Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

awe1028 wrote:As the conference finals begins, one thing has become abundantly clear: the only team that has a chance to beat Golden State: The Boston Celtics. Why? Simple because they play defense.
Houston? No chance. You know the old saying a copy is never as good as the original.
The Rockets spent so much time trying to imitating Golden State and it will all be for nought as they get destroyed by the Warriors.

Boston on the other hand plays tough in your face defense that will give Golden State some trouble.
We have already seen what that defense did to Lebron and the Cavs and it is this defense that will give Golden State trouble

If it sounds that I have already picked the NBA finals participants after just one game you would be right.
Of the two series Golden State will have the easier time of it. Houston has no chance.
In the Celts Cavs series You have to give Lebron his due but IMHO Boston will also win that series.

Having said all that I still believe GS will beat the Celtics but it is really telling that the team who plays the best defense will have the best chance to beat GS
I sure hope the Knicks are watching

Of course they value defense its all they talk about, but this front office does a lot more than talk about defense, they back up their words with action. I mean nothing screams were building a defensive juggernaut like trading for Mudiay, Kanter, and Mcdermott.

And signing Burke

Wow. Yea. Lets ignore every other move. Jmpasq yours is even better listing McD who was traded for Mudiay.
Kanter came for Melo. Thats an upgrade to your defense
Burke replaced... oh yea, we dont even have a PG.
Frank was regarded as untouchable during the trade deadline.
Lets talk about Ron Baker's stupid contract.
Troy Williams, Kicks, Kornet, Dotson, Lance, Lee and KOQ were all either brought in or go their playing time because they defend.

Fizdale is a defense first hire.

Honestly.. what are the steps you guys would take to get the Knicks better on defense and faster? Jmpasq wants to trade KP, best rim protecter in the league for draft picks... so that will improve the defense yea

awe1028... I totally agree with the premiss of your thread. I have been saying awhile the model we should be targeting are Larry Brown/Dumas Pistons. I suspect there are going to be a lot more roster changes over the next couple years but you are 100% correct and I hope Fizdale is the guy who make this happen. I like that he's getting a young squad that isnt devoid of talent and has a lot of athleticism. I dont have high expectations for next year. I think we take a solid step forward. Frank will be better. Burke looks like he can run an offense. THJ should shoot better and be healthy. Fizdale will have some guys like Dotson, Lee, Lance, Troy, Baker who are willing and able defenders... we will see, but you are right.

How do you look at this FO's moves and NOT come away with a clear direction that they are working to get younger, more athletic and better defensively? We have a LONG ways to go... its year 1 for this FO. But arent the signs pretty clear?

I'm all for the emphasis on defense, but I think it's fair to question some of the moves. Other than Frank (which was a Phil pick) you can't find anything that screams defense (other than maybe Troy).

We also have to admit that there's a major shift in rhetoric if not philosophy. Prior FO wanted smart two-way players who wouldn't necessarily be the guys to jump out of the gym. There's a certain wisdom to this in principle even if not in our execution. Having a better balanced offensive set, helps with defense. Having player movement (not just spacing) helps tire the opponent out (see, GS and SA). Of course you need to execute at the defensive end of the floor too which we failed at.

Current talk sounds like a shift to an emphasis on athleticism and/or grind it out tough guys. I fear this is not a great fit for KP and/or Frank (and actually the better part of our current roster).

Not really following the changes you mention... Since Mills/Perry took over last year all they have talked about is getting younger, more athletic and a defensive squad that can continue to grow together for years and a 3-5 year time line (starting last year). What is this change you speak of?

The emphasis now is on athleticism. Last year this time Phil was saying the team was not necessarily targeting the guys who can jump out of the gym.

The Heat (and the Grizz under Fiz) wanted athletes/grinders.

it's a difference between the Heat, or Grizzlies, versus let's say San Antonio -- when the teams do it at a high level. Each approach can work, but they have different rosters. My own opinion is KP and Frank better suit a San Antonio-type model and we would have been better with Budenholzer. I don't see one starter on our team who I consider tailor made for the Heat/Grizz style

Remember how Riley went from showtime to the Knicks?

I am confident that Fizdale will adapt to the roster and talent.

And I am also confident that Perry, Mills and Fiz are on the same page about the kind of players you need in the NBA to succeed.

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

awe1028 wrote:As the conference finals begins, one thing has become abundantly clear: the only team that has a chance to beat Golden State: The Boston Celtics. Why? Simple because they play defense.
Houston? No chance. You know the old saying a copy is never as good as the original.
The Rockets spent so much time trying to imitating Golden State and it will all be for nought as they get destroyed by the Warriors.

Boston on the other hand plays tough in your face defense that will give Golden State some trouble.
We have already seen what that defense did to Lebron and the Cavs and it is this defense that will give Golden State trouble

If it sounds that I have already picked the NBA finals participants after just one game you would be right.
Of the two series Golden State will have the easier time of it. Houston has no chance.
In the Celts Cavs series You have to give Lebron his due but IMHO Boston will also win that series.

Having said all that I still believe GS will beat the Celtics but it is really telling that the team who plays the best defense will have the best chance to beat GS
I sure hope the Knicks are watching

Of course they value defense its all they talk about, but this front office does a lot more than talk about defense, they back up their words with action. I mean nothing screams were building a defensive juggernaut like trading for Mudiay, Kanter, and Mcdermott.

And signing Burke

Wow. Yea. Lets ignore every other move. Jmpasq yours is even better listing McD who was traded for Mudiay.
Kanter came for Melo. Thats an upgrade to your defense
Burke replaced... oh yea, we dont even have a PG.
Frank was regarded as untouchable during the trade deadline.
Lets talk about Ron Baker's stupid contract.
Troy Williams, Kicks, Kornet, Dotson, Lance, Lee and KOQ were all either brought in or go their playing time because they defend.

Fizdale is a defense first hire.

Honestly.. what are the steps you guys would take to get the Knicks better on defense and faster? Jmpasq wants to trade KP, best rim protecter in the league for draft picks... so that will improve the defense yea

awe1028... I totally agree with the premiss of your thread. I have been saying awhile the model we should be targeting are Larry Brown/Dumas Pistons. I suspect there are going to be a lot more roster changes over the next couple years but you are 100% correct and I hope Fizdale is the guy who make this happen. I like that he's getting a young squad that isnt devoid of talent and has a lot of athleticism. I dont have high expectations for next year. I think we take a solid step forward. Frank will be better. Burke looks like he can run an offense. THJ should shoot better and be healthy. Fizdale will have some guys like Dotson, Lee, Lance, Troy, Baker who are willing and able defenders... we will see, but you are right.

How do you look at this FO's moves and NOT come away with a clear direction that they are working to get younger, more athletic and better defensively? We have a LONG ways to go... its year 1 for this FO. But arent the signs pretty clear?

I thought we were talking about defense and Burke doesn't play any. I sprite their direction but some of their signings don't add up. I am not a fan of the THJR signing either. Mudiay is bad. I am not blaming then for trying, I just think we are a far cry from the discipline Boston has shown in how they acquire talent. Which I think what this thread was about.

topic starter can clarify but that is not what I saw this thead being about. It was about how to build a great team. Even more so a team that can lose its 2 best players and be up 1-0 in the conference finals. How so? With defense. I think that is what this is about and its a spot on.

Of course we are a far cry... we are picking 9th in the lottery, not in the conference finals.

And to be fair... Burke certainly does play defense. He's not very good, mostly because of his size, but the effort is certainly there. He's limited, but he's also a league min G league player that fills a huge need on this roster. Hard to see how you can look at adding Burke as not being committed to defense. If we draft Trea Young I will change my tune.

Considering Perry's biggest success in the FO was under Dumar's Pistons title teams it certainly adds up. I hope we can deliver. Gonna need some luck. Tonight would help!!!!

To me it's less about where we pick and out current roster and more about commitment and discipline to our professed philosophy. I don't hate what they have done, I am so not blown away. My knock on Burke, THJR etc. Is that they don't fit that philosophy. Its one thing to try on defense and a very different thing to have the type of defensive prowess that makes you a reliable 2 way player in the NBA. Commitment to the goal is what gets Boston to this level, their goal maybe different and their starting point maybe different but they have that level of discipline.

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

awe1028 wrote:As the conference finals begins, one thing has become abundantly clear: the only team that has a chance to beat Golden State: The Boston Celtics. Why? Simple because they play defense.
Houston? No chance. You know the old saying a copy is never as good as the original.
The Rockets spent so much time trying to imitating Golden State and it will all be for nought as they get destroyed by the Warriors.

Boston on the other hand plays tough in your face defense that will give Golden State some trouble.
We have already seen what that defense did to Lebron and the Cavs and it is this defense that will give Golden State trouble

If it sounds that I have already picked the NBA finals participants after just one game you would be right.
Of the two series Golden State will have the easier time of it. Houston has no chance.
In the Celts Cavs series You have to give Lebron his due but IMHO Boston will also win that series.

Having said all that I still believe GS will beat the Celtics but it is really telling that the team who plays the best defense will have the best chance to beat GS
I sure hope the Knicks are watching

Of course they value defense its all they talk about, but this front office does a lot more than talk about defense, they back up their words with action. I mean nothing screams were building a defensive juggernaut like trading for Mudiay, Kanter, and Mcdermott.

And signing Burke

Wow. Yea. Lets ignore every other move. Jmpasq yours is even better listing McD who was traded for Mudiay.
Kanter came for Melo. Thats an upgrade to your defense
Burke replaced... oh yea, we dont even have a PG.
Frank was regarded as untouchable during the trade deadline.
Lets talk about Ron Baker's stupid contract.
Troy Williams, Kicks, Kornet, Dotson, Lance, Lee and KOQ were all either brought in or go their playing time because they defend.

Fizdale is a defense first hire.

Honestly.. what are the steps you guys would take to get the Knicks better on defense and faster? Jmpasq wants to trade KP, best rim protecter in the league for draft picks... so that will improve the defense yea

awe1028... I totally agree with the premiss of your thread. I have been saying awhile the model we should be targeting are Larry Brown/Dumas Pistons. I suspect there are going to be a lot more roster changes over the next couple years but you are 100% correct and I hope Fizdale is the guy who make this happen. I like that he's getting a young squad that isnt devoid of talent and has a lot of athleticism. I dont have high expectations for next year. I think we take a solid step forward. Frank will be better. Burke looks like he can run an offense. THJ should shoot better and be healthy. Fizdale will have some guys like Dotson, Lee, Lance, Troy, Baker who are willing and able defenders... we will see, but you are right.

How do you look at this FO's moves and NOT come away with a clear direction that they are working to get younger, more athletic and better defensively? We have a LONG ways to go... its year 1 for this FO. But arent the signs pretty clear?

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

awe1028 wrote:As the conference finals begins, one thing has become abundantly clear: the only team that has a chance to beat Golden State: The Boston Celtics. Why? Simple because they play defense.
Houston? No chance. You know the old saying a copy is never as good as the original.
The Rockets spent so much time trying to imitating Golden State and it will all be for nought as they get destroyed by the Warriors.

Boston on the other hand plays tough in your face defense that will give Golden State some trouble.
We have already seen what that defense did to Lebron and the Cavs and it is this defense that will give Golden State trouble

If it sounds that I have already picked the NBA finals participants after just one game you would be right.
Of the two series Golden State will have the easier time of it. Houston has no chance.
In the Celts Cavs series You have to give Lebron his due but IMHO Boston will also win that series.

Having said all that I still believe GS will beat the Celtics but it is really telling that the team who plays the best defense will have the best chance to beat GS
I sure hope the Knicks are watching

Of course they value defense its all they talk about, but this front office does a lot more than talk about defense, they back up their words with action. I mean nothing screams were building a defensive juggernaut like trading for Mudiay, Kanter, and Mcdermott.

And signing Burke

Wow. Yea. Lets ignore every other move. Jmpasq yours is even better listing McD who was traded for Mudiay.
Kanter came for Melo. Thats an upgrade to your defense
Burke replaced... oh yea, we dont even have a PG.
Frank was regarded as untouchable during the trade deadline.
Lets talk about Ron Baker's stupid contract.
Troy Williams, Kicks, Kornet, Dotson, Lance, Lee and KOQ were all either brought in or go their playing time because they defend.

Fizdale is a defense first hire.

Honestly.. what are the steps you guys would take to get the Knicks better on defense and faster? Jmpasq wants to trade KP, best rim protecter in the league for draft picks... so that will improve the defense yea

awe1028... I totally agree with the premiss of your thread. I have been saying awhile the model we should be targeting are Larry Brown/Dumas Pistons. I suspect there are going to be a lot more roster changes over the next couple years but you are 100% correct and I hope Fizdale is the guy who make this happen. I like that he's getting a young squad that isnt devoid of talent and has a lot of athleticism. I dont have high expectations for next year. I think we take a solid step forward. Frank will be better. Burke looks like he can run an offense. THJ should shoot better and be healthy. Fizdale will have some guys like Dotson, Lee, Lance, Troy, Baker who are willing and able defenders... we will see, but you are right.

How do you look at this FO's moves and NOT come away with a clear direction that they are working to get younger, more athletic and better defensively? We have a LONG ways to go... its year 1 for this FO. But arent the signs pretty clear?

I thought we were talking about defense and Burke doesn't play any. I sprite their direction but some of their signings don't add up. I am not a fan of the THJR signing either. Mudiay is bad. I am not blaming then for trying, I just think we are a far cry from the discipline Boston has shown in how they acquire talent. Which I think what this thread was about.

topic starter can clarify but that is not what I saw this thead being about. It was about how to build a great team. Even more so a team that can lose its 2 best players and be up 1-0 in the conference finals. How so? With defense. I think that is what this is about and its a spot on.

Of course we are a far cry... we are picking 9th in the lottery, not in the conference finals.

And to be fair... Burke certainly does play defense. He's not very good, mostly because of his size, but the effort is certainly there. He's limited, but he's also a league min G league player that fills a huge need on this roster. Hard to see how you can look at adding Burke as not being committed to defense. If we draft Trea Young I will change my tune.

Considering Perry's biggest success in the FO was under Dumar's Pistons title teams it certainly adds up. I hope we can deliver. Gonna need some luck. Tonight would help!!!!

To me it's less about where we pick and out current roster and more about commitment and discipline to our professed philosophy. I don't hate what they have done, I am so not blown away. My knock on Burke, THJR etc. Is that they don't fit that philosophy. Its one thing to try on defense and a very different thing to have the type of defensive prowess that makes you a reliable 2 way player in the NBA. Commitment to the goal is what gets Boston to this level, their goal maybe different and their starting point maybe different but they have that level of discipline.

Knicks need to stock up on good players and keep improving. There isnt enough NBA talent to pick and choose all at once. There are going to be stop gaps, lots of stop gaps until we start finding perm parts. This whole thing with this FO is in its infancy. The VMarts and 1248s will harp on and on that its same old Knicks, and Mills has been here all along. That simply isnt true or fair to this FO. They get the same chance everyone should.

Boston has had massive roster turnover from year to year. We wont have a luxury of the high lottery picks, but the Knicks are still wise to bring in talent and develop it even if its not a perfect fit for the vision. Isiah Thomas certainly was not. Burke doesnt have to be either... but can he get us to the next level? We will see... but that should be the goal IMO. Dont overpay and give out bad contracts. Dont whiff in the draft. Dont give up picks. Keep improving from within. Eventually the Knicks will actually be able to make trades also... building the asset base is part of that. That is where THJ and Burke come in.

Nalod wrote:Celtics have done a masterful job in many phases.
Even Isiah Thomas getting hurt did not derail them.
Taking Tatum and trading the pick was genius and they still another pick!!!!
Rozier developed was awesome. Trading Bradley was awesome. They are a model the last few years of patience too! Fans wanted Ainge to burn assets but he was stubborn to stay patient!
I hate the Celtics for decades, today I respect and find the whole team likable.
Until the knicks play significant games with them and a rivalry starts I perhaps wont' root for them, but am enjoying their success.

I have mixed feelings. Check out the Celtics picks over the years. They have a lot of meh years, a lot of busts. You'll see a lot of names and say "Who the hell was that?"

it could be the case that Ainge has finally learned and figured it out. Or it could be "Process"-like and that with enough picks you eventually string a bunch of coin tosses together that you look good and you're anointed a genius. (Personally I'm still in that latter camp and not ready to tab Ainge as having the magic touch)

I will admit to this though:

I thought Rozier was a bust (wrong)
Last year thought Brown was a big bust (big wrong)
I thought Steven's approach would work well during the season but not the playoffs (ala Fratello and others) (wrong again)

I did think they should move on from IT (was right on that, which both exposed IT some, and also showed how good a coach Brad is in hiding IT's deficiencies)
I did think the Bradley move was smart (sell high; cap issues; and Smart was ready for that lock down role)

One thing about the Celtics that I like and that dovetails with my own thinking is picking players with an emphasis on defense. If you get guys who actually pride themselves on D that can play team ball on the defensive end too and make a big impact. I also think you get better value there. People over pay for swishes, and dunks

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Chandler wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

awe1028 wrote:As the conference finals begins, one thing has become abundantly clear: the only team that has a chance to beat Golden State: The Boston Celtics. Why? Simple because they play defense.
Houston? No chance. You know the old saying a copy is never as good as the original.
The Rockets spent so much time trying to imitating Golden State and it will all be for nought as they get destroyed by the Warriors.

Boston on the other hand plays tough in your face defense that will give Golden State some trouble.
We have already seen what that defense did to Lebron and the Cavs and it is this defense that will give Golden State trouble

If it sounds that I have already picked the NBA finals participants after just one game you would be right.
Of the two series Golden State will have the easier time of it. Houston has no chance.
In the Celts Cavs series You have to give Lebron his due but IMHO Boston will also win that series.

Having said all that I still believe GS will beat the Celtics but it is really telling that the team who plays the best defense will have the best chance to beat GS
I sure hope the Knicks are watching

Of course they value defense its all they talk about, but this front office does a lot more than talk about defense, they back up their words with action. I mean nothing screams were building a defensive juggernaut like trading for Mudiay, Kanter, and Mcdermott.

And signing Burke

Wow. Yea. Lets ignore every other move. Jmpasq yours is even better listing McD who was traded for Mudiay.
Kanter came for Melo. Thats an upgrade to your defense
Burke replaced... oh yea, we dont even have a PG.
Frank was regarded as untouchable during the trade deadline.
Lets talk about Ron Baker's stupid contract.
Troy Williams, Kicks, Kornet, Dotson, Lance, Lee and KOQ were all either brought in or go their playing time because they defend.

Fizdale is a defense first hire.

Honestly.. what are the steps you guys would take to get the Knicks better on defense and faster? Jmpasq wants to trade KP, best rim protecter in the league for draft picks... so that will improve the defense yea

awe1028... I totally agree with the premiss of your thread. I have been saying awhile the model we should be targeting are Larry Brown/Dumas Pistons. I suspect there are going to be a lot more roster changes over the next couple years but you are 100% correct and I hope Fizdale is the guy who make this happen. I like that he's getting a young squad that isnt devoid of talent and has a lot of athleticism. I dont have high expectations for next year. I think we take a solid step forward. Frank will be better. Burke looks like he can run an offense. THJ should shoot better and be healthy. Fizdale will have some guys like Dotson, Lee, Lance, Troy, Baker who are willing and able defenders... we will see, but you are right.

How do you look at this FO's moves and NOT come away with a clear direction that they are working to get younger, more athletic and better defensively? We have a LONG ways to go... its year 1 for this FO. But arent the signs pretty clear?

I'm all for the emphasis on defense, but I think it's fair to question some of the moves. Other than Frank (which was a Phil pick) you can't find anything that screams defense (other than maybe Troy).

We also have to admit that there's a major shift in rhetoric if not philosophy. Prior FO wanted smart two-way players who wouldn't necessarily be the guys to jump out of the gym. There's a certain wisdom to this in principle even if not in our execution. Having a better balanced offensive set, helps with defense. Having player movement (not just spacing) helps tire the opponent out (see, GS and SA). Of course you need to execute at the defensive end of the floor too which we failed at.

Current talk sounds like a shift to an emphasis on athleticism and/or grind it out tough guys. I fear this is not a great fit for KP and/or Frank (and actually the better part of our current roster).

Not really following the changes you mention... Since Mills/Perry took over last year all they have talked about is getting younger, more athletic and a defensive squad that can continue to grow together for years and a 3-5 year time line (starting last year). What is this change you speak of?

The emphasis now is on athleticism. Last year this time Phil was saying the team was not necessarily targeting the guys who can jump out of the gym.

The Heat (and the Grizz under Fiz) wanted athletes/grinders.

it's a difference between the Heat, or Grizzlies, versus let's say San Antonio -- when the teams do it at a high level. Each approach can work, but they have different rosters. My own opinion is KP and Frank better suit a San Antonio-type model and we would have been better with Budenholzer. I don't see one starter on our team who I consider tailor made for the Heat/Grizz style

OK from Phil to current FO. Got it... I thought you meant with the current FO.

I thought Bud was the best fit for coach. Uptown and others swayed my mind to remain open to Fizdale which I will do until he phucks everything up.

Its very early to tell anything... all these moves are reading tea leaves, but they are pretty consistent. Sometimes you dont get to dictate either. KOQ/Kanter both are both big moving parts. Kanter has value at 25, a double double machine and plays very hard. Is he worth $80mm? Ouch... we will see. This FO has tough challenges ahead.

No to Kanter at 80 mil/4 years. Yes to KOQ 24 mil/3 years. Noah, NO STRETCH. Play next year, trade as a expiring the following year. KOQ/Kornet/Noah. THJ, you're on notice! Dot can hit that shot AND play D.