knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

Nalod wrote:Who had the second most minutes tonite?
Who was on the floor when the game ended?

Not exactly a showcase performance. But I guess we can shift our standards to minutes forcedfed as a proxy to actual good play. So in keeping with that frank was amazing.

Because defense doesn't matter at all right?

He looked great on d. Is it me or is his d better when he is relieved of full time ball handling duties? Not sure and it is a small sample size at this point.

He shows flashes all the time, but then again so has besely his whole career.

He was off the ball a lot last nite.
“His whole career? Not even a full season at age 19.
Knicks1248 I posted his minutes last nite because you seem to have felt that since he was not starting his minutes would be cut with Mudiay. You thought Jack would be still playing.
Knick won. THat is never a bad thing. Even in a tank.
Road game also.

If it was me, i would waive jack in the next 10 minutes. I reference beasely as a player who has always shown flashes but never seem to fully live up to his potential. I have seen a whole lot of that in my years of watching the NBA.

I don't get to caught up in flashes and potential, especially as a knick fan, it's been a consistent let down.

I wouldn't play Frank more than 10 to 12 minutes per game, he's just too young, too in experience, not strong enough, doesn't have the mental or physical stamina, and doesn't have a super talented roster to hide his flaws.

You put him out there lacking all those things and wonder why he is regressing and you can barely notice any progression.

We needed a pg ever so badly, and the knicks draft a 19 year old kid who's played the position part time.

Before you know it you'll be saying, he's only 24 give him time he's still young

I mean, why would any fan hate on Frank the way you do? Fans like when their rookies improve?

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

Nalod wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

nykshaknbake wrote:

Nalod wrote:Who had the second most minutes tonite?
Who was on the floor when the game ended?

Not exactly a showcase performance. But I guess we can shift our standards to minutes forcedfed as a proxy to actual good play. So in keeping with that frank was amazing.

Because defense doesn't matter at all right?

He looked great on d. Is it me or is his d better when he is relieved of full time ball handling duties? Not sure and it is a small sample size at this point.

He shows flashes all the time, but then again so has besely his whole career.

He was off the ball a lot last nite.
“His whole career? Not even a full season at age 19.
Knicks1248 I posted his minutes last nite because you seem to have felt that since he was not starting his minutes would be cut with Mudiay. You thought Jack would be still playing.
Knick won. THat is never a bad thing. Even in a tank.
Road game also.

If it was me, i would waive jack in the next 10 minutes. I reference beasely as a player who has always shown flashes but never seem to fully live up to his potential. I have seen a whole lot of that in my years of watching the NBA.

I don't get to caught up in flashes and potential, especially as a knick fan, it's been a consistent let down.

I wouldn't play Frank more than 10 to 12 minutes per game, he's just too young, too in experience, not strong enough, doesn't have the mental or physical stamina, and doesn't have a super talented roster to hide his flaws.

You put him out there lacking all those things and wonder why he is regressing and you can barely notice any progression.

We needed a pg ever so badly, and the knicks draft a 19 year old kid who's played the position part time.

Before you know it you'll be saying, he's only 24 give him time he's still young

IF it was you, and we know your limitations you would be missing things.
First off, have you talked to Jack? If he is good to mentor, then you keep him. These young guys get a lot from guys that are good communicators and up to the task.
did you watch the game last nite? Frank had some good defense moments. He had some turnovers also.
Experience? There is a correlation of playing and getting experience.
You know the old thing about picking little kids picking on the cutest girl because the boys have crushes on them? Or conservative politicians slamming their homophobia to cover up their true desires? I’m starting to think you find the young 19 year is stirring your loins and your outwardly bashing him to cover this up.

I mean, why would any fan hate on Frank the way you do? Fans like when their rookies improve?

Every player in the league has good defensive moments, good offensive moments..

Thats what some of you don't get, nobody dislike franks, when he does something good, im pumping my fist, clapping my hands saying good job.

It's just that I would follow the spurs process of development, not the BS the knicks are doing. You let frank play though his struggles, but not willy. The knicks have 5 guards on the roster and have no problem getting quality minutes for frank, how come that didn't work for willy (and i don't really care for willy at all)

If fultz was on the knicks, they would just let him play through his shooting struggles and let him figure it out, but the sixers decided to shut him down until he figures it out. When i see frank make the same mistakes game after game, am i suppose to assume his learning.

YOur making shyt up again.
1. We are not the Spurs, a playoff team.
2. Comparing Fultz and Franks is ignorant

RSparrow2 wrote:Frank kinda reminds me (for the greybeards here) of Darrell Walker.

good comp! Al Skinner? I wonder what Michael Ray Richardson was like at 19.
We never saw these guys at this age.

GustavBahler wrote:Believe we've learned from the last couple of games that Frank is not a blank, and he isnt a PG either. How long do you believe it would take Frank to have a run like Burke has at the point, the last few games? How many seasons, if at all?

I saw more growth in Frank's game at the 2, in the last 2 games off the ball than I did for the first half of the season at PG. His handle is getting noticeably better since he started playing SG. He is taking what the offense gives him. Dont care about the bricks, Frank is taking open shots, driving.

Frank's body language looks better, more confident. Looks more aggressive on D, although he still needs work on his lateral movement.

I see the Knicks waiting on Frank to turn into the PG of the future pointless, when you have a young PG like Burke showing things at point that Frank likely never will. Especially since Frank has looked so darn good at SG, his natural position.

As a fan, I see Frank as the wing of the future is worth waiting on, Frank as the PG of the future is someone I want to see traded.

His game isn't like Burke's as we all know. He most likely won't have that shoot first mentality in order to produce those outputs. Burke has to play the way he does as its the only way for him to carve out a career for himself. Frank has more uniqueness and flexibility due to his size and length. Burke will also never be able to cover the ground Frank does defensively and I won't hold that against Burke. Just like I won't hold it against Frank if he isn't a 20pt scorer if he is able to provide a good all around game. They are built differently and have different backgrounds and different tools.

Jeff has made some comments in the past. How its important for Frank to learn these PG responsibilities and skills so he will continue to give him mins at PG. This would be an unnecessary statement if Jeff viewed Frank as a PG. The fact that he made those comments twice weeks ago tells me they don't view Frank strictly as a PG. They view him as a 1-3 who they want to develop PG skills with. It will look ugly now as he tries to develop PG level craft. But in the long run they could build up a unique 2-way weapon that can play 3 positions, guard 3 positions, and provide some PG skills while doing it. Maybe the Draymond of Guard/Wings?

GustavBahler wrote:Believe we've learned from the last couple of games that Frank is not a blank, and he isnt a PG either. How long do you believe it would take Frank to have a run like Burke has at the point, the last few games? How many seasons, if at all?

I saw more growth in Frank's game at the 2, in the last 2 games off the ball than I did for the first half of the season at PG. His handle is getting noticeably better since he started playing SG. He is taking what the offense gives him. Dont care about the bricks, Frank is taking open shots, driving.

Frank's body language looks better, more confident. Looks more aggressive on D, although he still needs work on his lateral movement.

I see the Knicks waiting on Frank to turn into the PG of the future pointless, when you have a young PG like Burke showing things at point that Frank likely never will. Especially since Frank has looked so darn good at SG, his natural position.

As a fan, I see Frank as the wing of the future is worth waiting on, Frank as the PG of the future is someone I want to see traded.

Totally agree... When Frank is on the court with Mudiay or Burke, they demand the ball and Frank allows this to happen by passievly running down the court and letting them run the point. Either way, He seems more relaxed and comfortable when he is on the court with another pg. I like this Frank better than exclusive pg Frank....I think Burke and Mudiays presence and recent success (in Burkes case) has pushed Frank to step his game up and he's been more aggressive since. Seems like a weight was lifted off his shoulders...

Vmart wrote:The team falls apart when Frank isn’t in the game. The defense suffers, yesterday vs Celtics was a prime example as soon as JH took him out the Celtics went on a run to close the game out. As the great Eny would say cue the (+\-). Some here don’t want to admit it but he is the glue of the team on the defensive side.

You are dead wrong!!! Celts started their run when Frank was on the court...It was 94-92 with 8 mins left in the 4th when Kyrie returned to the game...Kyrie was lights out, making tough shots with a hand n his face...He was also driving and kicking....Celts immediately went on a 9-2 run with Frank still on the court...In fact, Frank failed to box out Rozier who tipped in an offensive rebound which caused Horny to call a Time out!!

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Believe we've learned from the last couple of games that Frank is not a blank, and he isnt a PG either. How long do you believe it would take Frank to have a run like Burke has at the point, the last few games? How many seasons, if at all?

I saw more growth in Frank's game at the 2, in the last 2 games off the ball than I did for the first half of the season at PG. His handle is getting noticeably better since he started playing SG. He is taking what the offense gives him. Dont care about the bricks, Frank is taking open shots, driving.

Frank's body language looks better, more confident. Looks more aggressive on D, although he still needs work on his lateral movement.

I see the Knicks waiting on Frank to turn into the PG of the future pointless, when you have a young PG like Burke showing things at point that Frank likely never will. Especially since Frank has looked so darn good at SG, his natural position.

As a fan, I see Frank as the wing of the future is worth waiting on, Frank as the PG of the future is someone I want to see traded.

His game isn't like Burke's as we all know. He most likely won't have that shoot first mentality in order to produce those outputs. Burke has to play the way he does as its the only way for him to carve out a career for himself. Frank has more uniqueness and flexibility due to his size and length. Burke will also never be able to cover the ground Frank does defensively and I won't hold that against Burke. Just like I won't hold it against Frank if he isn't a 20pt scorer if he is able to provide a good all around game. They are built differently and have different backgrounds and different tools.

Jeff has made some comments in the past. How its important for Frank to learn these PG responsibilities and skills so he will continue to give him mins at PG. This would be an unnecessary statement if Jeff viewed Frank as a PG. The fact that he made those comments twice weeks ago tells me they don't view Frank strictly as a PG. They view him as a 1-3 who they want to develop PG skills with. It will look ugly now as he tries to develop PG level craft. But in the long run they could build up a unique 2-way weapon that can play 3 positions, guard 3 positions, and provide some PG skills while doing it. Maybe the Draymond of Guard/Wings?

Burke is doing what he needs to be a starting PG in this league, Frank isnt close. Being able to be the man on offense is part of what makes a starting PG. Not ancillary to the job.

Dont believe that Hornacek would have played Frank almost exclusively at PG until now if he wasnt trying to determine if Frank would excel at the role. Believe we've seen enough to determine that Frank is better suited off the ball.

Burke is an undersized guard. He has to be a scoring weapon to stick in the league. If he isn't a scoring weapon what else would he provide? His level of efficiency is what separates him from being a starting PG or not. Him shooting at 50+% with 1 turnover is what makes the case for the starting position or practically an all star over the last 2 games.

He played him exclusively at PG because there wasn't much other options. Now that Burke and Mudiay are in the fold there is more flexibility to move Frank around. But the question that Jeff answered wasn't about the past but about going forward. He said its important for Frank to learn these PG skills. It wasn't about Frank being the PG of the future. But about a skill set he wanted to try and install in Frank.

Have you caught Burke's passing game? Its not just scoring thats making Burke so effective.

Frank already had good court vision, didnt need to develop it playing PG. It was everything else on offense that he needed to work on more. Harder to do when you're running the point.

If it was in fact was the plan, I disagree with it. Would have been better for Frank to have playing the wing down, then let Frank try to run the offense. Played often like he has too much on his plate.

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Believe we've learned from the last couple of games that Frank is not a blank, and he isnt a PG either. How long do you believe it would take Frank to have a run like Burke has at the point, the last few games? How many seasons, if at all?

I saw more growth in Frank's game at the 2, in the last 2 games off the ball than I did for the first half of the season at PG. His handle is getting noticeably better since he started playing SG. He is taking what the offense gives him. Dont care about the bricks, Frank is taking open shots, driving.

Frank's body language looks better, more confident. Looks more aggressive on D, although he still needs work on his lateral movement.

I see the Knicks waiting on Frank to turn into the PG of the future pointless, when you have a young PG like Burke showing things at point that Frank likely never will. Especially since Frank has looked so darn good at SG, his natural position.

As a fan, I see Frank as the wing of the future is worth waiting on, Frank as the PG of the future is someone I want to see traded.

His game isn't like Burke's as we all know. He most likely won't have that shoot first mentality in order to produce those outputs. Burke has to play the way he does as its the only way for him to carve out a career for himself. Frank has more uniqueness and flexibility due to his size and length. Burke will also never be able to cover the ground Frank does defensively and I won't hold that against Burke. Just like I won't hold it against Frank if he isn't a 20pt scorer if he is able to provide a good all around game. They are built differently and have different backgrounds and different tools.

Jeff has made some comments in the past. How its important for Frank to learn these PG responsibilities and skills so he will continue to give him mins at PG. This would be an unnecessary statement if Jeff viewed Frank as a PG. The fact that he made those comments twice weeks ago tells me they don't view Frank strictly as a PG. They view him as a 1-3 who they want to develop PG skills with. It will look ugly now as he tries to develop PG level craft. But in the long run they could build up a unique 2-way weapon that can play 3 positions, guard 3 positions, and provide some PG skills while doing it. Maybe the Draymond of Guard/Wings?

Burke is doing what he needs to be a starting PG in this league, Frank isnt close. Being able to be the man on offense is part of what makes a starting PG. Not ancillary to the job.

Dont believe that Hornacek would have played Frank almost exclusively at PG until now if he wasnt trying to determine if Frank would excel at the role. Believe we've seen enough to determine that Frank is better suited off the ball.

Burke is an undersized guard. He has to be a scoring weapon to stick in the league. If he isn't a scoring weapon what else would he provide? His level of efficiency is what separates him from being a starting PG or not. Him shooting at 50+% with 1 turnover is what makes the case for the starting position or practically an all star over the last 2 games.

He played him exclusively at PG because there wasn't much other options. Now that Burke and Mudiay are in the fold there is more flexibility to move Frank around. But the question that Jeff answered wasn't about the past but about going forward. He said its important for Frank to learn these PG skills. It wasn't about Frank being the PG of the future. But about a skill set he wanted to try and install in Frank.

Have you caught Burke's passing game? Its not just scoring thats making Burke so effective.

Frank already had good court vision, didnt need to develop it playing PG. It was everything else on offense that he needed to work on more. Harder to do when you're running the point.

If it was in fact was the plan, I disagree with it. Would have been better for Frank to have playing the wing down, then let Frank try to run the offense. Played often like he has too much on his plate.

Yea, i'm including Burke's passing as well when I speak on him.

Initially Jeff may have tried him out at PG as Frank was a relatively unknown prospect coming from France and all. Who missed summer league and basically all of preseason. So Jeff may have been trying to figure things out with Frank. Then he stuck with him at PG due to only having Jack & Sessions as his other options. But he also seems like it was necessary for Frank to experience that. And will continue to give him spot duties to continue to try and build up that skill set toward his game. Didn't do Frank any favors at this point in his career. But we will see if it actually helps him become a better player down the road.

newyorknewyork wrote:

Uptown wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Believe we've learned from the last couple of games that Frank is not a blank, and he isnt a PG either. How long do you believe it would take Frank to have a run like Burke has at the point, the last few games? How many seasons, if at all?

I saw more growth in Frank's game at the 2, in the last 2 games off the ball than I did for the first half of the season at PG. His handle is getting noticeably better since he started playing SG. He is taking what the offense gives him. Dont care about the bricks, Frank is taking open shots, driving.

Frank's body language looks better, more confident. Looks more aggressive on D, although he still needs work on his lateral movement.

I see the Knicks waiting on Frank to turn into the PG of the future pointless, when you have a young PG like Burke showing things at point that Frank likely never will. Especially since Frank has looked so darn good at SG, his natural position.

As a fan, I see Frank as the wing of the future is worth waiting on, Frank as the PG of the future is someone I want to see traded.

His game isn't like Burke's as we all know. He most likely won't have that shoot first mentality in order to produce those outputs. Burke has to play the way he does as its the only way for him to carve out a career for himself. Frank has more uniqueness and flexibility due to his size and length. Burke will also never be able to cover the ground Frank does defensively and I won't hold that against Burke. Just like I won't hold it against Frank if he isn't a 20pt scorer if he is able to provide a good all around game. They are built differently and have different backgrounds and different tools.

Jeff has made some comments in the past. How its important for Frank to learn these PG responsibilities and skills so he will continue to give him mins at PG. This would be an unnecessary statement if Jeff viewed Frank as a PG. The fact that he made those comments twice weeks ago tells me they don't view Frank strictly as a PG. They view him as a 1-3 who they want to develop PG skills with. It will look ugly now as he tries to develop PG level craft. But in the long run they could build up a unique 2-way weapon that can play 3 positions, guard 3 positions, and provide some PG skills while doing it. Maybe the Draymond of Guard/Wings?

Burke is doing what he needs to be a starting PG in this league, Frank isnt close. Being able to be the man on offense is part of what makes a starting PG. Not ancillary to the job.

Dont believe that Hornacek would have played Frank almost exclusively at PG until now if he wasnt trying to determine if Frank would excel at the role. Believe we've seen enough to determine that Frank is better suited off the ball.

Burke is an undersized guard. He has to be a scoring weapon to stick in the league. If he isn't a scoring weapon what else would he provide? His level of efficiency is what separates him from being a starting PG or not. Him shooting at 50+% with 1 turnover is what makes the case for the starting position or practically an all star over the last 2 games.

He played him exclusively at PG because there wasn't much other options. Now that Burke and Mudiay are in the fold there is more flexibility to move Frank around. But the question that Jeff answered wasn't about the past but about going forward. He said its important for Frank to learn these PG skills. It wasn't about Frank being the PG of the future. But about a skill set he wanted to try and install in Frank.

Scoring the rock is a skill. And its a skill that Burke has. Its one thing to say he has to do it and its another to say he CAN do it. There are a bunch of undersized pgs the didn't last in the league because they could'nt score....He plays exclusive point not so much because of his size but because he can run the point the way modern point guards do.

This is what Horny said about Burke..."Trey's been excellent," Hornacek said. "It's kind of that Kyrie [Irving] factor. When you have a point guard that can shoot 3s, can drive the ball and can kick it out to guys, it puts a lot of pressure on the defense."

Keep in mind, Burke had 8 assist last night...He has good court vision aswell...He embodies what pgs do...Now, the trick for Burke is learning how to e consistant...That will determine if he can be a starter in this league.

He has to do it, and he has shown he can do it.

There are a bunch of undersized pgs that didn't last in the league because they couldn't score

Exactly. Because what else do they provide if they can't? Yet if Burke was 6'4 and an had first-3rd team all defensive capabilities, and was a strong rebounder, to go with the passing then he wouldn't *need* to be a strong scorer to stick in the league or be a starter. The more utilities you provide the less you are asked to be that of a scorer. J-Kidd wasn't a great scorer but because he was a beast floor general, defensive player, high IQ, rebounder, could guard multiple positions etc.

Elfrid Payton only averages 11pts per game for his career yet he continues to get starting PG job. Because he is 6'4, rebounds, creates, defends etc. Burke isn't going to be able to defend or rebound like Payton. So what he has to do and is score the rock better and more efficient then Payton.

As a pg, the number thing you must do is take care of the ball...The last 2 games Burke has turned the ball over only 2 times...Also, you must make your teammates better; Burke had 6 and 8 assist over the last 2 games. The fact that he is a scoring threat is drawing alot of attention from the D and is making his teammates job a little easier. He is driving and kicking creating open looks for teammates...He had the ball at the top of key at one point, 3 Celtics were closing in on him and he made a cross court pass to Williams which lead to that reverse lay up on the baseline...

Haven't watched Peyton much, but as you know, Burkes ability to score will lead to plenty of dimes and open the court up for everyone else...