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Horny Conundrum...
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SocraticBallin22
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2/15/2018  10:43 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/15/2018  10:57 PM
Here is the conundrum: Horny has no job security right now. He is the head coach of a team that overhauled their front office and management in the off-season, and he was was the outgoing regime's hire. There are no guarantees that he will be back next year. In fact, odds are that Mills and Perry will want to hire their own coach to lead their rebuilding efforts and youth development.

So you have Horny, who knows there's a good chance he won't be back, and whose team is riding a long losing streak following the horrific injury to his franchise player losing him for the season, so he's compelled to continue to play all his veterans--who he believes gives him the best chance of winning-- in an attempt to amass as many wins as possible, in order to possibly save his job in the off-season (even though it's to the direct detriment of the long term success of the team in a) playing the youth and developing them (and evaluating them) and b) losing games--i.e. tanking-- helps the franchise get a much higher lottery selection in the draft this summer (and possibly another franchise type player).

We get mad at Horny, but he is not to blame. He is a coach and all he cares about is getting wins and maintaining his job security--especially if he doesn't have the endorsement from the new front office, which it appears he doesn't.

What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.

I have a feeling this convo has not been had yet, since we're still seeing what we saw last night with Jack coming back in the game with 7 minutes to go and all the vet starters playing heavy minutes (and we're still losing).

I hope for the organization's sake it happens soon.

AUTOADVERT
CrushAlot
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2/15/2018  11:07 PM
Sounds like the company plan is to play the kids.
Jeff Hornacek reiterated following Wednesday night’s debacle defeat that he plans to feature the younger players after the All-Star break, specifically point guards Frank Ntilikina, Emmanuel Mudiay and Trey Burke. The hope is to set a new rotation during the practices next week. It’s an organizational decision that also symbolizes a concession to another playoff-less campaign.

“It’s probably all three of those young guys (playing more) — Frank, Emmanuel and Trey — and we’ll slide a couple of them in the two-guard spot,” the coach said. “Whether it’s Trey and Emmanuel or some combination of those guys — Emmanuel and Frank, as well.”

You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
knicks1248
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2/15/2018  11:17 PM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Here is the conundrum: Horny has no job security right now. He is the head coach of a team that overhauled their front office and management in the off-season, and he was was the outgoing regime's hire. There are no guarantees that he will be back next year. In fact, odds are that Mills and Perry will want to hire their own coach to lead their rebuilding efforts and youth development.

So you have Horny, who knows there's a good chance he won't be back, and whose team is riding a long losing streak following the horrific injury to his franchise player losing him for the season, so he's compelled to continue to play all his veterans--who he believes gives him the best chance of winning-- in an attempt to amass as many wins as possible, in order to possibly save his job in the off-season (even though it's to the direct detriment of the long term success of the team in a) playing the youth and developing them (and evaluating them) and b) losing games--i.e. tanking-- helps the franchise get a much higher lottery selection in the draft this summer (and possibly another franchise type player).

We get mad at Horny, but he is not to blame. He is a coach and all he cares about is getting wins and maintaining his job security--especially if he doesn't have the endorsement from the new front office, which it appears he doesn't.

What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.

I have a feeling this convo has not been had yet, since we're still seeing what we saw last night with Jack coming back in the game with 7 minutes to go and all the vet starters playing heavy minutes (and we're still losing).

I hope for the organization's sake it happens soon.


Tweet

BY
STEFAN BONDY


Jeff Hornacek reiterated following Wednesday night’s debacle defeat that he plans to feature the younger players after the All-Star break, specifically point guards Frank Ntilikina, Emmanuel Mudiay and Trey Burke. The hope is to set a new rotation during the practices next week. It’s an organizational decision that also symbolizes a concession to another playoff-less campaign.

“It’s probably all three of those young guys (playing more) — Frank, Emmanuel and Trey — and we’ll slide a couple of them in the two-guard spot,” the coach said. “Whether it’s Trey and Emmanuel or some combination of those guys — Emmanuel and Frank, as well.”

There's no reason to keep him,

It’s unclear if the New York Knicks will be exploring their options at head coach this offseason, but one report indicates if they do, they already might have their replacement picked out.

Frank Isola of the New York Daily News reported Thursday that sources indicated to him that the Knicks will look at Mark Jackson if they decide that Jeff Hornacek is not the man to lead the team going forward.

Though there isn’t a clear indication that Hornacek is indeed on his way out, Isola said some NBA sources pointed to Jackson waiting in the wings should changes be made.

ADVERTISEMENT - SCROLL TO CONTINUE TO CONTENT

But Hornacek himself is said to understand that his time with the Knicks could be short if improvements are not made.

Hornacek knows how the game works. In theory, he was not hired by Mills or Perry and without a strong allegiance to the front office he is therefore vulnerable. Maybe that’s why two coaches from different staffs told me they keep hearing Jackson’s name floated out as a possible successor when and if the Knicks were to make a change. Even Doc Rivers’ name is making the rounds even though he is under contract with the Los Angeles Clippers.

That speculation could be based on nothing more than the Knicks’ history of hiring and firing head coaches the way the current White House administration discards staff members. But it’s out there.

It’s tough to know what this speculation is worth given we don’t know how the Knicks will do in the second half of the season, but the message is clear: The next few months for the Knicks are not simply a team on autopilot. What happens on the court will almost certainly impact who is running things in New York in the future.

ES
knicks1248
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2/15/2018  11:26 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/15/2018  11:27 PM
JH is in a no win situation, it would take a miracle at this point. You already see the effort he's getting now on a 8 game losing streak. With nothing to play for in the last qtr of the season, and no desire to win, how is that suppose to help him...

Management did nothing at the trade line to help him win, and the recent loss probably sealed his fate..can wait for mark

ES
TLover
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2/16/2018  12:17 AM
If the Knicks don’t plan to retain him for next season then why not cut bait now at the All star break. Have a developmental coach from our staff (not named Kurt Rambis) take over for the remainder of the season. But if jeff is in line with what management wants to do in developing the young guys (which sounds like it) then he’ll finish out the season. I suppose it’s better to keep continuity even though the team is not very good.
EnySpree
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2/16/2018  8:12 AM
Basketball coaching is a carousel in the nba....

Perry is being very classy. He could have fired Horny 2 weeks ago. I think we all can say the writing is on the wall. Everyone is gonna be calling for Mark Jackson. We might actually get him, but I'd really like to take a look at Monty Williams... David Blatt might be a good look as far as playing style. David Fizdale might get a look.

You know why I'm here....
nykshaknbake
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2/16/2018  8:44 AM
You have to wait until the end of the season. Otherwise,it's Kurt rabid or some unknown assistant who will be way over their heads. If it's someone credible (like mark jackson)they should have the benefit if a full training camp and a roster of players that are at least retained through the year. Right now the roster come start of next season maybe quite different.
Moonangie
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2/16/2018  8:47 AM
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Here is the conundrum: Horny has no job security right now. He is the head coach of a team that overhauled their front office and management in the off-season, and he was was the outgoing regime's hire. There are no guarantees that he will be back next year. In fact, odds are that Mills and Perry will want to hire their own coach to lead their rebuilding efforts and youth development.

So you have Horny, who knows there's a good chance he won't be back, and whose team is riding a long losing streak following the horrific injury to his franchise player losing him for the season, so he's compelled to continue to play all his veterans--who he believes gives him the best chance of winning-- in an attempt to amass as many wins as possible, in order to possibly save his job in the off-season (even though it's to the direct detriment of the long term success of the team in a) playing the youth and developing them (and evaluating them) and b) losing games--i.e. tanking-- helps the franchise get a much higher lottery selection in the draft this summer (and possibly another franchise type player).

We get mad at Horny, but he is not to blame. He is a coach and all he cares about is getting wins and maintaining his job security--especially if he doesn't have the endorsement from the new front office, which it appears he doesn't.

What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.

I have a feeling this convo has not been had yet, since we're still seeing what we saw last night with Jack coming back in the game with 7 minutes to go and all the vet starters playing heavy minutes (and we're still losing).

I hope for the organization's sake it happens soon.

Great post! From your keyboard to Yaweh's flaming bush - let it be a commandment!

Nalod
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2/16/2018  9:02 AM
I can’t defend Horny either way but in my view he is not the problem.
At the same time he is not the solution.
To be fair he as hired as the guy to run Phil’s system, then the team gets made over in season two with more youth and no Melo while KP was installed as the man. That’s a lot of change in the course of two seasons.
Part of me is sympathetic to this and I can’t blame him. His system is hampered by the make up of our back court. A 19 year old rookie and a few inexpensive vets. Hardaway missed a lot of games and had ups and downs all the while.

If our regime wants its own guy and feels that would improve our trajectory then I get that. Who is that mystical person? I don’t know. Mark Jax by some would be exciting because he was the guy that got GSW on track. So based on that, he is the guy? Blatt never had a chance in Clev even thought he coached them to finals. is the guy based on that our his full life resume as a coach? Fiz has the coaching chops but on his own had personality problems. Mainly his. Jax had problems also but his roster was amazing.
Nalod qualified to go no further than this. I don’t know who the right guy is.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
fishmike
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2/16/2018  9:28 AM
One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

Chandler
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2/16/2018  10:44 AM
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

I agree with a lot of this but there does seem to be a fundamental problem in that the team has no identity.

The team, coach, and FO are not on the same page, because there is no "page" just chit-chat **** to quote DJ Music.

The FO says it wants two way players and then gets Enes, McD, brings up Burke (all of whom are not; not saying the trade was bad but what about The Plan). It's not even clear what we're trying to achieve in terms of player development and team strategy. It's a hot mess right now.

This year we gave JH 4 centers (not including KP) and next year there is some chance the only one left is Noah?!? FO has no clue what it wants to do other than build around KP (Duh!). We have perhaps one true SF (Lance)?!? No plan at 2G -- what happens after CLee, can anyone say -- we've given Dotson little burn, talk about THJ at 2, monkey around with pgs playing 2 (who haven't shot well -- Baker, Frank)?

If we're a Pistons'-like defensive minded team (which Perry has alluded to) we probably have no one to fit that mold outside of Frank and KP (neither of whom is nasty, though they are good defenders)
If we're a uptempo team do we have the roster

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
NYKBocker
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2/16/2018  10:46 AM
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

anrst
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2/16/2018  11:03 AM
Plz god no mark jackson.

lets get a real coach for once.

BigDaddyG
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2/16/2018  11:03 AM
knicks1248 wrote:
SocraticBallin22 wrote:Here is the conundrum: Horny has no job security right now. He is the head coach of a team that overhauled their front office and management in the off-season, and he was was the outgoing regime's hire. There are no guarantees that he will be back next year. In fact, odds are that Mills and Perry will want to hire their own coach to lead their rebuilding efforts and youth development.

So you have Horny, who knows there's a good chance he won't be back, and whose team is riding a long losing streak following the horrific injury to his franchise player losing him for the season, so he's compelled to continue to play all his veterans--who he believes gives him the best chance of winning-- in an attempt to amass as many wins as possible, in order to possibly save his job in the off-season (even though it's to the direct detriment of the long term success of the team in a) playing the youth and developing them (and evaluating them) and b) losing games--i.e. tanking-- helps the franchise get a much higher lottery selection in the draft this summer (and possibly another franchise type player).

We get mad at Horny, but he is not to blame. He is a coach and all he cares about is getting wins and maintaining his job security--especially if he doesn't have the endorsement from the new front office, which it appears he doesn't.

What needs to happen following the all-star break is for Perry and Mills to have a sit down with Jeff and let him know that he's no longer being evaluated on wins and losses for the rest of the season, but is being evaluated on how much he gets out of developing the young players on the roster in expanded roles. This edict has to come directly from the FO, in order for there to be a significant change in the coaches philosophy. They have to be on the same page as far as what they're trying to accomplish for the rest of the season.

I have a feeling this convo has not been had yet, since we're still seeing what we saw last night with Jack coming back in the game with 7 minutes to go and all the vet starters playing heavy minutes (and we're still losing).

I hope for the organization's sake it happens soon.


Tweet

BY
STEFAN BONDY


Jeff Hornacek reiterated following Wednesday night’s debacle defeat that he plans to feature the younger players after the All-Star break, specifically point guards Frank Ntilikina, Emmanuel Mudiay and Trey Burke. The hope is to set a new rotation during the practices next week. It’s an organizational decision that also symbolizes a concession to another playoff-less campaign.

“It’s probably all three of those young guys (playing more) — Frank, Emmanuel and Trey — and we’ll slide a couple of them in the two-guard spot,” the coach said. “Whether it’s Trey and Emmanuel or some combination of those guys — Emmanuel and Frank, as well.”

There's no reason to keep him,

It’s unclear if the New York Knicks will be exploring their options at head coach this offseason, but one report indicates if they do, they already might have their replacement picked out.

Frank Isola of the New York Daily News reported Thursday that sources indicated to him that the Knicks will look at Mark Jackson if they decide that Jeff Hornacek is not the man to lead the team going forward.

Though there isn’t a clear indication that Hornacek is indeed on his way out, Isola said some NBA sources pointed to Jackson waiting in the wings should changes be made.

ADVERTISEMENT - SCROLL TO CONTINUE TO CONTENT

But Hornacek himself is said to understand that his time with the Knicks could be short if improvements are not made.

Hornacek knows how the game works. In theory, he was not hired by Mills or Perry and without a strong allegiance to the front office he is therefore vulnerable. Maybe that’s why two coaches from different staffs told me they keep hearing Jackson’s name floated out as a possible successor when and if the Knicks were to make a change. Even Doc Rivers’ name is making the rounds even though he is under contract with the Los Angeles Clippers.

That speculation could be based on nothing more than the Knicks’ history of hiring and firing head coaches the way the current White House administration discards staff members. But it’s out there.

It’s tough to know what this speculation is worth given we don’t know how the Knicks will do in the second half of the season, but the message is clear: The next few months for the Knicks are not simply a team on autopilot. What happens on the court will almost certainly impact who is running things in New York in the future.


I just hope we can do better that Jackson and Doc. I guess they're better than some of the other re-treads out there. Will always have love for those guys as former Knicks, but I'm not too impressed with what Doc had done with the Clippers. And Jackson? His offense schemes were dull and unimaginative and, apparently, there were other locker room shenanigans I'm not fully aware of. I'd rather give Blatt a shot.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
EnySpree
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2/16/2018  11:07 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

You know why I'm here....
knicks1248
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2/16/2018  11:08 AM
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

those guys got more minutes and touches since they weren't playing with any ball dominating players, no rose, no melo, no westbrook.. Kanter and THJ went from bench players to starters, I like beasely, don't know if it was mills or perry, but that was a solid pick up..

ES
NYKBocker
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2/16/2018  11:08 AM
Would really love JVG
EnySpree
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2/16/2018  11:14 AM
NYKBocker wrote:Would really love JVG

You know that's very interesting. Jvg still wants to coach. What's weird is her actually led a us a team to a gold medal last summer in a Americas tournament that nobody knew was going on. The NBA didn't even broadcast it. I could see him taking the job. He's a coach that fits everything Mills says he wants. Jvg is a nut. He's like Spolstra. He's working just as hard as the players doing his due diligence. Something to really take a hard look at.

You know why I'm here....
Chandler
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2/16/2018  11:14 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/16/2018  11:15 AM
Personally I don't want Mark Jackson or JVG, as in the "Please, God no!" category of don't want.

Jackson coached GS to above average
JVG quit on us -- nuff said. Plus his style doesn't translate to today's game any better than SVG

DJMUSIC: Fisher talked a good game in Post game but aside from that Derek Fisher was ALL CHIT CHAT SH_t and produced nothing!
NYKBocker
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2/16/2018  11:18 AM
EnySpree wrote:
NYKBocker wrote:
fishmike wrote:One thing I think is silly is the assumption that coaches want to win at all costs because of their record. You cant tell me anyone who is evaluating Jeff's performance here or anywhere is only looking at W/L. Did players get better? Did the team improve?
KP took becomes and AS
Lee is having a career year
Kanter is having a career year
THjr is having a career year
Beasley is having his best season in many years
Jack made a comeback and was a meaningful contributor and was clearly a better choice that Sessions.
KOQ is at career highs

We are a 30 win team which most predicted. IS that because of the roster or because of Jeff?

Knicks have made significant improvement on defense from last year as well.

Jeff has been fine. This will come down to how the FO works with him and like him. I like him a lot. He's not creampuff. He gets into it with these guys. We need a strong voice. A Sloan type.

These are all excellent points and I totally agree. The problem I have with Hornacek is his development of Frank, Dotson and the like. Then again if he did play the youngins more then the players you mentioned would not have career years.

The idea of development is warped if you believe giving them more minutes is all there is to developing a player. Rookies need to learn to work hard in practice. They can't expect to play at all. They have to earn it.

Perry quietly traded Willy because Willy was telling the media he had personal goals he gaff for his own career. That's a cancer. You can't have a guy like that on the team. He exiled Noah and never made any waves about it. Noah deserved that. Now quietly Perry traded for Mudiay to give Frank a wake up call. Burke is a prideful guy too. That's what I call developing a player. You want to play and we want you to get better. Now here's your competition, let's see who really wants to play. Fucking great stuff.

I see your point, however playing Jack extended minutes doesn't help anything. Playing Kanter and KOQ over Willy was fine and honestly I would have done the same. My only gripe is Jack getting extended minutes. Both Frank and Trey seems to have been doing what is asked of them. Nixluva has made some excellent points about getting Frank in situations that would put him in a better position to succeed but Horny has not done that.

Horny Conundrum...

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