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Philly is above Boston
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Nalod
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4/13/2018  3:48 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:Lots of luck and leeway was involved....They purposely tanked for years...He drafted Ok4, Nerlens, Carter-Williams with hopes that they would be the franchise players...He turned them over, and lucked up but landing a few number #1's and the fact that Embiid dropped due to injury....You think Perry would have the leeway to do what that guy did over the years? He would be fired by year 3!!!

Hinkie put himself in position for the good and bad. If luck landed him Embild and Simmons. Then he was unlucky with Ok4, Noel, MCW. Which could have been KP, CJ Mcollum, Greak Freak, Shrodeder, Gobert. They had a shot at Jokic in the 2nd as well but took Mcdaniels & Grant.

But because he gave himself so many opportunities to get lucky he banked on if he could hit one or 2 studs it would override the misses. And to his credit that's exactly what happen.

Hinkie got fired himself just like any GM would. But the next regime gets all those assets. As an owner its a win win. As a fan base if your willing to deal with all that losing to be in the position they are in now. Hinkie becomes the fall guy, yet the owner gets to reap all the benefits of the ground work he laid for the next 5-15yrs. And the fan base gets to enjoy a contender for the next 5-15yrs.

I dont know how they did it (even after Hinkie left) but they've managed to draft one seriously injured top pick after another. Players now must be wondering if getting drafted by Philly is a date with a season ending injury.

Thats the ingredient baked into this "process" that has allowed them (until this season) not to receive the bump, high picks usually gives the team that drafted them. Thats how they kept landing all those high picks. How do you replicate that, and do you even want to?

When Embild missed his rookie yr. They drafted OK4 with higher pick they landed because of it.Who ended up being a wasted pick. So even though they got the bump they really got nothing to show for it. The next yr Embild got Injured again and Ok4 wasn't a good bball player. So they ended up sucking again and landed the #1 pick which was Simmons.

Simmons missed his rookie yr and they landed a top 3 pick which they traded up to one with some of the million assets they had stored. (Jokes on them though as they could have traded down and taken Mitchell 😁).

You could say that Simmons was the result of the injuries. But Embild developed into a stronger player over time and they didn't have much talent around him to be much better for him to carry them to more wins at that stage of his career.


Noel & MCW haven't proven to be difference makers on the level of winning much more games.

Too many injuries, and missed games by top picks, to say that they werent instrumental in acquiring better picks. If they arent playing, they arent helping. I dont see any way Philly drafts nearly as well without benefiting from the remote odds that something like this would happen in consecutive years.

That's the genius of it all, when you actually factor in the real world ratios and accept that some players won't pan out you build the process on math!!!
It was enviable they would construct a core.
Its brilliant!!!

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
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GustavBahler
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4/13/2018  4:23 PM
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:Lots of luck and leeway was involved....They purposely tanked for years...He drafted Ok4, Nerlens, Carter-Williams with hopes that they would be the franchise players...He turned them over, and lucked up but landing a few number #1's and the fact that Embiid dropped due to injury....You think Perry would have the leeway to do what that guy did over the years? He would be fired by year 3!!!

Hinkie put himself in position for the good and bad. If luck landed him Embild and Simmons. Then he was unlucky with Ok4, Noel, MCW. Which could have been KP, CJ Mcollum, Greak Freak, Shrodeder, Gobert. They had a shot at Jokic in the 2nd as well but took Mcdaniels & Grant.

But because he gave himself so many opportunities to get lucky he banked on if he could hit one or 2 studs it would override the misses. And to his credit that's exactly what happen.

Hinkie got fired himself just like any GM would. But the next regime gets all those assets. As an owner its a win win. As a fan base if your willing to deal with all that losing to be in the position they are in now. Hinkie becomes the fall guy, yet the owner gets to reap all the benefits of the ground work he laid for the next 5-15yrs. And the fan base gets to enjoy a contender for the next 5-15yrs.

I dont know how they did it (even after Hinkie left) but they've managed to draft one seriously injured top pick after another. Players now must be wondering if getting drafted by Philly is a date with a season ending injury.

Thats the ingredient baked into this "process" that has allowed them (until this season) not to receive the bump, high picks usually gives the team that drafted them. Thats how they kept landing all those high picks. How do you replicate that, and do you even want to?

When Embild missed his rookie yr. They drafted OK4 with higher pick they landed because of it.Who ended up being a wasted pick. So even though they got the bump they really got nothing to show for it. The next yr Embild got Injured again and Ok4 wasn't a good bball player. So they ended up sucking again and landed the #1 pick which was Simmons.

Simmons missed his rookie yr and they landed a top 3 pick which they traded up to one with some of the million assets they had stored. (Jokes on them though as they could have traded down and taken Mitchell 😁).

You could say that Simmons was the result of the injuries. But Embild developed into a stronger player over time and they didn't have much talent around him to be much better for him to carry them to more wins at that stage of his career.


Noel & MCW haven't proven to be difference makers on the level of winning much more games.

Too many injuries, and missed games by top picks, to say that they werent instrumental in acquiring better picks. If they arent playing, they arent helping. I dont see any way Philly drafts nearly as well without benefiting from the remote odds that something like this would happen in consecutive years.

That's the genius of it all, when you actually factor in the real world ratios and accept that some players won't pan out you build the process on math!!!
It was enviable they would construct a core.
Its brilliant!!!

The main ingredient in this outcome was dumb fing luck. In the real world, a high lottery pick for the same team doesnt get hurt year after year. If Hinkie had constructed a model that predicted which players were going to get hurt , and miss significant PT, and drafted accordingly. I still wouldnt go that route, but it would be clear that there was a method to tbe madness.

If Hinkie deserves credit for anything its recognizing that top rookie draft picks missing many games was halfway to a tank, amd he did what he needed to complete the mission. He did a good job of riding a wave, so to speak.

It speaks to his ability to make decisions on the fly IMO, but it doesnt mean he has a master plan.

newyorknewyork
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4/13/2018  6:00 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
Nalod wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
Uptown wrote:Lots of luck and leeway was involved....They purposely tanked for years...He drafted Ok4, Nerlens, Carter-Williams with hopes that they would be the franchise players...He turned them over, and lucked up but landing a few number #1's and the fact that Embiid dropped due to injury....You think Perry would have the leeway to do what that guy did over the years? He would be fired by year 3!!!

Hinkie put himself in position for the good and bad. If luck landed him Embild and Simmons. Then he was unlucky with Ok4, Noel, MCW. Which could have been KP, CJ Mcollum, Greak Freak, Shrodeder, Gobert. They had a shot at Jokic in the 2nd as well but took Mcdaniels & Grant.

But because he gave himself so many opportunities to get lucky he banked on if he could hit one or 2 studs it would override the misses. And to his credit that's exactly what happen.

Hinkie got fired himself just like any GM would. But the next regime gets all those assets. As an owner its a win win. As a fan base if your willing to deal with all that losing to be in the position they are in now. Hinkie becomes the fall guy, yet the owner gets to reap all the benefits of the ground work he laid for the next 5-15yrs. And the fan base gets to enjoy a contender for the next 5-15yrs.

I dont know how they did it (even after Hinkie left) but they've managed to draft one seriously injured top pick after another. Players now must be wondering if getting drafted by Philly is a date with a season ending injury.

Thats the ingredient baked into this "process" that has allowed them (until this season) not to receive the bump, high picks usually gives the team that drafted them. Thats how they kept landing all those high picks. How do you replicate that, and do you even want to?

When Embild missed his rookie yr. They drafted OK4 with higher pick they landed because of it.Who ended up being a wasted pick. So even though they got the bump they really got nothing to show for it. The next yr Embild got Injured again and Ok4 wasn't a good bball player. So they ended up sucking again and landed the #1 pick which was Simmons.

Simmons missed his rookie yr and they landed a top 3 pick which they traded up to one with some of the million assets they had stored. (Jokes on them though as they could have traded down and taken Mitchell 😁).

You could say that Simmons was the result of the injuries. But Embild developed into a stronger player over time and they didn't have much talent around him to be much better for him to carry them to more wins at that stage of his career.


Noel & MCW haven't proven to be difference makers on the level of winning much more games.

Too many injuries, and missed games by top picks, to say that they werent instrumental in acquiring better picks. If they arent playing, they arent helping. I dont see any way Philly drafts nearly as well without benefiting from the remote odds that something like this would happen in consecutive years.

That's the genius of it all, when you actually factor in the real world ratios and accept that some players won't pan out you build the process on math!!!
It was enviable they would construct a core.
Its brilliant!!!

The main ingredient in this outcome was dumb fing luck. In the real world, a high lottery pick for the same team doesnt get hurt year after year. If Hinkie had constructed a model that predicted which players were going to get hurt , and miss significant PT, and drafted accordingly. I still wouldnt go that route, but it would be clear that there was a method to tbe madness.

If Hinkie deserves credit for anything its recognizing that top rookie draft picks missing many games was halfway to a tank, amd he did what he needed to complete the mission. He did a good job of riding a wave, so to speak.

It speaks to his ability to make decisions on the fly IMO, but it doesnt mean he has a master plan.

I can agree Simmons getting injured helped them get a top 3 pick last yr. Which has yet to pay dividens. But Noel and MCW weren't going to lead to more wins than what they got which landed them Embild. Suns have Booker, Jackson, Chriss, Warren which is more talent then the MCW & Noel roster which the purposely purged in order to tank. And sums have the worst record in the NBA. Jackson AS A rookie didn't provide any real bump. Embild Noel MCW produced Okafor which was a wasted pick. MCW was traded, Noel & Ok4 arent that good. Leaving Embild by himself if he was even healthy wouldn't have been able to win much with what they had.

The real product of injuries was the top 3 pick last yr. As a healthy Embild and Simmons would have pushed them down toward #8-12. Which they could have landed Mitchell or Monk.

newyorknewyork
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4/13/2018  6:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 4/13/2018  6:13 PM
They won 10 games with the roster they put out the yr they win the pick to draft Simmons. They had Ok4, Ish Smith, Noel, Covington, Holis Thompson, Jerami Grant, Isiah Cannan, Nik Stauskus, TJ McConnell as their main rotation.

The next closest team won 17 games followed by 21 games. Embild even if you wanted to claim added 10 wins. Philly would still have the 2nd best odds at the #1 pick. Even if you felt Embild alone added 15 wins. Philly would ha e the 4th best odds of winning the #1 pick.

Simmons has proven to be more of a win generator then Embild as well.

And he played 31 games. So he would have to add 10 wins in 51 himself in 51 games.

GustavBahler
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4/13/2018  8:40 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:They won 10 games with the roster they put out the yr they win the pick to draft Simmons. They had Ok4, Ish Smith, Noel, Covington, Holis Thompson, Jerami Grant, Isiah Cannan, Nik Stauskus, TJ McConnell as their main rotation.

The next closest team won 17 games followed by 21 games. Embild even if you wanted to claim added 10 wins. Philly would still have the 2nd best odds at the #1 pick. Even if you felt Embild alone added 15 wins. Philly would ha e the 4th best odds of winning the #1 pick.

Simmons has proven to be more of a win generator then Embild as well.

And he played 31 games. So he would have to add 10 wins in 51 himself in 51 games.

Fultz is the youngest player to notch a triple double in league history. With barely any PT. Id say that was a sign it paid off. To the larger point of wether or not its paying off in wins, playoffs, the answer has been no. Which is why I cant praise Hinkie. Shouldnt be a big deal that Philly has made the playoffs at this point. Too many years have passed.

CrushAlot
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4/13/2018  8:45 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:They won 10 games with the roster they put out the yr they win the pick to draft Simmons. They had Ok4, Ish Smith, Noel, Covington, Holis Thompson, Jerami Grant, Isiah Cannan, Nik Stauskus, TJ McConnell as their main rotation.

The next closest team won 17 games followed by 21 games. Embild even if you wanted to claim added 10 wins. Philly would still have the 2nd best odds at the #1 pick. Even if you felt Embild alone added 15 wins. Philly would ha e the 4th best odds of winning the #1 pick.

Simmons has proven to be more of a win generator then Embild as well.

And he played 31 games. So he would have to add 10 wins in 51 himself in 51 games.

Fultz is the youngest player to notch a triple double in league history. With barely any PT. Id say that was a sign it paid off. To the larger point of wether or not its paying off in wins, playoffs, the answer has been no. Which is why I cant praise Hinkie. Shouldnt be a big deal that Philly has made the playoffs at this point. Too many years have passed.

Not sure that Hinkie could have finished the job. His strategy had its merits but it took a long time to work out. Would he have signed Redick to a 23 mil deal or would he have tried to use cap space to acquire picks from other teams etc and push winning out another year or two? Would he have traded for Fultz? Hinkie was a part of the process but I don't think he was the guy to complete it.
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VCoug
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4/13/2018  9:45 PM
I can't believe people here are still doubting the process. The 76ers tanked for 5 seasons and now have a super-young 52 win team with at least two potential superstars and will probably be adding another high draft pick from the Lakers this Summer. We've sucked for 5 years. Does anyone here think that we'll win 52 games next season? The season after that? How many years do you think it will take to be as good as Philly is today?
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newyorknewyork
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4/13/2018  10:20 PM
GustavBahler wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:They won 10 games with the roster they put out the yr they win the pick to draft Simmons. They had Ok4, Ish Smith, Noel, Covington, Holis Thompson, Jerami Grant, Isiah Cannan, Nik Stauskus, TJ McConnell as their main rotation.

The next closest team won 17 games followed by 21 games. Embild even if you wanted to claim added 10 wins. Philly would still have the 2nd best odds at the #1 pick. Even if you felt Embild alone added 15 wins. Philly would ha e the 4th best odds of winning the #1 pick.

Simmons has proven to be more of a win generator then Embild as well.

And he played 31 games. So he would have to add 10 wins in 51 himself in 51 games.

Fultz is the youngest player to notch a triple double in league history. With barely any PT. Id say that was a sign it paid off. To the larger point of wether or not its paying off in wins, playoffs, the answer has been no. Which is why I cant praise Hinkie. Shouldnt be a big deal that Philly has made the playoffs at this point. Too many years have passed.

I have no doubt that if Fultz can get right he could be am impact player. He hardly played this season so can't attribute the 50+wins to his addition. Which is what I meant by paying dividends. If he shines in the playoffs which is possible with no scouting report. Then the injuries of Simmons and Embild surely helped them land a top 3 pick. Though it was also the assets collected from the process that gave them the ammo to move up for him. Even with all that. Landing Embild and Simmons in the first place had more to do with their process then anything else. If Noel and MCW were superstars then they wouldn't have landed Embild or Simmons. But would have Noel and MCE in their place as superstars. With a boatload of assets to build around them if they deemed worthy. Or if Okafor was a superstar. They don't land Simmons but Okafor would be in his place which they would then move him or Embild for a stud at a different position. They were going to continually put themselves in position to land a stud at the draft until they got one or 2.

They were landing lotto picks from other teams. They werent must banking on their own.

The part I would attribute to luck was that a talent like Simmons came along while they were trash.

Vmart
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4/13/2018  11:30 PM
VCoug wrote:I can't believe people here are still doubting the process. The 76ers tanked for 5 seasons and now have a super-young 52 win team with at least two potential superstars and will probably be adding another high draft pick from the Lakers this Summer. We've sucked for 5 years. Does anyone here think that we'll win 52 games next season? The season after that? How many years do you think it will take to be as good as Philly is today?

Totally agree with you man the process works.

CrushAlot
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4/13/2018  11:57 PM
Vmart wrote:
VCoug wrote:I can't believe people here are still doubting the process. The 76ers tanked for 5 seasons and now have a super-young 52 win team with at least two potential superstars and will probably be adding another high draft pick from the Lakers this Summer. We've sucked for 5 years. Does anyone here think that we'll win 52 games next season? The season after that? How many years do you think it will take to be as good as Philly is today?

Totally agree with you man the process works.


You have been going hard after the front office since the Knicks actually began trying to rebuild 10 months ago. It makes it hard to think you could stomach anything close to what Hinkie did in Philly.
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newyorknewyork
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4/14/2018  1:53 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
VCoug wrote:I can't believe people here are still doubting the process. The 76ers tanked for 5 seasons and now have a super-young 52 win team with at least two potential superstars and will probably be adding another high draft pick from the Lakers this Summer. We've sucked for 5 years. Does anyone here think that we'll win 52 games next season? The season after that? How many years do you think it will take to be as good as Philly is today?

Totally agree with you man the process works.


You have been going hard after the front office since the Knicks actually began trying to rebuild 10 months ago. It makes it hard to think you could stomach anything close to what Hinkie did in Philly.

Hinkies process needs some fine tuning from his original layout. But the ideology isn't bad.

Vmart
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4/14/2018  9:37 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
VCoug wrote:I can't believe people here are still doubting the process. The 76ers tanked for 5 seasons and now have a super-young 52 win team with at least two potential superstars and will probably be adding another high draft pick from the Lakers this Summer. We've sucked for 5 years. Does anyone here think that we'll win 52 games next season? The season after that? How many years do you think it will take to be as good as Philly is today?

Totally agree with you man the process works.


You have been going hard after the front office since the Knicks actually began trying to rebuild 10 months ago. It makes it hard to think you could stomach anything close to what Hinkie did in Philly.

Rebuilding the Knicks showed absolutely no signs of rebuilding. They played vets big minutes in the beginning. When KP was run into the ground for some hopeless attempt at playoffs. They decided to call some plays from g league. Trade for some players who were not good enough for other teams to keep around. Rebuild to would have been playing KP, Willie, Dotson, Ntlikina big minutes from the beginning. Assuring they get ample development and better draft position if they didn’t perform well and if they do perform well then it’s a sign of development for the team going in the right direction.

You do realize that tank creates value for an organization and give a team a better chance at getting an impact player.

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4/14/2018  9:58 AM
There are a couple of dynamics that work against long term tanking as a strategy for building a championship team: one is lottery reform and the other is a change in how teams are going about trades. Teams just aren't trading trading draft picks without lottery protection - I think GMs have learned from their mistakes. They're also valuing draft picks more highly ($3.5Mn for the 38th pick in 2017 - damn, that would have cost $1Mn in 2015). Kyrie Irving in the past would have netted 2 top first round picks. Jimmy Butler allowed Chicago just a higher draft pick.
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4/14/2018  10:22 AM
The way forward might be to find hidden gems like Victor Oladipo in trades, not hoping for a high lottery pick.
Vmart
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4/14/2018  10:49 AM
ccinflushing wrote:The way forward might be to find hidden gems like Victor Oladipo in trades, not hoping for a high lottery pick.

Funny how you mention Oladipo. Perry traded him scary that he didn’t see his talent.

ccinflushing
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4/14/2018  11:18 AM
Vmart wrote:
ccinflushing wrote:The way forward might be to find hidden gems like Victor Oladipo in trades, not hoping for a high lottery pick.

Funny how you mention Oladipo. Perry traded him scary that he didn’t see his talent.

It's also opportunity and being ready to seize the moment .. he wasn't going to be the guy in OKC .. just like Harden

newyorknewyork
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4/14/2018  12:28 PM
ccinflushing wrote:
Vmart wrote:
ccinflushing wrote:The way forward might be to find hidden gems like Victor Oladipo in trades, not hoping for a high lottery pick.

Funny how you mention Oladipo. Perry traded him scary that he didn’t see his talent.

It's also opportunity and being ready to seize the moment .. he wasn't going to be the guy in OKC .. just like Harden

Dipo became a better player after working with Westbrook and realizing the steps he needed to take to become a better player. He may not have come to that realization if he stayed in Orlando.

There is more risk going after players like these though. Dipo getting 20+mil and you have to give up assets to get him. Pacers had to move Paul George. Draft picks won't cost 20+mil and if you use your own picks then you dont have to give up anything.

For James Harden Rockets had to give up their lotto pick. A 20 pt scorer in Martin. And other prospects/draft picks. So they had to have a collection of assets to be in play.

So there is no Dipo or Harden to be had if you didnt do the ground work to have to assets available to get them.

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4/14/2018  12:35 PM
Vmart wrote:
ccinflushing wrote:The way forward might be to find hidden gems like Victor Oladipo in trades, not hoping for a high lottery pick.

Funny how you mention Oladipo. Perry traded him scary that he didn’t see his talent.

Do you know it was Perry advocating for the trade or his boss, Rob Hennigan?
you now know in the last two years olidipo has improved massively each of those years embarrassing both the magic and Sam Presti.
Magic traded Olidipo, the 11th pick that was Sabonis and Ilistrova for free agent to be Ibaka, who after two years traded to Toronto. If Paul George walks with nothing in return Presti looks even worse than Hennigan.
That’s the kind of stupidity that gets you fired and Magic mirred in their awful state.
But, its all about Perry?

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
Vmart
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4/14/2018  1:02 PM
Nalod wrote:
Vmart wrote:
ccinflushing wrote:The way forward might be to find hidden gems like Victor Oladipo in trades, not hoping for a high lottery pick.

Funny how you mention Oladipo. Perry traded him scary that he didn’t see his talent.

Do you know it was Perry advocating for the trade or his boss, Rob Hennigan?
you now know in the last two years olidipo has improved massively each of those years embarrassing both the magic and Sam Presti.
Magic traded Olidipo, the 11th pick that was Sabonis and Ilistrova for free agent to be Ibaka, who after two years traded to Toronto. If Paul George walks with nothing in return Presti looks even worse than Hennigan.
That’s the kind of stupidity that gets you fired and Magic mirred in their awful state.
But, its all about Perry?

Lets absolve Perry of any wrong doing. I love the let’s blame everyone but Perry. Nalod your a prime example of a plastic bag in the wind. You did this with Phil remember uncle Phil. Soon as Phil was out you threw him under the bus. Your doing the same thing with Perry. Only time will tell if you throw him under the bus.

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4/14/2018  1:22 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
Vmart wrote:
VCoug wrote:I can't believe people here are still doubting the process. The 76ers tanked for 5 seasons and now have a super-young 52 win team with at least two potential superstars and will probably be adding another high draft pick from the Lakers this Summer. We've sucked for 5 years. Does anyone here think that we'll win 52 games next season? The season after that? How many years do you think it will take to be as good as Philly is today?

Totally agree with you man the process works.


You have been going hard after the front office since the Knicks actually began trying to rebuild 10 months ago. It makes it hard to think you could stomach anything close to what Hinkie did in Philly.

This team has sucked for nearly 20 years straight with almost nothing to show for it and I'm still around. I've been calling for us to tear down and rebuild that entire time so at least we might suck with purpose. And I don't know what you're talking about by the front office actually began trying to rebuild. Paying $18M/year to an at best league-average SG doesn't sound like a rebuilding move to me.

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Philly is above Boston

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