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I want to get behind these guys
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GustavBahler
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3/5/2018  10:45 AM
BRIGGS wrote:I want to be encouraging as a fan-- but Mudiay has to meet us halfway and make some darn shots. I'm not sure what the asking price for Payton was but he's been light years better than Mudiay in every single category.

Mudiay has the same issues back when we were all talking about the Knicks possibly drafting him. Mudiay doesnt square himself, shoots like someone in a rec league game. Havent seen Mudiay make enough of a case to stay beyond his current deal. Burke on the other hand......

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knicks1248
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3/5/2018  10:46 AM
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:why isn't Burke our starting PG?

Honestly, Frank should be the starting PG. He is the only PG who consistently brings defense to the lineup. Burke and Mudiay are scoring guards, more appropriate for coming off the bench. Frank can always slide over to the SG for much of the game, but he is the guy who brings elite defense to the rotation right now.

Here we go again, dude his defense is not that good enough to overlook is complete lack of offense.

Take for instance FOX on sac, he has played in only 35 games 18min per, while frank has played in 60 games 20 min per, and fox has taken almost twice as many FT and 3's as frank.

Aside from frank, this entire team is just filled with role players, the entire starting line up is consumed by players who should be 6th men, and being coach by a guy who should be an assistant (2 ****ng wins since xmas)

ES
Knixkik
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3/5/2018  10:57 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:why isn't Burke our starting PG?

Honestly, Frank should be the starting PG. He is the only PG who consistently brings defense to the lineup. Burke and Mudiay are scoring guards, more appropriate for coming off the bench. Frank can always slide over to the SG for much of the game, but he is the guy who brings elite defense to the rotation right now.

Here we go again, dude his defense is not that good enough to overlook is complete lack of offense.

Take for instance FOX on sac, he has played in only 35 games 18min per, while frank has played in 60 games 20 min per, and fox has taken almost twice as many FT and 3's as frank.

Aside from frank, this entire team is just filled with role players, the entire starting line up is consumed by players who should be 6th men, and being coach by a guy who should be an assistant (2 ****ng wins since xmas)

But the problem is our other 2 PGs aren't good enough on either side of the ball. Burke can score, but he isn't a starting PG and everyone knows it. Starting Frank at least forces him to be more aggressive on offense. If he is playing next to another PG, he can fit in as a role player, but its too easy for him to hide. He is not good offensively yet, but we have seen some spurts on offense where he shows promise. He may end up being a combo guard moreso than a PG, but at this point in the season, we need to see what he can do with the pressure of running a team.

Nalod
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3/5/2018  11:12 AM
Draft picks, trades, light free agents, have two centers opting out, one oft injured over payed PED abuser turned rouge, and a slew of projects available.
No way can anyone predict what this team will look like next fall to start the season.
Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
knicks1248
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3/5/2018  11:24 AM
Knixkik wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:why isn't Burke our starting PG?

Honestly, Frank should be the starting PG. He is the only PG who consistently brings defense to the lineup. Burke and Mudiay are scoring guards, more appropriate for coming off the bench. Frank can always slide over to the SG for much of the game, but he is the guy who brings elite defense to the rotation right now.

Here we go again, dude his defense is not that good enough to overlook is complete lack of offense.

Take for instance FOX on sac, he has played in only 35 games 18min per, while frank has played in 60 games 20 min per, and fox has taken almost twice as many FT and 3's as frank.

Aside from frank, this entire team is just filled with role players, the entire starting line up is consumed by players who should be 6th men, and being coach by a guy who should be an assistant (2 ****ng wins since xmas)

But the problem is our other 2 PGs aren't good enough on either side of the ball. Burke can score, but he isn't a starting PG and everyone knows it. Starting Frank at least forces him to be more aggressive on offense. If he is playing next to another PG, he can fit in as a role player, but its too easy for him to hide. He is not good offensively yet, but we have seen some spurts on offense where he shows promise. He may end up being a combo guard moreso than a PG, but at this point in the season, we need to see what he can do with the pressure of running a team.

You have seen spurts from beasely, mudiay, burke, troy, willy, kuz, lance, lee, thj, ect. The spurts are not good enough, or long enough for me to fully believe he is going to be a special player, especially in this ERA of the NBA, where guards are the primary scorers on most teams.

He's played in 60 games and scored in double digits just twice. Frank is not in the right system, is not surrounded with the right players/vets, and the coaching staff has no clue on how to develop him.

Take lee for example, coach has given him the green light to launch at will since last season, does he do it, absolutely not, he's still avg 13 points, it's just NOT IN HIS DNA to ply like that, same goes for frank. When the whole team is telling you too shoot, shoot, shoot, and you still make that a 3rd option...that just not your fortay

ES
Swishfm3
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3/5/2018  12:01 PM
EnySpree wrote:This is what rebuilding through youth looks like.... no complaining. Just enjoy what you are seeing. Mudiay is inconsistent. Frank is even worse. Burke is good but he's been over used getting caught up in all these come backs.


Can't really complain guys I dunno what to say. Enjoy what these guys do well and how they can get better realistically. Stop talking in parables and what your 10 year old imagination thinks guys can do.... study the team and see how guys are playing. Losing is what we want right? So why get mad or frustrated? It's ridiculous to do that.

They don't want to read this. They want their "trust the process" moment but complain when the process is not moving fast enough, lol.

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3/5/2018  12:10 PM
martin
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3/5/2018  1:39 PM
I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

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Knixkik
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3/5/2018  1:43 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:why isn't Burke our starting PG?

Honestly, Frank should be the starting PG. He is the only PG who consistently brings defense to the lineup. Burke and Mudiay are scoring guards, more appropriate for coming off the bench. Frank can always slide over to the SG for much of the game, but he is the guy who brings elite defense to the rotation right now.

Here we go again, dude his defense is not that good enough to overlook is complete lack of offense.

Take for instance FOX on sac, he has played in only 35 games 18min per, while frank has played in 60 games 20 min per, and fox has taken almost twice as many FT and 3's as frank.

Aside from frank, this entire team is just filled with role players, the entire starting line up is consumed by players who should be 6th men, and being coach by a guy who should be an assistant (2 ****ng wins since xmas)

But the problem is our other 2 PGs aren't good enough on either side of the ball. Burke can score, but he isn't a starting PG and everyone knows it. Starting Frank at least forces him to be more aggressive on offense. If he is playing next to another PG, he can fit in as a role player, but its too easy for him to hide. He is not good offensively yet, but we have seen some spurts on offense where he shows promise. He may end up being a combo guard moreso than a PG, but at this point in the season, we need to see what he can do with the pressure of running a team.

You have seen spurts from beasely, mudiay, burke, troy, willy, kuz, lance, lee, thj, ect. The spurts are not good enough, or long enough for me to fully believe he is going to be a special player, especially in this ERA of the NBA, where guards are the primary scorers on most teams.

He's played in 60 games and scored in double digits just twice. Frank is not in the right system, is not surrounded with the right players/vets, and the coaching staff has no clue on how to develop him.

Take lee for example, coach has given him the green light to launch at will since last season, does he do it, absolutely not, he's still avg 13 points, it's just NOT IN HIS DNA to ply like that, same goes for frank. When the whole team is telling you too shoot, shoot, shoot, and you still make that a 3rd option...that just not your fortay

Most of the assumptions you are making, you just can't about a 19 year old. Simple as that.

Nalod
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3/5/2018  2:41 PM
Knixkik wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:why isn't Burke our starting PG?

Honestly, Frank should be the starting PG. He is the only PG who consistently brings defense to the lineup. Burke and Mudiay are scoring guards, more appropriate for coming off the bench. Frank can always slide over to the SG for much of the game, but he is the guy who brings elite defense to the rotation right now.

Here we go again, dude his defense is not that good enough to overlook is complete lack of offense.

Take for instance FOX on sac, he has played in only 35 games 18min per, while frank has played in 60 games 20 min per, and fox has taken almost twice as many FT and 3's as frank.

Aside from frank, this entire team is just filled with role players, the entire starting line up is consumed by players who should be 6th men, and being coach by a guy who should be an assistant (2 ****ng wins since xmas)

But the problem is our other 2 PGs aren't good enough on either side of the ball. Burke can score, but he isn't a starting PG and everyone knows it. Starting Frank at least forces him to be more aggressive on offense. If he is playing next to another PG, he can fit in as a role player, but its too easy for him to hide. He is not good offensively yet, but we have seen some spurts on offense where he shows promise. He may end up being a combo guard moreso than a PG, but at this point in the season, we need to see what he can do with the pressure of running a team.

You have seen spurts from beasely, mudiay, burke, troy, willy, kuz, lance, lee, thj, ect. The spurts are not good enough, or long enough for me to fully believe he is going to be a special player, especially in this ERA of the NBA, where guards are the primary scorers on most teams.

He's played in 60 games and scored in double digits just twice. Frank is not in the right system, is not surrounded with the right players/vets, and the coaching staff has no clue on how to develop him.

Take lee for example, coach has given him the green light to launch at will since last season, does he do it, absolutely not, he's still avg 13 points, it's just NOT IN HIS DNA to ply like that, same goes for frank. When the whole team is telling you too shoot, shoot, shoot, and you still make that a 3rd option...that just not your fortay

Most of the assumptions you are making, you just can't about a 19 year old. Simple as that.

kniciks1248 makes "Static" assumptions.
The player will stay the same, coach's will say the same thing, and the roster as well.
Im not sure how most of those thinks can be assumed. Its a very fluid business.
When I look at the film school break downs and see what he does right, it balances out the turnovers and missed shots.
I don't profess a great knowledge to evaluate NBA talent and project their career. So when I ask others that seem to have more confidence in their opinion "why", its not to be snarky (most of the time), but to open up more about how they arrived at that conclusion.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
awe1028
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3/5/2018  3:38 PM
I am absolutely ecstatic the Knicks are falling apart before our very eyes because it means the odds of Hornacek returning is between slim and none. Hornacek being on thin ice is well deserved as quite frankly no pun intended his handling of Frank has been the height of incompetence.

Frank is arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA. He admittedly has some growth to do offensively but IMHO at least except for KP he has the best potential on the team. Jeff is supposed to be the PG whisperer he has a potential impact player on the team and instead of developing him he turns to some player who has shown nothing in 3 years in the NBA and has made him the starter

Jeff is going to ruin this young man Frank and the Knicks need to get Jeff as far away from Frank as soon as possible. This is why I said I am happy Jeff has seemingly lost the team. Not only does it mean we may be able to pass Chicago for slightly better positioning in the draft but it means Jeff will be gone far away from Frank - good riddance

nykshaknbake
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3/5/2018  3:46 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
Knixkik wrote:
franco12 wrote:why isn't Burke our starting PG?

Honestly, Frank should be the starting PG. He is the only PG who consistently brings defense to the lineup. Burke and Mudiay are scoring guards, more appropriate for coming off the bench. Frank can always slide over to the SG for much of the game, but he is the guy who brings elite defense to the rotation right now.

Here we go again, dude his defense is not that good enough to overlook is complete lack of offense.

Take for instance FOX on sac, he has played in only 35 games 18min per, while frank has played in 60 games 20 min per, and fox has taken almost twice as many FT and 3's as frank.

Aside from frank, this entire team is just filled with role players, the entire starting line up is consumed by players who should be 6th men, and being coach by a guy who should be an assistant (2 ****ng wins since xmas)

PG is probably the one spot you can't have a guy that can't create anything. If you can't penetrate and or set up the offense, you can't play the position. It's not like say, center where you can have a mostly defensive asset that can be effective for the team.

EnySpree
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3/5/2018  5:16 PM
Swishfm3 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:This is what rebuilding through youth looks like.... no complaining. Just enjoy what you are seeing. Mudiay is inconsistent. Frank is even worse. Burke is good but he's been over used getting caught up in all these come backs.


Can't really complain guys I dunno what to say. Enjoy what these guys do well and how they can get better realistically. Stop talking in parables and what your 10 year old imagination thinks guys can do.... study the team and see how guys are playing. Losing is what we want right? So why get mad or frustrated? It's ridiculous to do that.

They don't want to read this. They want their "trust the process" moment but complain when the process is not moving fast enough, lol.

Definately can't have it both ways.... KP is gone for a year. Our focus must shift. I was in a win now mode, but now I'm in a let it simmer mode...we have nice young talent and a good gm. This **** is just as fun.

You know why I'm here....
EnySpree
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3/5/2018  5:21 PM    LAST EDITED: 3/5/2018  5:21 PM
martin wrote:I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

Mudiay is very unprofessional in his polish. He hasn't gotten better in 3 years. This Summer lhe actually needs to devote his time to Chris brickley or another super basketball trainer. Mudiay has a great base, but like I said, he is not polished. Mudiuay says he wants to be good. He's gonna have to really lick that in this summer. Get his handle tight, get stronger and get his jumper under control. To me it's easy for him to get that fixed as come back next year a new man.

You know why I'm here....
TripleThreat
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3/5/2018  9:37 PM
BRIGGS wrote:I want to be encouraging as a fan-- but Mudiay has to meet us halfway and make some darn shots. I'm not sure what the asking price for Payton was but he's been light years better than Mudiay in every single category.

If he could make those "darn shots", he would not have been available.

If a player is available, it's usually for a reason.

The idea of some hidden gem is a nice narrative. And you'll find it in MLB and the NFL. Wayne Chrebet. David Eckstein.

The reality though is it rarely happens in the NBA. Fewer players in general means more intensive scouting for the existing players within the marketplace. In MLB and the NFL, you might only get a quick pass over a prospect before the draft. In the NBA, there is so little personnel movement, that these guys have nothing to do but intensively scout everyone down to the bone.

The last time someone really slipped through the cracks was Jeremy Lin, and there was clearly a variation of the classic "Euro Bias" in play. ( Basically, he was seen and treated as a novelty until he started wrecking everything in his way. Bizarrely, league scouts, many went off the record but to the press saying Lin was a mirage ( because their jobs were on the line) which is so far out of bounds for what non GMs do and don't do with the press)

I recognize I have a different exposure level to this than many here, but we are talking guys sleeping on cots in their office. We are talking guys going home for Xmas for about four hours, then going back to work. We are talking some teams where they had to bring in fresh laundry daily because some coaches during the draft phase stopped changing their clothes.

There is no Mudiay and Burke are secretly so awesome and only the Knicks figured it out.

If a player doesn't break through or break out by his third year, then odds are he won't.

I keep hearing, Enes Kanter is ONLY 25, he's still so young. Yes, in civilian terms. Maybe if he was a MLB pitcher. You have a very limited developmental window. Once it passes, you are usually going to be hovering about what you've shown thus far.

Burke and Mudiay's previous teams gave up on them for a reason. Those reasons rarely change no matter where the player goes next.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Vmart
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3/6/2018  9:42 AM
martin wrote:I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

Mudiay is Denver’s trash. Denver figured it out that it was time to move on. But let’s give kudos to Perry for his outside the box thinking. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they will improve on their flaws.

martin
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3/6/2018  10:53 AM
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

Mudiay is Denver’s trash. Denver figured it out that it was time to move on. But let’s give kudos to Perry for his outside the box thinking. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they will improve on their flaws.

Yeah, same was said about Billups and a lot of others, I just can't see what Mudiay has going for him that he can develop, something that sets him apart. Right now he is a big guy (for a PG) who dribbles.

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Vmart
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3/6/2018  11:06 AM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

Mudiay is Denver’s trash. Denver figured it out that it was time to move on. But let’s give kudos to Perry for his outside the box thinking. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they will improve on their flaws.

Yeah, same was said about Billups and a lot of others, I just can't see what Mudiay has going for him that he can develop, something that sets him apart. Right now he is a big guy (for a PG) who dribbles.

Yeah I hear you. For every Billups there are a lot of others. You know the ones you can’t think of.

Sangfroid
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3/6/2018  8:43 PM
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

Mudiay is Denver’s trash. Denver figured it out that it was time to move on. But let’s give kudos to Perry for his outside the box thinking. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they will improve on their flaws.

Yeah, same was said about Billups and a lot of others, I just can't see what Mudiay has going for him that he can develop, something that sets him apart. Right now he is a big guy (for a PG) who dribbles.

The light is fading on Mudiay. That decision to go to China instead of toiling under Larry Brown at SMU is taking its' toll

"We are playing a game. We are playing at not playing a game..."
Cartman718
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3/6/2018  11:21 PM
Sangfroid wrote:
martin wrote:
Vmart wrote:
martin wrote:I can't figure out Mudiay's potential. Can he score? Pass? Run a team? Offer defense? I know there is a slight adjustment moving to a new team but IMO he hasn't shown much. I can't even see the potential to do things as a PG.

IMO Mudiay gonna have to put in a LOT of work this summer and show it on the court next year or he will be forever a min salary guy or out of league very soon.

Mudiay is Denver’s trash. Denver figured it out that it was time to move on. But let’s give kudos to Perry for his outside the box thinking. Just because they are young doesn’t mean they will improve on their flaws.

Yeah, same was said about Billups and a lot of others, I just can't see what Mudiay has going for him that he can develop, something that sets him apart. Right now he is a big guy (for a PG) who dribbles.

The light is fading on Mudiay. That decision to go to China instead of toiling under Larry Brown at SMU is taking its' toll

he can absolutely pass. he has to work on his shooting

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
I want to get behind these guys

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