking 4 and letting Parsons expire.

It can make sense for Memphis. In Hardaway they are getting a player that nearly averaged 20 a night and could slot in at SG or SF for them. At 9 they can then look at taking Mikal Bridges, a 3 and D glue guy to slot in the other spot. All they would then need to do is address the PF position, unless of course they use the 9th pick on Wendell Carter to play next to Gasol. Since they can use McLemore at SG, or extend Evans.

At 4 they can’t really draft Mikal or Carter, Porter is a risky prospect because his back could hinder his career, JJJ and Bamba are raw upside players that might not fit well with Gasol. So that leaves Bagley as the most likely but if he’s off the board because Atlanta take him and a Doncic and Ayton are gone as well, that might leave them open to a trade.

I doubt they do a trade like this, but if Memphis want to return to the play offs adding Hardaway and perhaps Lee/Thomas plus the best glue guy at 9 could be the best way forwards for them. I’d rather draft JJJ but he’s not on the same timeline as Conley and Gasol. For them they’d need Bagley to fall or be convinced Porter can step in straight away to help them. Otherwise a trade might be best for them unless they intend to trade Conley and Gasol to start a full rebuild.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I think Memphis would rather keep Parsons and the roster spots. It's worth a try, but junk for junk doesn't seem like an incentive to trade down.

THjr isnt junk. He's a 26 year old putting 17/4/3 and trending up. Mudiay is a throw in, but could certainly play backup PG. Parsons gives them nothing. THJ gives them a good young guard. I didnt say great, but THJ is most certainly not garbage.

On a side note I am not looking to move THJ. I bet he's even better next year when his shooting improves and it will

Knick Fan colored glasses. Whcih FO in the NBA think that THJ was worth the contract Mills gave him?
Brw. You know whats never trended up? ............his IQ

Do you think we can throw in Noah? Phil thought he was trending up as well.

He is worth the money when compared to other contracts no one wants. Hardaway isn't a bad player but you don't win in the NBA paying volume scoring SG's with a below average jumper 18 million a year

Noah
Lance
Hardaway

For...,

Parsons
Jamychal Green
Ben Mclamore

Green n Mclamore have one year deals

Jmpasq wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I think Memphis would rather keep Parsons and the roster spots. It's worth a try, but junk for junk doesn't seem like an incentive to trade down.

THjr isnt junk. He's a 26 year old putting 17/4/3 and trending up. Mudiay is a throw in, but could certainly play backup PG. Parsons gives them nothing. THJ gives them a good young guard. I didnt say great, but THJ is most certainly not garbage.

On a side note I am not looking to move THJ. I bet he's even better next year when his shooting improves and it will

Knick Fan colored glasses. Whcih FO in the NBA think that THJ was worth the contract Mills gave him?
Brw. You know whats never trended up? ............his IQ

Do you think we can throw in Noah? Phil thought he was trending up as well.

He is worth the money when compared to other contracts no one wants. Hardaway isn't a bad player but you don't win in the NBA paying volume scoring SG's with a below average jumper 18 million a year

THJ's FG% will bounce back. When he came back from injury and when he started the season he shot horribly. He had the kind of shooting nights Melo has in the playoffs and it ruined his average. That will go up. I am fine with keeping THJ. Memphis has terrible draft luck and have advertised they want a player that can help them.

Do I think this type of deal has a strong chance of working? No... the point to discuss what and where we see value. Would I use a top5 protected future #1 to move up? Yes I would... would I also include THJ in a deal like that? I dont think I would... no. Too much. Maybe THJ and pick 37

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I think Memphis would rather keep Parsons and the roster spots. It's worth a try, but junk for junk doesn't seem like an incentive to trade down.

THjr isnt junk. He's a 26 year old putting 17/4/3 and trending up. Mudiay is a throw in, but could certainly play backup PG. Parsons gives them nothing. THJ gives them a good young guard. I didnt say great, but THJ is most certainly not garbage.

On a side note I am not looking to move THJ. I bet he's even better next year when his shooting improves and it will

Knick Fan colored glasses. Whcih FO in the NBA think that THJ was worth the contract Mills gave him?
Brw. You know whats never trended up? ............his IQ

Do you think we can throw in Noah? Phil thought he was trending up as well.

He is worth the money when compared to other contracts no one wants. Hardaway isn't a bad player but you don't win in the NBA paying volume scoring SG's with a below average jumper 18 million a year

Hofstra... Phil also thought Melo a star player and trending up as well. We can see that Phil was wildly wrong on several accounts... the two guys he gave the most money to are helping their team best by not playing basketball.

THJ's FG% will bounce back. When he came back from injury and when he started the season he shot horribly. He had the kind of shooting nights Melo has in the playoffs and it ruined his average. That will go up. I am fine with keeping THJ. Memphis has terrible draft luck and have advertised they want a player that can help them.

Do I think this type of deal has a strong chance of working? No... the point to discuss what and where we see value. Would I use a top5 protected future #1 to move up? Yes I would... would I also include THJ in a deal like that? I dont think I would... no. Too much. Maybe THJ and pick 37

THJ has been streaky from the day he picked up a basketball. I watched him a lot in college, blazing hot for 2 wks, Ice cold for the next 2. I like his energy though, the 18 mill is standard for his position and production. When 80% of NBA players aren't worth their salary (including Curry) it's crazy to go back and forth trying to prove a point. Besides, I highly doubt Mills would trade THJ or Frank knowing he is the main reason they are in a knick uni.

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:I think Memphis would rather keep Parsons and the roster spots. It's worth a try, but junk for junk doesn't seem like an incentive to trade down.

THjr isnt junk. He's a 26 year old putting 17/4/3 and trending up. Mudiay is a throw in, but could certainly play backup PG. Parsons gives them nothing. THJ gives them a good young guard. I didnt say great, but THJ is most certainly not garbage.

On a side note I am not looking to move THJ. I bet he's even better next year when his shooting improves and it will

Knick Fan colored glasses. Whcih FO in the NBA think that THJ was worth the contract Mills gave him?
Brw. You know whats never trended up? ............his IQ

Do you think we can throw in Noah? Phil thought he was trending up as well.

He is worth the money when compared to other contracts no one wants. Hardaway isn't a bad player but you don't win in the NBA paying volume scoring SG's with a below average jumper 18 million a year

Hofstra... Phil also thought Melo a star player and trending up as well. We can see that Phil was wildly wrong on several accounts... the two guys he gave the most money to are helping their team best by not playing basketball.

THJ's FG% will bounce back. When he came back from injury and when he started the season he shot horribly. He had the kind of shooting nights Melo has in the playoffs and it ruined his average. That will go up. I am fine with keeping THJ. Memphis has terrible draft luck and have advertised they want a player that can help them.

Do I think this type of deal has a strong chance of working? No... the point to discuss what and where we see value. Would I use a top5 protected future #1 to move up? Yes I would... would I also include THJ in a deal like that? I dont think I would... no. Too much. Maybe THJ and pick 37

THJ has been streaky from the day he picked up a basketball. I watched him a lot in college, blazing hot for 2 wks, Ice cold for the next 2. I like his energy though, the 18 mill is standard for his position and production. When 80% of NBA players aren't worth their salary (including Curry) it's crazy to go back and forth trying to prove a point. Besides, I highly doubt Mills would trade THJ or Frank knowing he is the main reason they are in a knick uni.

Always looking for tangable proof. Why not just use the W/L record.
You have no idea other than the homogenized crap any of these guys spew as to what their real thoughts are.
I can't tell you he loves Hardaway because he is "His", or if Perry and Fiz have faith in his growth.
Frank was picked by Phil and his staff. Was Mills in the room? Sure, he is a knick. Thats all I know. Obsessed with who to attach a decision to is very telling of you.
If they collectively have faith in Timmy and Frank, so be it.

Funnel blame to those you do not approve of.

Nalod you have been posting here long enough to know how this works.

NardDogNation wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.

It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.

NardDogNation wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

Mike1989 wrote:It can make sense for Memphis.

It makes zero sense for Memphis. You refuse to acknowledge that any deal for the 4th overall pick would need to be the BEST OPTION AVAILABLE out of ALL OTHER 29 NBA TEAMS and their offers.

If the Knicks were pushing the 4th overall, could they get more than the 9th and THJr? And if they got that, who here would be demanding someone's head on a platter?

You are suggesting a trade that has literally no precedent in modern NBA draft/trade history, defies the current marketplace environment and would be indefensible for the Memphis front office and ownership. They could not defend this trade to their fanbase, to people buying courtside seats and luxury boxes, to people buying ad space and time, to the local sports media. It's totally indefensible.

You are suggesting the Memphis front office act outside the bounds of self preservation. You are asking them to take food off their children's plates and throw it in the trash.

But I want to be civil here. You can't argue value and justify a marketplace rationale. What you can do is look at the total cap/luxury tax implications. If you find an angle here, this is more compelling. If taking in THJr and the 9th dramatically helps the cash flow/any tax situation for Memphis, then you might have a real angle here. Other than that, there is no actual "winning" based perspective why this trade would even be considered by the Grizzlies.

The thing is though that asset rich teams like the Sixers and Celtics (maybe the Nuggets) are not trying to parlay their resources into yet another talented rookie. And veteran teams that are transitioning toward a rebuild who would have interest, don't have the tools to field a competitive offer. Yes, the 4th pick has value but I don't see there being a robust market for it that serves the interest of both parties.

It's no secret that the Grizzlies want to remain as competitive as possible, for as long as possible given their market won't permit another subpar season. That reality is what got them into nightmare contracts with Conley Jr. and Gasol and will dictate their decision making moving forward. I'm no fan of THJr's (I hated the money we gave him from Day 1) but he does offer value to a team, especially one that can actually make the playoffs. And needless to say, he is an upgrade over Chandler Parsons who can't seem to play half a season anymore....or provide much utility when he does play.

So when considering the limited market for the 4th pick, the limited options the Grizzlies have to improve in the immediate, the financials involved and the fact that GMs do what's in the better interest of their job and not the franchise long-term...I think we'd have a puncher's chance at facilitating a trade utilizing the OP's blueprint.

My official offer would be Tim Hardaway Jr, Courtney Lee, the 9th and $5 million cash for Chandler Parsons, Ben McClemore's expirer (~$6 million expirer) and the 4th pick. The deal gives the Grizzlies two rotation players at positions of weakness in exchange for otherwise dead-money. Should Conley and Gasol be healthy (a stretch), that group would be good enough to push the (Kawhi-less) Spurs, Jazz, Thunder and Pelicans for their playoff spots.

Meanwhile, the Knicks save approximately $24 million long-term and would finally be free to play and develop their youth as they should. I also think we'd lose enough games in that process to secure another top 5 pick to augment our core. KP, Michael Porter Jr (at 4), Ntilikina, Melvin Frazier (at 37) and another top 5 pick in 2019 could put us on pace to compete in the arms race with the Sixers and Celtics in the Atlantic.

The Grizzly also need an influx of young talent. Their drafts have been horrible. They'd much rather have another lottery pick or young player than $30 million lined up in shooting gaurds. Heck, there are rumors that Luka could drop to them now. They could just draft MPJ and wait for Parsons to lapse. I do think we could dump Lee on them once things calm down, but after the draft. Maybe even Hardaway.

I think they'd be motivated to trade down because of that poor drafting history. Doing so would allow them to mitigate the risk of only having their pick by acquiring additional "assets" as well as another, lower lottery pick. So just in case they screw up and draft a bad player, they can always point to the fact that they replaced dead money, with productive players.

But let's be real: Mikal Bridges at 9 is as safe a pick as you can get in the draft. While he may have a low ceiling, he has a fairly high floor given his skillset and how critical it is in today's NBA. Just look at how badly guys like Chandler Parsons, Harrison Barnes, MKG, Otto Porter, Evan Turner and DeMarre Carroll got overpaid and you can begin to guage how valuable swingmen with length and skill are. Bridges will be a rotation player for the next decade and will always be in demand (i.e. tradeable). So in actuality, the Grizzlies are getting 3 players that can help them immediately at positions of need that are hard to find in the league. That should have legitimate value, which should demand a similarly valuable return.

Besides, at 4, I see nothing but a lot of high risk-high reward propositions for them and other teams in that range. Porter is the best of that group but with a bad back, would you stake your franchise's future squarely on him becoming a success? In their predicament, I'm not sure I would. But with us being a big market, free agency is always an option to acquire a star, which allows us to draft a bust every now-and-again.