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This is just a stupid losing organization
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martin
Posts: 47491
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4/13/2018  11:34 AM
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:You know the Knicks are going to get jumped on lottery day. That is almost a given. Probably going to be picking 10 or 11. With that said if there is a player that the Knicks are targeting be prepared to be in the outside looking in. The Knicks probably take a player that has no business being a Knick. Like Jordan Hill.
your morning cheerios contained:
a) piss
b) vinegar
c) all of the above

Its 2018 and you are talking about Jordan Hill. So glad you shared this with us today.

And your is Lucky Charms right. Few more of these and your piss and vinegar comes in with verbal abuse. Fish you shouldn’t talk about piss and vinegar.

verbal abuse? You are holding onto Jordan Hill.

Fish, I have mad respect for you But I just don’t share the vision you have of the team. I felt that JH hurt this team big time by not giving young player the run they deserved in a rebuild year. JH did play young players last year towards the end, he did it again this year. What JH failed to do was create enough information on the players going forward.

I believe it was vital and it’s still possible that the Knicks get into top 3 position. The reason is simple choices on what they want. Tanking is a plan it really works. You saw it with your own eyes. The Knicks had the second worst record and ended up picking 4 for KP and that is where the little luck came in.

Yes I’m not optimistic I know because it’s the Knicks. How can you be until they show you.

Your ask for a tank and also the want to play young guys (with your assumption that the young guys DIDN'T play) does not meet with reality and what happened during the season.

The Knicks were above .500 through mid December. They were playing KP, THJr, Frank, Kanter, KOQ, McD, Baker very regular minutes; those are all young guys. And yes, they were playing Lee, Jack, Beas too.

You just don't start Frank in that setting, nor can you realistically sit Lee/THJr to play Dotson in that circumstance.

THjr went down at the beginning of Dec, KP went down in Feb.

Since mid-Dec, they were tied for the worst record in the league. Your definition of tank as it regards to records.

That's the reality of the team. Did best to win and exceeded expectations at beginning of year, "tanked" the rest of the way. Did they maximize playing ALL the very youngest? No. But their record wouldn't have been much different. C'est la vie.

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fishmike
Posts: 48783
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
4/13/2018  12:23 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:
fishmike wrote:
Vmart wrote:You know the Knicks are going to get jumped on lottery day. That is almost a given. Probably going to be picking 10 or 11. With that said if there is a player that the Knicks are targeting be prepared to be in the outside looking in. The Knicks probably take a player that has no business being a Knick. Like Jordan Hill.
your morning cheerios contained:
a) piss
b) vinegar
c) all of the above

Its 2018 and you are talking about Jordan Hill. So glad you shared this with us today.

And your is Lucky Charms right. Few more of these and your piss and vinegar comes in with verbal abuse. Fish you shouldn’t talk about piss and vinegar.

verbal abuse? You are holding onto Jordan Hill.

Fish, I have mad respect for you But I just don’t share the vision you have of the team. I felt that JH hurt this team big time by not giving young player the run they deserved in a rebuild year. JH did play young players last year towards the end, he did it again this year. What JH failed to do was create enough information on the players going forward.

I believe it was vital and it’s still possible that the Knicks get into top 3 position. The reason is simple choices on what they want. Tanking is a plan it really works. You saw it with your own eyes. The Knicks had the second worst record and ended up picking 4 for KP and that is where the little luck came in.

Yes I’m not optimistic I know because it’s the Knicks. How can you be until they show you.

Your ask for a tank and also the want to play young guys (with your assumption that the young guys DIDN'T play) does not meet with reality and what happened during the season.

The Knicks were above .500 through mid December. They were playing KP, THJr, Frank, Kanter, KOQ, McD, Baker very regular minutes; those are all young guys. And yes, they were playing Lee, Jack, Beas too.

You just don't start Frank in that setting, nor can you realistically sit Lee/THJr to play Dotson in that circumstance.

THjr went down at the beginning of Dec, KP went down in Feb.

Since mid-Dec, they were tied for the worst record in the league. Your definition of tank as it regards to records.

That's the reality of the team. Did best to win and exceeded expectations at beginning of year, "tanked" the rest of the way. Did they maximize playing ALL the very youngest? No. But their record wouldn't have been much different. C'est la vie.

according to Vmart your real world example doesnt matter and only illustrates how the KNicks are bad at making the playoffs OR at tanking.. "they cant do ANYTHING right."

Vmart what do you think "my vision" is?

While Mills has been here awhile its never been his team. He's hired a regarded and real NBA GM in Perry. They are saying they want to rebuild using the draft, they want build a core of young players that can grow together. They want a coach who will embrace "the new NBA" as well as its players and how best to develop them. That includes analytics.

What would YOU do to turn this around? Real world man.. do tell. What is your play to tank if you are handed a roster with Lee, LAnce, Noah, Melo, etc.. all signed for multiple years. Just sit em and play the kids?

Frank got 22mpg in 78 games.
This front office found us Burke off the scrap heap and he looks like an NBA PG who can run a team.
They had plans for Hicks/Dotson/Kornet/Burke all looked worth looking at.
Not high on Mudiay but it was a good trade to look at a guy when you know you are not signing McD

VMart, Jordan Hill nothing to do with this front office. Dolan has never allowed a rebuild and has never granted "patience." They have done a good job this year cleaning out the old and bringing in the new. Not sure what your expectation is but yea man its a fan site... so when you constantly post "they will probably take another Jordan Hill" and "they will probably move back" and "they will probably do something stupid" well yea man... that crap gets old. You arent even saying anything man... you are just farting and walking away.

martin
Posts: 47491
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
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4/13/2018  12:28 PM
Also, as a follow-up, the Knicks SAT NOAH PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE SEASON.

A lot of it had to do with Noah's suspension and his own general stupidity, but that's a BIG sit for a vet..... so that they could play Kanter and KOQ.

Willy was his own worst nightmare, should have WANTED to play GLeague minutes and destroyed that league so that the team had zero choice but to play him more minutes in the big show.

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fishmike
Posts: 48783
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Member: #298
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4/13/2018  2:23 PM
martin wrote:Also, as a follow-up, the Knicks SAT NOAH PRETTY MUCH THE ENTIRE SEASON.

A lot of it had to do with Noah's suspension and his own general stupidity, but that's a BIG sit for a vet..... so that they could play Kanter and KOQ.

Willy was his own worst nightmare, should have WANTED to play GLeague minutes and destroyed that league so that the team had zero choice but to play him more minutes in the big show.

its really tough. We will when Jeff gets his next job. The the stories will surface about his negatives. You wont hear them now because he was just fired and you just dont do that.

I liked Jeff but he was certainly nothing special and even though Mills isnt new to MSG he is to this role and its once again a new FO. They keep talking about building and being patient and wanting a coach they can see being here 3-5 years down the road. Lets see.

Nalod
Posts: 55712
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4/13/2018  2:53 PM
Martin, good reconstruction of real time. Not doubt season is disappointing and frustrating but when you look at the team in real time instead of hindsight you see that
we pretty much tanked when hope was lost. When Timmy went down we started the decline. The hope in real time was:

Team can get a bit better on the road.
Timmy will return and continue to improve. He started erratic and then started having better games.
Old knicks would have panicked and traded for a vet to try to save the season.
Mckinsey? I think Dolan perverted the process by hiring Phil. Im not sure he set the franchise back other than Noah.
Dolan moved away from the team. We still had melo in decline and deficit of draft picks. While the record is not good, we are in a better position now then three years ago.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
martin
Posts: 47491
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
4/13/2018  4:01 PM
Nalod wrote:Martin, good reconstruction of real time. Not doubt season is disappointing and frustrating but when you look at the team in real time instead of hindsight you see that
we pretty much tanked when hope was lost. When Timmy went down we started the decline. The hope in real time was:

Team can get a bit better on the road.
Timmy will return and continue to improve. He started erratic and then started having better games.
Old knicks would have panicked and traded for a vet to try to save the season.
Mckinsey? I think Dolan perverted the process by hiring Phil. Im not sure he set the franchise back other than Noah.
Dolan moved away from the team. We still had melo in decline and deficit of draft picks. While the record is not good, we are in a better position now then three years ago.

Here's another take for you and TOTALLY in hindsight. Outside of getting to the playoffs, what type of season would be best for the Knicks at the beginning of the season?

1) Play Frank consistently. CHECK
2) See how KP responds to being The Man. CHECK (didn't sustain his first 2-3 months and that first month was astonishing).
3) Fail after that so that they can still get a high enough draft pick.

That would have been my script outside of KP lasting a full season at a high level.

The other take is to tank for the full season while KP is awful so that they can get a top 3 pick.

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This is just a stupid losing organization

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