Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Believe we've learned from the last couple of games that Frank is not a blank, and he isnt a PG either. How long do you believe it would take Frank to have a run like Burke has at the point, the last few games? How many seasons, if at all?

I saw more growth in Frank's game at the 2, in the last 2 games off the ball than I did for the first half of the season at PG. His handle is getting noticeably better since he started playing SG. He is taking what the offense gives him. Dont care about the bricks, Frank is taking open shots, driving.

Frank's body language looks better, more confident. Looks more aggressive on D, although he still needs work on his lateral movement.

I see the Knicks waiting on Frank to turn into the PG of the future pointless, when you have a young PG like Burke showing things at point that Frank likely never will. Especially since Frank has looked so darn good at SG, his natural position.

As a fan, I see Frank as the wing of the future is worth waiting on, Frank as the PG of the future is someone I want to see traded.

His game isn't like Burke's as we all know. He most likely won't have that shoot first mentality in order to produce those outputs. Burke has to play the way he does as its the only way for him to carve out a career for himself. Frank has more uniqueness and flexibility due to his size and length. Burke will also never be able to cover the ground Frank does defensively and I won't hold that against Burke. Just like I won't hold it against Frank if he isn't a 20pt scorer if he is able to provide a good all around game. They are built differently and have different backgrounds and different tools.

Jeff has made some comments in the past. How its important for Frank to learn these PG responsibilities and skills so he will continue to give him mins at PG. This would be an unnecessary statement if Jeff viewed Frank as a PG. The fact that he made those comments twice weeks ago tells me they don't view Frank strictly as a PG. They view him as a 1-3 who they want to develop PG skills with. It will look ugly now as he tries to develop PG level craft. But in the long run they could build up a unique 2-way weapon that can play 3 positions, guard 3 positions, and provide some PG skills while doing it. Maybe the Draymond of Guard/Wings?

Burke is doing what he needs to be a starting PG in this league, Frank isnt close. Being able to be the man on offense is part of what makes a starting PG. Not ancillary to the job.

Dont believe that Hornacek would have played Frank almost exclusively at PG until now if he wasnt trying to determine if Frank would excel at the role. Believe we've seen enough to determine that Frank is better suited off the ball.

Burke is an undersized guard. He has to be a scoring weapon to stick in the league. If he isn't a scoring weapon what else would he provide? His level of efficiency is what separates him from being a starting PG or not. Him shooting at 50+% with 1 turnover is what makes the case for the starting position or practically an all star over the last 2 games.

He played him exclusively at PG because there wasn't much other options. Now that Burke and Mudiay are in the fold there is more flexibility to move Frank around. But the question that Jeff answered wasn't about the past but about going forward. He said its important for Frank to learn these PG skills. It wasn't about Frank being the PG of the future. But about a skill set he wanted to try and install in Frank.

Scoring the rock is a skill. And its a skill that Burke has. Its one thing to say he has to do it and its another to say he CAN do it. There are a bunch of undersized pgs the didn't last in the league because they could'nt score....He plays exclusive point not so much because of his size but because he can run the point the way modern point guards do.

This is what Horny said about Burke..."Trey's been excellent," Hornacek said. "It's kind of that Kyrie [Irving] factor. When you have a point guard that can shoot 3s, can drive the ball and can kick it out to guys, it puts a lot of pressure on the defense."

Keep in mind, Burke had 8 assist last night...He has good court vision aswell...He embodies what pgs do...Now, the trick for Burke is learning how to e consistant...That will determine if he can be a starter in this league.

He has to do it, and he has shown he can do it.

There are a bunch of undersized pgs that didn't last in the league because they couldn't score

Exactly. Because what else do they provide if they can't? Yet if Burke was 6'4 and an had first-3rd team all defensive capabilities, and was a strong rebounder, to go with the passing then he wouldn't *need* to be a strong scorer to stick in the league or be a starter. The more utilities you provide the less you are asked to be that of a scorer. J-Kidd wasn't a great scorer but because he was a beast floor general, defensive player, high IQ, rebounder, could guard multiple positions etc.

Elfrid Payton only averages 11pts per game for his career yet he continues to get starting PG job. Because he is 6'4, rebounds, creates, defends etc. Burke isn't going to be able to defend or rebound like Payton. So what he has to do and is score the rock better and more efficient then Payton.

As a pg, the number thing you must do is take care of the ball...The last 2 games Burke has turned the ball over only 2 times...Also, you must make your teammates better; Burke had 6 and 8 assist over the last 2 games. The fact that he is a scoring threat is drawing alot of attention from the D and is making his teammates job a little easier. He is driving and kicking creating open looks for teammates...He had the ball at the top of key at one point, 3 Celtics were closing in on him and he made a cross court pass to Williams which lead to that reverse lay up on the baseline...

Haven't watched Peyton much, but as you know, Burkes ability to score will lead to plenty of dimes and open the court up for everyone else...

It depends on what you bring to the table. Westbrook turns the ball over a ton. But he puts up triple doubles to off set. John Wall averages almost 4 TOs a game. But he also gets 4-5rebs 9ast 1-2stls.

Trey Burke's skill sets is with the ball in his hands. If Trey Burke was asked to play off ball then the coach would reduce his effectiveness drastically. So given the fact that to be most effective he needs high usage. He must be a player that doesn't turn the ball over, & shoots efficiently & produces dimes. He has answered the call for all those things required of him so far. He didn't with Utah or Washington which is why he was almost out of the league. For Burke that is the difference between being in the NBA or out of the league.

Westbrook on the other hand can shoot at 42% and turn the ball over 5 times a game but because he provides so much utility he can get away with it and be MVP. Burke doesn't provide that utility. So if he shot 42% and turned the ball over 5 times a game he would be out of the league.

What Burke has done offensively so far this season under his small sample size has been superstar worthy as he holds a 60% TS rate and a 221 WS48 for the 15 games he has played for us. All credit goes to him. His style of play he has to be 57% and up TS% wise. As he doesn't provide the utility to hold average TS%s. Which account for shooting %, ast, and FTs, TOs

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:The team falls apart when Frank isn’t in the game. The defense suffers, yesterday vs Celtics was a prime example as soon as JH took him out the Celtics went on a run to close the game out. As the great Eny would say cue the (+\-). Some here don’t want to admit it but he is the glue of the team on the defensive side.

You are dead wrong!!! Celts started their run when Frank was on the court...It was 94-92 with 8 mins left in the 4th when Kyrie returned to the game...Kyrie was lights out, making tough shots with a hand n his face...He was also driving and kicking....Celts immediately went on a 9-2 run with Frank still on the court...In fact, Frank failed to box out Rozier who tipped in an offensive rebound which caused Horny to call a Time out!!

I hardly call Kyrie hitting one three pointer from the 94-92 mark to when Frank went out of the game as going off.

Vmart wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:The team falls apart when Frank isn’t in the game. The defense suffers, yesterday vs Celtics was a prime example as soon as JH took him out the Celtics went on a run to close the game out. As the great Eny would say cue the (+\-). Some here don’t want to admit it but he is the glue of the team on the defensive side.

You are dead wrong!!! Celts started their run when Frank was on the court...It was 94-92 with 8 mins left in the 4th when Kyrie returned to the game...Kyrie was lights out, making tough shots with a hand n his face...He was also driving and kicking....Celts immediately went on a 9-2 run with Frank still on the court...In fact, Frank failed to box out Rozier who tipped in an offensive rebound which caused Horny to call a Time out!!

I hardly call Kyrie hitting one three pointer from the 94-92 mark to when Frank went out of the game as going off.

Kyrie was lights out the entire game...The premise of my post was to point out that the Celts run started with Frank still in the game and the missed box-out on Franks part that lead to a Horny time out and getting pulled from the game...In other words, the Knicks D was falling apart with the Glue still in the game...Do you care to address that?!

Vmart wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:The team falls apart when Frank isn’t in the game. The defense suffers, yesterday vs Celtics was a prime example as soon as JH took him out the Celtics went on a run to close the game out. As the great Eny would say cue the (+\-). Some here don’t want to admit it but he is the glue of the team on the defensive side.

You are dead wrong!!! Celts started their run when Frank was on the court...It was 94-92 with 8 mins left in the 4th when Kyrie returned to the game...Kyrie was lights out, making tough shots with a hand n his face...He was also driving and kicking....Celts immediately went on a 9-2 run with Frank still on the court...In fact, Frank failed to box out Rozier who tipped in an offensive rebound which caused Horny to call a Time out!!

I hardly call Kyrie hitting one three pointer from the 94-92 mark to when Frank went out of the game as going off.

Kyrie was lights out the entire game...The premise of my post was to point out that the Celts run started with Frank still in the game and the missed box-out on Franks part that lead to a Horny time out and getting pulled from the game...In other words, the Knicks D was falling apart with the Glue still in the game...Do you care to address that?!

I’ll address that for. When Frank was in the game the Knicks played well defensively as a result his plus minus at the 94-92 mark was double digits. By the time he went out he was a plus 4. Whether he ran out of gas can be questioned. But the reality is that Ntlikina finds ways to play defense whether it’s help defense of just getting his hands near or around the basketball. He has a knack for it. When the Knicks did pull within the 94-92 mark it was Ntlikina with his steal that pulled the team close.

Put it this way Ntlikina should have been pulled and immediately returned a minute after. To close the game. Do I think that Ntlikina got tired I do and it showed when the Celtics went on that 9-2 run. With that said Ntlikina make the Knicks better with his defense and it shows up often in the plus minus. The game vs Orlando was a example of Ntlikina and his defense.

In fact the Knicks should be doubling down on 2 way defensive players in this draft and in the next draft (Since KP is out they will probably get another fairly high pick). Mikal Bridges should be the pick with the 9th pick if they are lucky for him to still be there and with the second pick they should target Khyri Thomas another 2 way defensive stud. They should move up if need be to get Thomas. He is a bigger version size wise than Dotson and also has a longer wingspan. And I loove Dotson.

The fact that Hornacek 1s not starting Frank and Dotson his 2 best 2 way perimeter defenders further demonstrates his cluelessness.

This organization is just so frustrating It says it wants to improve the team's defense it finally brings in/has defenders who are doing exactly that improving the teams defense and rather than developing these players instead midway through the season they pull up stakes and starts bringing low IQ players who don't play defense because "they can drive" SMH.

awe1028 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:

Uptown wrote:

Vmart wrote:The team falls apart when Frank isn’t in the game. The defense suffers, yesterday vs Celtics was a prime example as soon as JH took him out the Celtics went on a run to close the game out. As the great Eny would say cue the (+\-). Some here don’t want to admit it but he is the glue of the team on the defensive side.

You are dead wrong!!! Celts started their run when Frank was on the court...It was 94-92 with 8 mins left in the 4th when Kyrie returned to the game...Kyrie was lights out, making tough shots with a hand n his face...He was also driving and kicking....Celts immediately went on a 9-2 run with Frank still on the court...In fact, Frank failed to box out Rozier who tipped in an offensive rebound which caused Horny to call a Time out!!

I hardly call Kyrie hitting one three pointer from the 94-92 mark to when Frank went out of the game as going off.

Kyrie was lights out the entire game...The premise of my post was to point out that the Celts run started with Frank still in the game and the missed box-out on Franks part that lead to a Horny time out and getting pulled from the game...In other words, the Knicks D was falling apart with the Glue still in the game...Do you care to address that?!

I’ll address that for. When Frank was in the game the Knicks played well defensively as a result his plus minus at the 94-92 mark was double digits. By the time he went out he was a plus 4. Whether he ran out of gas can be questioned. But the reality is that Ntlikina finds ways to play defense whether it’s help defense of just getting his hands near or around the basketball. He has a knack for it. When the Knicks did pull within the 94-92 mark it was Ntlikina with his steal that pulled the team close.

Put it this way Ntlikina should have been pulled and immediately returned a minute after. To close the game. Do I think that Ntlikina got tired I do and it showed when the Celtics went on that 9-2 run. With that said Ntlikina make the Knicks better with his defense and it shows up often in the plus minus. The game vs Orlando was a example of Ntlikina and his defense.

This post and specificaly the bolded is spot on. That the Knicks read Hornacek cannot see just how important Frank is to this team moving forward demonstrates why the knicks will lose and continue to lose for the forseeable future.

In fact the Knicks should be doubling down on 2 way defensive players in this draft and in the next draft (Since KP is out they will probably get another fairly high pick). Mikal Bridges should be the pick with the 9th pick if they are lucky for him to still be there and with the second pick they should target Khyri Thomas another 2 way defensive stud. They should move up if need be to get Thomas. He is a bigger version size wise than Dotson and also has a longer wingspan. And I loove Dotson.

The fact that Hornacek 1s not starting Frank and Dotson his 2 best 2 way perimeter defenders further demonstrates his cluelessness.

This organization is just so frustrating It says it wants to improve the team's defense it finally brings in/has defenders who are doing exactly that improving the teams defense and rather than developing these players instead midway through the season they pull up stakes and starts bringing low IQ players who don't play defense because "they can drive" SMH.

Frank played 30 mins the previous game and 24 mins last night...What more do you want? You think Dotson should be starting? What has Dotson done this yr to merit a starting spot

fishmike wrote:On Ntilikina

Klay Thompson wrote:“He’s got tremendous potential,’’ Thompson said. “Anytime you’re in the NBA at 19, you’re doing something right. He plays the game the right way, he can shoot, he’s still got a lot of growing to do and he’s just going to get better every day.”

Love it. Breen was talking last night about Frank never having a strength training program, which is amazing for him to be physically competitive and able to guard bigs and SF’s at times. I can only imagine what happens after a year or two of serious strength training and just maturing physically as well as mentally. I’m still thrilled with our pick. He still could wind up the best guard in the draft.

His strengths (defense/length especially, and vision) have overshadowed them when he's been good, but the drawbacks to his game were always going to be a question mark.

However, he is 19 years old playing in a demanding position for young players, on a team that is increasingly struggling, in general.

He isn't a terrible player, but he has flaws that the NBA can magnify compared to elsewhere.

I still think he can be a good player, and can get better as a scoring threat, but it's been difficult to see that changing enough to become a top 2 way NBA guard and more likely a good/rotation 3 and D player, which is valuable, but for a top 10 pick is a fairly low level of potential. However, sometimes shooting for the moon late in the lotto can backfire and rotation players of this type do have their value, especially young players with growth potential of some kind now all considered "assets" for deals, etc. under the new NBA CBA.

His age is playing a lot into potential factoring, it seems, so hopefully that works in our favor in the next season or so as he develops physically as well as mentally to the NBA, at least.

Tweet was deleted or there was problem with the URL:

https://twitter.com/mikevorkunov/status/968569526546726912

CrushAlot wrote:

Zebo13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:On Ntilikina

Klay Thompson wrote:“He’s got tremendous potential,’’ Thompson said. “Anytime you’re in the NBA at 19, you’re doing something right. He plays the game the right way, he can shoot, he’s still got a lot of growing to do and he’s just going to get better every day.”

Love it. Breen was talking last night about Frank never having a strength training program, which is amazing for him to be physically competitive and able to guard bigs and SF’s at times. I can only imagine what happens after a year or two of serious strength training and just maturing physically as well as mentally. I’m still thrilled with our pick. He still could wind up the best guard in the draft.

Great catch. I missed Breen's comments on that.

He could easily end up being the 2nd best guard in this draft in terms of overall impact. Not stats-wise, because guys like Ball and Smith will put up numbers, but his 2way impact could be there. His stats are the reason some are disappointed with him, but the eye test says he is showing major impact in spurts and his upside is high.

But the casual fan thinks Smith is better because he jumps higher and shoots a lot more.

Zebo13 wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

Zebo13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:On Ntilikina

Klay Thompson wrote:“He’s got tremendous potential,’’ Thompson said. “Anytime you’re in the NBA at 19, you’re doing something right. He plays the game the right way, he can shoot, he’s still got a lot of growing to do and he’s just going to get better every day.”

Love it. Breen was talking last night about Frank never having a strength training program, which is amazing for him to be physically competitive and able to guard bigs and SF’s at times. I can only imagine what happens after a year or two of serious strength training and just maturing physically as well as mentally. I’m still thrilled with our pick. He still could wind up the best guard in the draft.

Thrilled!?!? Why so emotional lol I agree. It's too early to put Frank inside any type of box. Let's just sit back and watch. Kids grow up so fast these days and before you know it, they're signed to large contracts that leave you second-guessing their worth.

I chose to use the more demonstrative word to counteract all the “Frank can’t play”, haterade. This is a new era with a president and GM combo who seem to have a clue what they’re doing and where they want to go. Look at this team and it’s assets its starting to collect compared to last years team. Ron, Kuz, and Willy? Sounds like the cast of a kids show.