BRIGGS wrote:Just in our own division for the next 7-8 years. I don't know how well find the talent philly has. The bottom line is the pain they went through was worth it. The chances and patience they had was worth it. They also like Bremen said tonight cut ties quick w high picks. This is going to be a championship team if healthy one day soon-- wish we could've taken the same path.

So its been done twice in recent history with great defensive teams. You are too busy looking at young skinny boys like Trey and you have lost your way. You build a top flight defense. Knicks already have KP. Who cares if it takes us 3 years to get him healthy. That means at age 25 he's a force.

Knicks are actually on the right path to usurp that mantle that has you quaking in your boots. You build a long defensive team that can defend any team. you have KP and Frank who both have elite potential defensively. If you have a draft choice between some 6 foot 180 pound PG or a guy like Mikal Bridges its not even up for debate. Bridges is a +40% shooter from 3 and can guard 4 spots in the NBA. He's got to beef up a bit, but not too much. Tayshawn Prince would be a PF in the NBA today.

Not really a Wendall Carter buyer, but if Bomba fell that would be another. Knicks brought in Dotson, they pounced on Troy Williams, the moved McDermot for Mudiay.. not a huge fan of Mudiay but its another move to get more athletic. I am starting to have some confidence in this front office because I see a trend to get longer and more athletic and get guys who have defensive potential. Burke is an anomoly here but he is a play maker and a shot maker. At some point you gotta get the ball in the basket. Kornet is another headsy look. Another super long guy who can stretch the floor. He could really be a weapon for 12-15 a night off the bench. Remember how good Novak looked during those runs? Could see Kornet in that role.

Point is you are a wanker. Open your eyes and the evidence is self evident. Is KP as good as KG? No. But the Knicks could be on the their way to building a squad that has the size and length to suffocate anyone. We are not there yet, but it has to start somewhere. Even a guy like Kanter... if you cover his weaknesses he becomes a force.

Knicks are infantile. Its early. KP is on crutches. Frank doesnt shave and has never lifted weights. Lee/Noah/Lance are on the books for 2 more years. If Lee and Lance are here they are going to play. This isnt a video game. These are grown men and they have careers and you dont create a positive culture by dicking around respected veterans. But they are here to be passed over by better younger talent. Point is its not going to happen overnight. Like with Philly it will probably take 4-5 years. KP will be 26. Frank would be 25. They might be the two leaders of the best defensive team in the league. That should be the goal. (not the commitment to Frank/KP, but the best defensive part)

Anyway its 100% doable and part of what has swung me to a positive view of this FO is I think they are looking at it the same way. Versatile athletic guys with 2 way potential.

I dont need Trey Young with my lottery pick or to give Isiah Thomas a max contract. My G league guy just dropped 42/12. I am drafting long 2 way athletic guys with elite upside on D. Please be there at 9 Mikal... please

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Just in our own division for the next 7-8 years. I don't know how well find the talent philly has. The bottom line is the pain they went through was worth it. The chances and patience they had was worth it. They also like Bremen said tonight cut ties quick w high picks. This is going to be a championship team if healthy one day soon-- wish we could've taken the same path.

what a weak ass defeatist attitude. There most certainly IS a way. Its been done before. Twice in fact. You do it by building the best defensive team in the NBA. Detroit did that and utterly dismantled a 56 win Lakers team with Shaq/Kobe/Payton/Malone/Fox/Fisher/etc... Boston did it as well blowing through Lebron's Cavs, Chauncey's Pistons, and the 57 win Laker team with Kobe/Gasol/Bynum.

So its been done twice in recent history with great defensive teams. You are too busy looking at young skinny boys like Trey and you have lost your way. You build a top flight defense. Knicks already have KP. Who cares if it takes us 3 years to get him healthy. That means at age 25 he's a force.

Knicks are actually on the right path to usurp that mantle that has you quaking in your boots. You build a long defensive team that can defend any team. you have KP and Frank who both have elite potential defensively. If you have a draft choice between some 6 foot 180 pound PG or a guy like Mikal Bridges its not even up for debate. Bridges is a +40% shooter from 3 and can guard 4 spots in the NBA. He's got to beef up a bit, but not too much. Tayshawn Prince would be a PF in the NBA today.

Not really a Wendall Carter buyer, but if Bomba fell that would be another. Knicks brought in Dotson, they pounced on Troy Williams, the moved McDermot for Mudiay.. not a huge fan of Mudiay but its another move to get more athletic. I am starting to have some confidence in this front office because I see a trend to get longer and more athletic and get guys who have defensive potential. Burke is an anomoly here but he is a play maker and a shot maker. At some point you gotta get the ball in the basket. Kornet is another headsy look. Another super long guy who can stretch the floor. He could really be a weapon for 12-15 a night off the bench. Remember how good Novak looked during those runs? Could see Kornet in that role.

Point is you are a wanker. Open your eyes and the evidence is self evident. Is KP as good as KG? No. But the Knicks could be on the their way to building a squad that has the size and length to suffocate anyone. We are not there yet, but it has to start somewhere. Even a guy like Kanter... if you cover his weaknesses he becomes a force.

Knicks are infantile. Its early. KP is on crutches. Frank doesnt shave and has never lifted weights. Lee/Noah/Lance are on the books for 2 more years. If Lee and Lance are here they are going to play. This isnt a video game. These are grown men and they have careers and you dont create a positive culture by dicking around respected veterans. But they are here to be passed over by better younger talent. Point is its not going to happen overnight. Like with Philly it will probably take 4-5 years. KP will be 26. Frank would be 25. They might be the two leaders of the best defensive team in the league. That should be the goal. (not the commitment to Frank/KP, but the best defensive part)

Anyway its 100% doable and part of what has swung me to a positive view of this FO is I think they are looking at it the same way. Versatile athletic guys with 2 way potential.

I dont need Trey Young with my lottery pick or to give Isiah Thomas a max contract. My G league guy just dropped 42/12. I am drafting long 2 way athletic guys with elite upside on D. Please be there at 9 Mikal... please

Cocaine is a helluva drug

Briggs, you are the one here consistently changing your mind. One minute you want to stay the course with our young core, the next you say offer IT a big contact, the next you say we can't compete with Boston and Philly so blow it up. You are the type of fan who can't stay one course. All fishmike is saying is stay the course and build. You have agreed with this many times in the year. Now you are saying this type of thinking means you're on drugs??? I really don't think you can judge this way of thinking. I refuse to make the same knee-jerk reactions where i judge our team game by game or opponent by opponent. You should follow suit. This team is being built over the long haul, yet you have a new direction for this team after every single game.

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Just in our own division for the next 7-8 years. I don't know how well find the talent philly has. The bottom line is the pain they went through was worth it. The chances and patience they had was worth it. They also like Bremen said tonight cut ties quick w high picks. This is going to be a championship team if healthy one day soon-- wish we could've taken the same path.

what a weak ass defeatist attitude. There most certainly IS a way. Its been done before. Twice in fact. You do it by building the best defensive team in the NBA. Detroit did that and utterly dismantled a 56 win Lakers team with Shaq/Kobe/Payton/Malone/Fox/Fisher/etc... Boston did it as well blowing through Lebron's Cavs, Chauncey's Pistons, and the 57 win Laker team with Kobe/Gasol/Bynum.

So its been done twice in recent history with great defensive teams. You are too busy looking at young skinny boys like Trey and you have lost your way. You build a top flight defense. Knicks already have KP. Who cares if it takes us 3 years to get him healthy. That means at age 25 he's a force.

Knicks are actually on the right path to usurp that mantle that has you quaking in your boots. You build a long defensive team that can defend any team. you have KP and Frank who both have elite potential defensively. If you have a draft choice between some 6 foot 180 pound PG or a guy like Mikal Bridges its not even up for debate. Bridges is a +40% shooter from 3 and can guard 4 spots in the NBA. He's got to beef up a bit, but not too much. Tayshawn Prince would be a PF in the NBA today.

Not really a Wendall Carter buyer, but if Bomba fell that would be another. Knicks brought in Dotson, they pounced on Troy Williams, the moved McDermot for Mudiay.. not a huge fan of Mudiay but its another move to get more athletic. I am starting to have some confidence in this front office because I see a trend to get longer and more athletic and get guys who have defensive potential. Burke is an anomoly here but he is a play maker and a shot maker. At some point you gotta get the ball in the basket. Kornet is another headsy look. Another super long guy who can stretch the floor. He could really be a weapon for 12-15 a night off the bench. Remember how good Novak looked during those runs? Could see Kornet in that role.

Point is you are a wanker. Open your eyes and the evidence is self evident. Is KP as good as KG? No. But the Knicks could be on the their way to building a squad that has the size and length to suffocate anyone. We are not there yet, but it has to start somewhere. Even a guy like Kanter... if you cover his weaknesses he becomes a force.

Knicks are infantile. Its early. KP is on crutches. Frank doesnt shave and has never lifted weights. Lee/Noah/Lance are on the books for 2 more years. If Lee and Lance are here they are going to play. This isnt a video game. These are grown men and they have careers and you dont create a positive culture by dicking around respected veterans. But they are here to be passed over by better younger talent. Point is its not going to happen overnight. Like with Philly it will probably take 4-5 years. KP will be 26. Frank would be 25. They might be the two leaders of the best defensive team in the league. That should be the goal. (not the commitment to Frank/KP, but the best defensive part)

Anyway its 100% doable and part of what has swung me to a positive view of this FO is I think they are looking at it the same way. Versatile athletic guys with 2 way potential.

I dont need Trey Young with my lottery pick or to give Isiah Thomas a max contract. My G league guy just dropped 42/12. I am drafting long 2 way athletic guys with elite upside on D. Please be there at 9 Mikal... please

Cocaine is a helluva drug

rinse wash repeat... switch to weed man. Much easier on the other humans around you

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:Just in our own division for the next 7-8 years. I don't know how well find the talent philly has. The bottom line is the pain they went through was worth it. The chances and patience they had was worth it. They also like Bremen said tonight cut ties quick w high picks. This is going to be a championship team if healthy one day soon-- wish we could've taken the same path.

what a weak ass defeatist attitude. There most certainly IS a way. Its been done before. Twice in fact. You do it by building the best defensive team in the NBA. Detroit did that and utterly dismantled a 56 win Lakers team with Shaq/Kobe/Payton/Malone/Fox/Fisher/etc... Boston did it as well blowing through Lebron's Cavs, Chauncey's Pistons, and the 57 win Laker team with Kobe/Gasol/Bynum.

So its been done twice in recent history with great defensive teams. You are too busy looking at young skinny boys like Trey and you have lost your way. You build a top flight defense. Knicks already have KP. Who cares if it takes us 3 years to get him healthy. That means at age 25 he's a force.

Knicks are actually on the right path to usurp that mantle that has you quaking in your boots. You build a long defensive team that can defend any team. you have KP and Frank who both have elite potential defensively. If you have a draft choice between some 6 foot 180 pound PG or a guy like Mikal Bridges its not even up for debate. Bridges is a +40% shooter from 3 and can guard 4 spots in the NBA. He's got to beef up a bit, but not too much. Tayshawn Prince would be a PF in the NBA today.

Not really a Wendall Carter buyer, but if Bomba fell that would be another. Knicks brought in Dotson, they pounced on Troy Williams, the moved McDermot for Mudiay.. not a huge fan of Mudiay but its another move to get more athletic. I am starting to have some confidence in this front office because I see a trend to get longer and more athletic and get guys who have defensive potential. Burke is an anomoly here but he is a play maker and a shot maker. At some point you gotta get the ball in the basket. Kornet is another headsy look. Another super long guy who can stretch the floor. He could really be a weapon for 12-15 a night off the bench. Remember how good Novak looked during those runs? Could see Kornet in that role.

Point is you are a wanker. Open your eyes and the evidence is self evident. Is KP as good as KG? No. But the Knicks could be on the their way to building a squad that has the size and length to suffocate anyone. We are not there yet, but it has to start somewhere. Even a guy like Kanter... if you cover his weaknesses he becomes a force.

Knicks are infantile. Its early. KP is on crutches. Frank doesnt shave and has never lifted weights. Lee/Noah/Lance are on the books for 2 more years. If Lee and Lance are here they are going to play. This isnt a video game. These are grown men and they have careers and you dont create a positive culture by dicking around respected veterans. But they are here to be passed over by better younger talent. Point is its not going to happen overnight. Like with Philly it will probably take 4-5 years. KP will be 26. Frank would be 25. They might be the two leaders of the best defensive team in the league. That should be the goal. (not the commitment to Frank/KP, but the best defensive part)

Anyway its 100% doable and part of what has swung me to a positive view of this FO is I think they are looking at it the same way. Versatile athletic guys with 2 way potential.

I dont need Trey Young with my lottery pick or to give Isiah Thomas a max contract. My G league guy just dropped 42/12. I am drafting long 2 way athletic guys with elite upside on D. Please be there at 9 Mikal... please

Cocaine is a helluva drug

Briggs, you are the one here consistently changing your mind. One minute you want to stay the course with our young core, the next you say offer IT a big contact, the next you say we can't compete with Boston and Philly so blow it up. You are the type of fan who can't stay one course. All fishmike is saying is stay the course and build. You have agreed with this many times in the year. Now you are saying this type of thinking means you're on drugs??? I really don't think you can judge this way of thinking. I refuse to make the same knee-jerk reactions where i judge our team game by game or opponent by opponent. You should follow suit. This team is being built over the long haul, yet you have a new direction for this team after every single game.

No I said lets watch IT for the year--thats just the facts. Mike Breen made a great great point last night--Philly DID NOT stay the course on Ok4 Noel and Williams and was right in every case. I do NOT want a one option course. You tale out different scenarios and than you eventually rate them 1-6 or whatever. No way am I set on one idea right now

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:this is the first year of a new front office. This is the first time since I have followed the Knicks (late 80s) the world rebuild has ever been used. The only vets this FO has brought in are ones willing to work with young players, which Jack/Beasley (Sessions was also) were. The only commitment was to Hardaway who at $17mm is... OK. Kanter is 25 and has had some huge games vs. Embiid already so Im not sure what you are looking at there aside from the usual sky is falling.

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

The only strategy here should be how to build around KP successfully so we are a playoff-bound team when he is 100% healthy by surrounding him with good, young pieces. Any reaction from Briggs and others alike who say offer IT a big contract, blow it all up by trading KP, or whatever will always be a knee-jerk reaction to another lost season in the win-column. That is what rebuilding is, taking the lumps until you get it right. KP has an entire career ahead of him, there is no rush or need to make another franchise-altering direction. We know what the direction of the front office is, adding talent in the 20-25 age range and hope to hit on some of them. Debating other directions after each game is pointless.

There havent been any quick fix moves to make the playoffs. Were stockpiling picks. G league development is having a positive impact on the team. Players and mgmt are more or less on the same page. This is how its done.

fishmike wrote:this is the first year of a new front office. This is the first time since I have followed the Knicks (late 80s) the world rebuild has ever been used. The only vets this FO has brought in are ones willing to work with young players, which Jack/Beasley (Sessions was also) were. The only commitment was to Hardaway who at $17mm is... OK. Kanter is 25 and has had some huge games vs. Embiid already so Im not sure what you are looking at there aside from the usual sky is falling.

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

So what exactly do you call what walsh do.

You think sitting on your hands waiting for the lottery is how your going to get better(is that your love affair with the process), it takes trades, FA, coaching, gambles, luck, and a commitment to winning

Has this front office proven they are capaable of that?

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:this is the first year of a new front office. This is the first time since I have followed the Knicks (late 80s) the world rebuild has ever been used. The only vets this FO has brought in are ones willing to work with young players, which Jack/Beasley (Sessions was also) were. The only commitment was to Hardaway who at $17mm is... OK. Kanter is 25 and has had some huge games vs. Embiid already so Im not sure what you are looking at there aside from the usual sky is falling.

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

The only strategy here should be how to build around KP successfully so we are a playoff-bound team when he is 100% healthy by surrounding him with good, young pieces. Any reaction from Briggs and others alike who say offer IT a big contract, blow it all up by trading KP, or whatever will always be a knee-jerk reaction to another lost season in the win-column. That is what rebuilding is, taking the lumps until you get it right. KP has an entire career ahead of him, there is no rush or need to make another franchise-altering direction. We know what the direction of the front office is, adding talent in the 20-25 age range and hope to hit on some of them. Debating other directions after each game is pointless.

There havent been any quick fix moves to make the playoffs. Were stockpiling picks. G league development is having a positive impact on the team. Players and mgmt are more or less on the same page. This is how its done.

Exactly right. But because we aren't the Celtics or Sixers already, we must be doing it all wrong!!!

To add: For me, how the front office handles the next 2 drafts, KOQ/Kanter/Lee over the next 2 seasons, mid-level signings, free agent cap space signings in 2019 will tell us a lot about their capability.

Knixkik wrote:

martin wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

fishmike wrote:this is the first year of a new front office. This is the first time since I have followed the Knicks (late 80s) the world rebuild has ever been used. The only vets this FO has brought in are ones willing to work with young players, which Jack/Beasley (Sessions was also) were. The only commitment was to Hardaway who at $17mm is... OK. Kanter is 25 and has had some huge games vs. Embiid already so Im not sure what you are looking at there aside from the usual sky is falling.

Knicks are NOT where Boston or Philly are. There is no relevance in comparing them. You mentioned Noel, OK, Williams... How long where all those guys in Phili? Longer than the 12 minutes your ideas last.

The only strategy here should be how to build around KP successfully so we are a playoff-bound team when he is 100% healthy by surrounding him with good, young pieces. Any reaction from Briggs and others alike who say offer IT a big contract, blow it all up by trading KP, or whatever will always be a knee-jerk reaction to another lost season in the win-column. That is what rebuilding is, taking the lumps until you get it right. KP has an entire career ahead of him, there is no rush or need to make another franchise-altering direction. We know what the direction of the front office is, adding talent in the 20-25 age range and hope to hit on some of them. Debating other directions after each game is pointless.

There havent been any quick fix moves to make the playoffs. Were stockpiling picks. G league development is having a positive impact on the team. Players and mgmt are more or less on the same page. This is how its done.

Exactly right. But because we aren't the Celtics or Sixers already, we must be doing it all wrong!!!

To add: For me, how the front office handles the next 2 drafts, KOQ/Kanter/Lee over the next 2 seasons, mid-level signings, free agent cap space signings in 2019 will tell us a lot about their capability.

Next 2 drafts will be make or break for this organization moving forward.

For me: Kanter/KOQ/Lee

The most obvious findings of advanced analytics have been the impressive marginal returns of strong 3 point shooting at the 4 and 5 positions, and the value of multi-positional defensive versatility. From this sprouted the vaguer term of “positionless basketball.” Like all analysis, the findings may lead to over and under-valuations of certain player categories, including the often binarized “stars” and “3 and D” role players. The reality is that each player operates on a spectrum, and more precisely defining the value of draft picks requieres further improvement of models assessing both the player’s skill/physical trajectory and the positional competitive space.

Part of the reason tanking teams have not improved despite high draft picks is the undervaluation of 3 and D prospects, who generally are easier to project. It’s the relative lower risk of these players that adds premium to their value in the draft, especially if the “3 and D” characterization imprecisely discounts some intermediate offensive capabilities, which may add value in specific team contexts.

On the other hand, an over-reaction to the 3 and D fallout may result in risk aversion to players with asymmetric but large productivity i.e. apparent 1 way players. In my opinion, this is causing a gross under-valuation of Trey Young, who I hope falls to us at 9. Of course, there’s an associated risk, but it’s when to take the home run swing that remains unclear, and why the draft continues to be both unpredictable and influential.