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Knicks are done for multi years
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meloshouldgo
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3/7/2018  7:58 PM
Heihei perfectly expresses Briggy's view of the Knicks. SMH

I cannot teach anybody anything. I can only try to make them think - Socrates
AUTOADVERT
Knixkik
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3/7/2018  9:06 PM
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.

Good post. These young guys are impossible to project as franchise players. There hasn't been a franchise level player drafted at the 2 pick since Durant, unless you count oladipo. These types are hard to find. Porzingis is still that, even with the injuries. Built on what we have is the best option.

BRIGGS
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3/8/2018  1:08 AM
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.

If anything Ashton has risen in my eyes.Clear number 1 pick with the physical profile to dominate. Yes it’s a different game— but I’ll take Aayton in the middle please. Boy I can only hope we can have the discussion!

smackeddog
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3/8/2018  3:25 AM
We have our top pick this year, we should have a top 10 pick next season, so we're on the right track
codeunknown
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3/8/2018  5:06 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.

If anything Ashton has risen in my eyes.Clear number 1 pick with the physical profile to dominate. Yes it’s a different game— but I’ll take Aayton in the middle please. Boy I can only hope we can have the discussion!

Ashton has done well after his split from Bruce’s ex, but he still doesn’t make it into my top 5.

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
Paris907
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3/8/2018  6:26 AM
Briggs- not long Ago you considered Trae Young the transformative Messiah, the coming of Stephan II. Sure, it’s touch medicine to build brick by brick when Mudiay and Frank throw up brick after brick. Whether Ayers, or Bagley or Bamba they are real good solid NBA stars in the making. Pick one and grow your interior. KP comes back and yes will require a year to regain form. And at some point - if Frank can become aggressive offensively and we pick up a stud this year, then when KP does come back in force 2 years, then and only then can we secure a Free agent to fill our needs as a final starter. The rest: Dotson, Mudiay, Beas, Burke, etc need to show that they can be contributors in an NBA rotation. In two years Noah, Lee, Thomas, KOQ, will be gone - and Tim will be the veteran.
Knixkik
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3/8/2018  9:00 AM
Paris907 wrote:Briggs- not long Ago you considered Trae Young the transformative Messiah, the coming of Stephan II. Sure, it’s touch medicine to build brick by brick when Mudiay and Frank throw up brick after brick. Whether Ayers, or Bagley or Bamba they are real good solid NBA stars in the making. Pick one and grow your interior. KP comes back and yes will require a year to regain form. And at some point - if Frank can become aggressive offensively and we pick up a stud this year, then when KP does come back in force 2 years, then and only then can we secure a Free agent to fill our needs as a final starter. The rest: Dotson, Mudiay, Beas, Burke, etc need to show that they can be contributors in an NBA rotation. In two years Noah, Lee, Thomas, KOQ, will be gone - and Tim will be the veteran.

Next year will be an evaluation year for Frank, Mudiay, Dotson, Burke, and Kanter. Frank more-so to determine his position and fit. The only guaranteed pieces moving forward are KP, Frank, Hardaway, and the upcoming 1st round pick. Everything else is fluid. The injury to KP, if anything, provides time to be a bad team for another year, but also evaluate this entire group. Rebuilding is difficult, and we see how someone like Briggs will make his 'throw in the towel'-type posts. This is rebuilding.

franco12
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3/8/2018  9:52 AM
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

That is the definition of compounding a mistake with another. That is where this franchise has gone wrong for years. There is no quick fix for our problem, short of Dolan selling the team tomorrow.

The best hope for the current situation is Hornacek can be some kind of horse whisperer and turn Mudiay and Frank into solid 3 pt threats, and we add talent this year and next in the draft.

And then that group starts to gel and turn into something- and between those picks and KP, someone makes the case to be considered a franchise type player.

But trading KP to clear cap to try to sign someone, we already did that with Amar'e and that set our franchise back.

Nalod
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3/8/2018  10:47 AM
Many of todays allstars needed a few years to really shine. Even Oladipo had to find the right situation after his game matured.
Fans like Briggs love the idea of talent acquisition but lack the patience to see it thru.
Its simple to say "we need stars". Easy to say "build thru the draft"!. Easy to say "create cap space"......
Its all a balance act that requires talent, luck (opportunities) and time.
Patience is rare among fans. Briggs for all his self proclaimed knowledge is no different than most other fans. They want to "get behind their guys" but when things go awry, its depressing. If one is prone to mood swings this is even harder. Im not expert in the matter but Briggs like many others show their sides thru their posts. Me included!!!
Most fans are not "convinced" until the very thing is in front of them. Since we deal against the odds its easy to be "right" when things go wrong. KP down was not shocking to many of us as we are prone to negative thoughts!!!
Milwaukee is an interesting study with Giannis. Taken 15th his star is rising and the expectation is also. He is becoming quite a player but Milwaukee is still an unbalanced roster and they have had injury problems.
There are no parallels to what we are experiencing.
I take comfort in the decision making process and the hope that it adds up in the long run. Its all I got.
You don't show a fool a job half done!
fishmike
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3/8/2018  11:03 AM
smackeddog wrote:We have our top pick this year, we should have a top 10 pick next season, so we're on the right track
right. Briggs is a spazz and both he and dog are correct. We are doing things right. We are looking hard at young talent. We are no trading picks or prospects for short term solutions.

And yes... we are probably gonna stink for multiple years. Thats ok, because our stinking will enable us to finally fill this roster with young talented players. You dont do that in one offseason starting from square 1 and owing first rounders.

Briggs is right. We are done for multi years. It seems the FO also understands this which is the first step in changing it. Now we suck and we are filling the cupboard. Before we just sucked with more sucking in the queue.

GustavBahler
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3/8/2018  11:18 AM
As long as we are improving, I dont care. We werent going to become instant contenders. We would probably end up with a lot of retreads going that route.

As soon as the team figures out who is going to be the starting PG going forward, thats when the journey starts IMO. Who that person will be has yet to be determined.

Look how things took off once we got Mark Jackson, someone to form a one two punch with Ewing. Even after Jax was traded, the momentum kept building.

Sort the PG situation out for the next 3-4 years, and the Knicks will see better days ahead.

nykshaknbake
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3/9/2018  7:18 PM
The short and medium term outlook isn't very rosy. Heard an interview with Nate Robinson on WFAN. The reputation among players of the Knicks is that we are cursed. That and are cap situation probably precludes from making any great signings of top players. We could get lucky and land someone who has yet to blossom, but more likely we just continue to overpay for mediocrity(see THJ and Noah). We need to land a bonafide star in the next 2 drafts. Otherwise it'll be time to pay KP and we'll be stuck with surrounding him with trash.

I don't think any GM has a more difficult job ahead than Perry. He has to deal with all this and the strong possibility Mills will periodically come and screw everything up with another bad signing.

nykshaknbake
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3/9/2018  7:18 PM
meloshouldgo wrote:Heihei perfectly expresses Briggy's view of the Knicks. SMH

You need to seek help with your chicken fetish.

knickscity
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3/10/2018  7:58 AM
Mudiay for the most part has looked like garbage, but I have no issue with the Knicks acquiring him to see if he can develop into something for such low cost. if they keep doing that, they may luck up on something.
VCoug
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3/10/2018  8:52 AM
Knixkik wrote:
Paris907 wrote:Briggs- not long Ago you considered Trae Young the transformative Messiah, the coming of Stephan II. Sure, it’s touch medicine to build brick by brick when Mudiay and Frank throw up brick after brick. Whether Ayers, or Bagley or Bamba they are real good solid NBA stars in the making. Pick one and grow your interior. KP comes back and yes will require a year to regain form. And at some point - if Frank can become aggressive offensively and we pick up a stud this year, then when KP does come back in force 2 years, then and only then can we secure a Free agent to fill our needs as a final starter. The rest: Dotson, Mudiay, Beas, Burke, etc need to show that they can be contributors in an NBA rotation. In two years Noah, Lee, Thomas, KOQ, will be gone - and Tim will be the veteran.

Next year will be an evaluation year for Frank, Mudiay, Dotson, Burke, and Kanter. Frank more-so to determine his position and fit. The only guaranteed pieces moving forward are KP, Frank, Hardaway, and the upcoming 1st round pick. Everything else is fluid. The injury to KP, if anything, provides time to be a bad team for another year, but also evaluate this entire group. Rebuilding is difficult, and we see how someone like Briggs will make his 'throw in the towel'-type posts. This is rebuilding.

What is there still to evaluate about Katner? He's played 11,000 minutes over 7 years. He is what he is at this point, a very good scorer and rebounder and a terrible defender at the most important defensive position.

Knicksfans Forzingis!
newyorker4ever
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3/10/2018  4:08 PM
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.


There's so much wrong in this post that i don't even want to point it all out...lol

BRIGGS
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3/10/2018  5:34 PM
newyorker4ever wrote:
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.


There's so much wrong in this post that i don't even want to point it all out...lol

Theres no way youd take him after 6=7 different guys--clearly the number 1 pick with the profile to build around. One thing I can say pretty reasonably--Aayton is going 1. Now do we have a modicum of luck here?

codeunknown
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3/10/2018  5:50 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/10/2018  5:52 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.


There's so much wrong in this post that i don't even want to point it all out...lol

Theres no way youd take him after 6=7 different guys--clearly the number 1 pick with the profile to build around. One thing I can say pretty reasonably--Aayton is going 1. Now do we have a modicum of luck here?

Not to target you, Briggs, in particular, but its absurd even on its face to switch your predictions with the frequency that you do and then claim at every time point that your point of view is unimpeachable. Within this very thread (or the tank thread), I believe, you claim that Young and Bagley were the real prizes of the draft. Its ok to be wrong as even the best forecasters will miss, but its ridiculous to beat your chest at each time point without acknowledging the uncertainty that so quickly changes your very predictions. Not to mention the humility to realize that others may well interpret the data better than you.

Why is Ayton surefire to you, given the alternatives? Where does he project? Is there a comparison you see? Where do his college numbers translate, and where do they fall short? In what system, does he potentially succeed of fail to reach the estimated potential?

Sh-t in the popcorn to go with sh-t on the court. Its a theme show like Medieval times.
Knixkik
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3/10/2018  5:52 PM
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.


There's so much wrong in this post that i don't even want to point it all out...lol

Theres no way youd take him after 6=7 different guys--clearly the number 1 pick with the profile to build around. One thing I can say pretty reasonably--Aayton is going 1. Now do we have a modicum of luck here?

Aayton is the best prospect no doubt. He's not a sure fire franchise player though. A lot of good players in this draft but each has their share of issues. Aayton doesn't impact the game defensively like I would want to see, but I'm sure he will improve in that area.

BRIGGS
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3/10/2018  6:39 PM
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
newyorker4ever wrote:
codeunknown wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:
franco12 wrote:
BRIGGS wrote:Unless a miracle--we are so far behind young teams like Philly Boston and Milwaukee that it will take a generational cycle to cleanse

I hear you! I had hopes earlier in the season. Seemed like we had something. Then Puff! Gone!

You're right that we are far behind those teams. I don't see how we build something halfway decent in the next 3 years.

KP is not the answer. Our Batman Franchise player is still not here. Doubt we are getting them in the draft where we are picking.

So, when does that player get here? 2019? And then they are 19, and need 3-5 years to develop. So, we're looking at 2022-2024? WTF?

Briggs is right. Patience only gets us through the suffering, doesn't actually fix anything.

I think Brooklyn makes it to the playoffs before we do. How about that! And actually, taking a look at the teams not making the playoffs- has any of them been as bad as we've been for as long as we have?

We're not fans, we're masochists.

Terrible position. One of the chances will come soon. Maybe the Gods will give us pick #1 and we do get Aayton. Id build around him with vets and do what I could to unleash mega cap space including trading KP. So there is our 2% chance.

Don’t agree about Ayton. He looks decent, but not better than KP. I’m fact, I’d take him after Young, Porter, Bagley, Bamba, and Jackson. I think our pieces are decent at this stage of the rebuild - I still like Frank as a starting point guard on a championship level team and KP, as well. We need high level playmakers and Young and Porter are the best in the draft imo. If we land either and it will take luck, I like our ability to compete down the line. Next year’s pick should allow more reinforcements.


There's so much wrong in this post that i don't even want to point it all out...lol

Theres no way youd take him after 6=7 different guys--clearly the number 1 pick with the profile to build around. One thing I can say pretty reasonably--Aayton is going 1. Now do we have a modicum of luck here?

Not to target you, Briggs, in particular, but its absurd even on its face to switch your predictions with the frequency that you do and then claim at every time point that your point of view is unimpeachable. Within this very thread (or the tank thread), I believe, you claim that Young and Bagley were the real prizes of the draft. Its ok to be wrong as even the best forecasters will miss, but its ridiculous to beat your chest at each time point without acknowledging the uncertainty that so quickly changes your very predictions. Not to mention the humility to realize that others may well interpret the data better than you.

Why is Ayton surefire to you, given the alternatives? Where does he project? Is there a comparison you see? Where do his college numbers translate, and where do they fall short? In what system, does he potentially succeed of fail to reach the estimated potential?

No chest beating here. I know you know college hoop-- and the draft is a 6 month fluid process so opinions will change But at this point-- atleast to me Aayton is clearly a 1 pick. Hey there was 1 Point I had him 5 didn't think he played hard but he's just gotten better and to me it's not a question anymore

Knicks are done for multi years

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