Nalod wrote:Thread is common when losing prevails. Question everything.
That's OK, but the pressure to change while losing is no doubt real but to deviate from a plan is reactionary.
"But, its not working!".........
A good plan factors in ebbs and flows.
Yesterday a lot of people sold the stock market. If your long term goal oriented you see it as an opportunity. If your not, you freak out and sell.
"Sell on strength" is an old wise saying for when you take profits. Good teams let players walk, trade players for younger ones/picks and prolong the flow of assets coming in.
Knicks for years did the opposite. It was called "Starphuching".
Rant, rave and freak out when its not working but facts are nothing matters yesterday and it should not weigh on decisions going forward. Knicks suck. Mills is 10 years wiser and in his reincarnation is not driving the knicks as it was during the Isiah years. I think Mills was MSG president, not knicks president. Isiah was president. That said, we appear to not be making the same decision process as we did for many years.
Can we answer for Phil and "the reboot"? Well, in many ways the right decisions were made, some mistakes along the way and the results not as hoped.
Makes for good media fodder. Most losing streaks create articles to fuel the anger. Im a fan, I am angry! But when you right down your goals every day you stay focused on the long term.
Question is when do you revisit the strategy? Its a good question.
Trade deadline is fun for fans to speculate but its very important the team stay on task. Bad trades are made when losing persists. What ever the parameters are and maybe its "Stay young, stay with youth, unless we are overwhelmed by an offer we can't refuse!" I would not expect much come trade deadline. I would not take back money and given the surplus of bigs I don't see a great market for KOQ. Andrew Bogut can be had for free. KOQ likely a low 2nd rounder? I don't know.
Lamenting about Willy? Read an article "should have traded him in the summer when his value was high!!". That's like saying should have sold a stock before it dropped! Stupid. What happened with willy? Melo trade returned Kanter and Willy after a good year and some good run with the Spanish national team came in full of himself and perhaps did not improve enough to stay on pace. Blame Coach? His job is to coach the best players. Blame Perry? He came late and he got decent value for Melo. Blame circumstances, this shyt happens.
"he wants out"! I read his agent backed down and said "he wants to play or an opportunity to play". While he might be a project, he does not want to get traded and sit elsewhere either! Whats his value? Late 1st rounder? Second rounder? No guarantee we get a better player there. We own his ass for two more seasons. Let him go play with Dirk, watch McHale tapes, or borrow some money and pay Hakeem to team him in the off season. Whining does not get play time, hard work does.
As for Noah, there is no problem here. Its a tough thing to have that salary and still want to play. I feel for the guy. He wants to play. Not enough to do a payout. he could be bought out at a big discount and go play elsewhere. He could be on the Cav's in 10 minutes. Obviously its a big number and its hard to ignore that kind of cash. Without a big discount knicks have no incentive to buy him out. Personally I like the guy. Kanter or KOQ has been injured enough to create time. Even if so, willy should get time too.
I'd just as soon release KOQ if we can't trade him (assuming we are tanked) and let willy play. Even if Noah played well his injury history with that contract makes him untradeable.
He sits. Money matters.

Ramblings of a Knick fan. Do you pay Martin for the abiity to vent as therapy?

Losing prevails? You mean 4 years? Yeah think its ok to talk about what everyone was pushing as a good move. Maybe time for all the guys, that thought it was a good idea to hire this STARPHUCK, face the music. Question everything? NO...just the part that we are not anywhere closer than we were 4 years ago. Call it what you want and use it how you want. But we are not.

Discuss what we did wrong? Maybe, but to waste some dead time. More interested in watching what happens next few months. Stockpile picks, sign younger experienced pieces with success early on in the league, use assets to get a franchise player. But definately not just sit around waiting for one of our long shot draft picks to get us a chip. Only Briggs wins in that scenario. But agree about the need to keep starphucking pieces out. Specially old over the hill FO guys.

arkrud wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:I think some put too much stock in that 54 win team. yes it was nice but once we got the postseason we were pretty much smoked. Obviously the next season we came back to earth and that team was never gonna work. When it comes to Phil I never sugarcoat it he did sme really bonehead things(The noah signing, rose trade} being at the top of the list. But he also added some good young pieces. However it was clear he needed to go ASAP. I actually like Perry. I know some people recently have blamed him fir the Hardaway signing but he wasn't even here yet so he shouldn't get any blame. I think Timmy was doing well until the injury. Perry also did well in the Melo trade which was something that also needed desperately to be done. Going into this year I expected it to be a bumpy year anyway. However I think we do have good days ahead. We have all our draft picks which is nice for a change. As for The Willy situation I still think the media is trying to stir stuff up. yes I agree he is probably frustrated but I think its more likely KOQ is traded this week.

So far I cant say anything bad about Mills/Perry this year. Agree on job with Melo. Only thing maybe over paying for TImmy. (Like him and thought Phil gave up on him)

But here is my take on Mills/Perry. Mills is useless. He is selling this rebuild (yet again) only for the sake of keeping his position for another 5 years. He does not have the ability to put together contending team. He is only good at managing expectations. Perry may have some more BBall IQ but I just dont think he will have much input with Mills and Dolan around. (Have you seen him at pressers when Mills is around?)

Here is my point. Its 4 years later and we cant really say we have anyhting besides KP. Who is not exactly playing like a guy that you can build around. What will change my outlook is what takes place at trade deadline and in the off season. We need to sell at dead line and try to collect assets/draft picks. But then I want them to use those assets, not for another chance at winning the draft Lotto, but by adding a proven young piece. We have seen that all the hype surrounding draft picks is just that...hype.

Thats fair. I agree about Mills(he isnt a bball guy) When it coes to KP its important to remmeber that he is still very very young and each year he has taken a positive step forward...it just cant happen overnight. As for draft pciks i admit ive always been big on draft picks. maybe its because for 15 yaers we traded all our draft pciks for crap and actually got worse. Yes i agree not all draft pciks work out but i still feel its important to have especially in a salary cap world. Im not trying to paint a rosey pickture its defefinetly frustarting right now. However im glad they arent panicksing making a classic bad knick trade like we did for many years. This is defnetly a team that is gonna take some time

Cant tell why KP has not cntinued the progression he seemed to be on headed early on. Would hate to think its his team and business side who seems to be focused on only scoring. It's also the coaching staff that needs to emphasixe how to elevate his passing game to what the high level players are doing. But agree, he is young. Also, agree about the need to add draft picks. Just want to use them for a young proven player on the cusp. But agree, definately not on some big name over hill All Star.

I never understand these types of posts. Only scoring? The guy has become an elite defensive player. Leading the leagues in blocks per game and defensive FG% at the rim. No longer getting beat on the perimeter, even though logic says he shouldn't be guarding 3pt shooters. His defense has been far more impressive than his offense. This isn't Melo we are talking about. Porzingis plays both sides of the ball well.

Defense is the first thing needed for the team building blocks.
KP is superstar on defense already. There is pretty much consensus on this around the NBA players and coaches alike.
His offense is decent and potential is unlimited.
His play-making and rebounding are still rudimentary and both he will need to work on.
At 22 player have to have a lot of things to work on.
If how KP was developing his game in NBA will continue he will get better in this areas.
Especially if he will not have one of the best rebounded in NBA in Kanter and overall good re-bounders around him.
Also his assists will improve if we will get players around him who can finish the play.
His assist to TJR on dissallowed basket was great and we start seeing him passing out of doubles and moving the ball when he is not set more and more.
His physicality improved and will continue to improve naturally with age.
So I cannot see any issues with KP.

The guy is 7'3. A real stretch (pun) to think he can block a shot. He is still not a good preimeter defender. Probably cuz he is how tall? His rebounding for a 7'3 guy is below average. His ability to create for others is non existent. How many games do you think guys, that you can build around, log 0 dimes? My point was not to discredit his positives but to emphasize what is needed for him to become a high level franchise player that is worth building around. Ie. Harden, AD, Curry, Westbrook, Irving, LBJ, Freak, etc. And he definately has the potential to do so. Problem recently is that he is playing more like a complimentary piece (Ryan Anderson) than a franchise player you cant put several different combinations around(Harden).

HofstraBBall wrote:

arkrud wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:I think some put too much stock in that 54 win team. yes it was nice but once we got the postseason we were pretty much smoked. Obviously the next season we came back to earth and that team was never gonna work. When it comes to Phil I never sugarcoat it he did sme really bonehead things(The noah signing, rose trade} being at the top of the list. But he also added some good young pieces. However it was clear he needed to go ASAP. I actually like Perry. I know some people recently have blamed him fir the Hardaway signing but he wasn't even here yet so he shouldn't get any blame. I think Timmy was doing well until the injury. Perry also did well in the Melo trade which was something that also needed desperately to be done. Going into this year I expected it to be a bumpy year anyway. However I think we do have good days ahead. We have all our draft picks which is nice for a change. As for The Willy situation I still think the media is trying to stir stuff up. yes I agree he is probably frustrated but I think its more likely KOQ is traded this week.

So far I cant say anything bad about Mills/Perry this year. Agree on job with Melo. Only thing maybe over paying for TImmy. (Like him and thought Phil gave up on him)

But here is my take on Mills/Perry. Mills is useless. He is selling this rebuild (yet again) only for the sake of keeping his position for another 5 years. He does not have the ability to put together contending team. He is only good at managing expectations. Perry may have some more BBall IQ but I just dont think he will have much input with Mills and Dolan around. (Have you seen him at pressers when Mills is around?)

Here is my point. Its 4 years later and we cant really say we have anyhting besides KP. Who is not exactly playing like a guy that you can build around. What will change my outlook is what takes place at trade deadline and in the off season. We need to sell at dead line and try to collect assets/draft picks. But then I want them to use those assets, not for another chance at winning the draft Lotto, but by adding a proven young piece. We have seen that all the hype surrounding draft picks is just that...hype.

Thats fair. I agree about Mills(he isnt a bball guy) When it coes to KP its important to remmeber that he is still very very young and each year he has taken a positive step forward...it just cant happen overnight. As for draft pciks i admit ive always been big on draft picks. maybe its because for 15 yaers we traded all our draft pciks for crap and actually got worse. Yes i agree not all draft pciks work out but i still feel its important to have especially in a salary cap world. Im not trying to paint a rosey pickture its defefinetly frustarting right now. However im glad they arent panicksing making a classic bad knick trade like we did for many years. This is defnetly a team that is gonna take some time

Cant tell why KP has not cntinued the progression he seemed to be on headed early on. Would hate to think its his team and business side who seems to be focused on only scoring. It's also the coaching staff that needs to emphasixe how to elevate his passing game to what the high level players are doing. But agree, he is young. Also, agree about the need to add draft picks. Just want to use them for a young proven player on the cusp. But agree, definately not on some big name over hill All Star.

I never understand these types of posts. Only scoring? The guy has become an elite defensive player. Leading the leagues in blocks per game and defensive FG% at the rim. No longer getting beat on the perimeter, even though logic says he shouldn't be guarding 3pt shooters. His defense has been far more impressive than his offense. This isn't Melo we are talking about. Porzingis plays both sides of the ball well.

Defense is the first thing needed for the team building blocks.
KP is superstar on defense already. There is pretty much consensus on this around the NBA players and coaches alike.
His offense is decent and potential is unlimited.
His play-making and rebounding are still rudimentary and both he will need to work on.
At 22 player have to have a lot of things to work on.
If how KP was developing his game in NBA will continue he will get better in this areas.
Especially if he will not have one of the best rebounded in NBA in Kanter and overall good re-bounders around him.
Also his assists will improve if we will get players around him who can finish the play.
His assist to TJR on dissallowed basket was great and we start seeing him passing out of doubles and moving the ball when he is not set more and more.
His physicality improved and will continue to improve naturally with age.
So I cannot see any issues with KP.

The guy is 7'3. A real stretch (pun) to think he can block a shot. He is still not a good preimeter defender. Probably cuz he is how tall? His rebounding for a 7'3 guy is below average. His ability to create for others is non existent. How many games do you think guys, that you can build around, log 0 dimes? My point was not to discredit his positives but to emphasize what is needed for him to become a high level franchise player that is worth building around. Ie. Harden, AD, Curry, Westbrook, Irving, LBJ, Freak, etc. And he definately has the potential to do so. Problem recently is that he is playing more like a complimentary piece (Ryan Anderson) than a franchise player you cant put several different combinations around(Harden).

A lot of it has to do with the guard play. With Hardaway out for an extended period of time, they haven't developed that chemistry yet, and our PG situation just isn't there yet. KP is a good scorer, but he's a big man, so he needs guys who can put him in scoring position more often. Frank appears to be a true pass first PG who will be able to learn how to get him the ball in certain spots, even if he never develops into an elite break-down playmaker.

fishmike wrote:first off the thread title is silly. If Jackson was brought in for a complete reboot we would have seen that. Did we? What did PJ say repeatedly when hired? He said the Knicks need to play system basketball (triangle) and that Melo still had another level to he could get to. Obviously he could not have been more wrong on both. Next thing he did was make an aging star the highest paid player in the game, handed him a NTC and signed vets.

Phil was another starphuck move through and through.

Phil didnt trade picks, swap picks and drafted well. As a result he left us with some good things and some terrible things.

NO NEW MANAGEMENT REGIME HAS COME IN SAYING THEY WILL REBUILD.

Its never happened... until now. So really Phil is just another Isiah, Donnie, Layden, etc... except Phil didnt hurt the next guy by leaving a bare draft cubbard.

Why are we talking about Phil? He did accomplish one thing (maybe) and that is Dolan stays away.

I have to respectfully disagree with you.

Phil managed to never mention the word rebuild but in the three years he juggled the roster he managed to rebuild on the back burner while simultaneously attempting to win at least a playoff berth with Melo.

Phil WAS NOT wrong about the need for the Knicks to play system ball. Many of our losses this year stem from the inability of this roster to gather themselves during stretches of incomprehensible cluelessness. If not the triangle then something needs to be established and has yet not.

Phil's moves were not starstruck IMO. Melo who claimed to be recruiting stars to play along side himself couldn't recruit a towel waver. Phil settled for best-available-FA-talent, risky as that was.

For all of the complaints about signing Noah, Noah recruited CLee.

Phil left us with a trajectory to win. KP and Frankie can potentially become stars, maybe even franchise players. The roster is more individually competent than before Phil arrived.

So where we are is in YEAR FOUR of a Rebuild/Retool spanning two FOs. We should not be hearing any talk that we're 5 or six or more "years away".
We need to be a playoff team this year OR, if we miss, loaded for bear come next year.

fishmike wrote:first off the thread title is silly. If Jackson was brought in for a complete reboot we would have seen that. Did we? What did PJ say repeatedly when hired? He said the Knicks need to play system basketball (triangle) and that Melo still had another level to he could get to. Obviously he could not have been more wrong on both. Next thing he did was make an aging star the highest paid player in the game, handed him a NTC and signed vets.

Phil was another starphuck move through and through.

Phil didnt trade picks, swap picks and drafted well. As a result he left us with some good things and some terrible things.

NO NEW MANAGEMENT REGIME HAS COME IN SAYING THEY WILL REBUILD.

Its never happened... until now. So really Phil is just another Isiah, Donnie, Layden, etc... except Phil didnt hurt the next guy by leaving a bare draft cubbard.

Why are we talking about Phil? He did accomplish one thing (maybe) and that is Dolan stays away.

Sorry Fish. Forgot your idea of "Reboot" is only signing Noah to 4 year deal.

Guess you don't understand what 3 reboots in 3 years look like? Main point! Perry has shown a better ability to properly "Reboot" then Phil did each and every year he was here. Hopefully he keeps going in the right direction.

Why are we still talking about him? Hmmm. It was okay for guys to talk endlessly about how well he was doing. Ok to make hundreds of threads about how he was making all the right moves? But now, guys that hung their hats on the Phil/Triangle era, dont want to talk about it? Typical. This site is full of blowhards that don't like to be reminded how little they knew. Guess we should keep it down about the Triangle being our future, Noah, Rose, Dennis Smith, Mitchell, etc etc.

Ok. What is it ok to still talk about? Briggs future #39 pick?

Vmart wrote:All I know is that the Knicks are developing one player. This is absolutely y sad state the team is in. Crappy team with a bunch of vets getting ridiculous amount of playing time. As if they are the solution to the future. Better off losing with the young players than vets any day of the week.

I love posts like this. It's all, "I've never played in high level organized sports but I have an opinion that counts" LOL

The best way to accelerate the growth of a young player is to match them with vets, there is just no way around that. Not to say it's the end-all but you can't get around it.

Vmart wrote:

fwk00 wrote:

Vmart wrote:All I know is that the Knicks are developing one player. This is absolutely y sad state the team is in. Crappy team with a bunch of vets getting ridiculous amount of playing time. As if they are the solution to the future. Better off losing with the young players than vets any day of the week.

We are developing a team. My problem is that we know we're too redundant and show few signs of doing anything about it.

If they are developing a team there should be incremental improvements. What we are seeing is regression on many fronts. When you have that then you don’t have a team. There is a lack of direction. There were time when there was direction and the players fought it. This time the players are buying in but the direction given is not good.

Think since Perry has been here, they have made incremental progress. Point of thread was that you take away Perry's moves and we would be even worse off. Phil claimed he was rebuilding but not rebuilding then rebuilding and not rebuilding again. Fact is, he did not know what je was doing, Shocker with any ecperience, and was a terrible judge of free agents and draft picks. Yet some here don't want to talk about it or acting like it helped our progress.

fishmike wrote:first off the thread title is silly. If Jackson was brought in for a complete reboot we would have seen that. Did we? What did PJ say repeatedly when hired? He said the Knicks need to play system basketball (triangle) and that Melo still had another level to he could get to. Obviously he could not have been more wrong on both. Next thing he did was make an aging star the highest paid player in the game, handed him a NTC and signed vets.

Phil was another starphuck move through and through.

Phil didnt trade picks, swap picks and drafted well. As a result he left us with some good things and some terrible things.

NO NEW MANAGEMENT REGIME HAS COME IN SAYING THEY WILL REBUILD.

Its never happened... until now. So really Phil is just another Isiah, Donnie, Layden, etc... except Phil didnt hurt the next guy by leaving a bare draft cubbard.

Why are we talking about Phil? He did accomplish one thing (maybe) and that is Dolan stays away.

Vmart wrote:

martin wrote:

Vmart wrote:All I know is that the Knicks are developing one player. This is absolutely y sad state the team is in. Crappy team with a bunch of vets getting ridiculous amount of playing time. As if they are the solution to the future. Better off losing with the young players than vets any day of the week.

I love posts like this. It's all, "I've never played in high level organized sports but I have an opinion that counts" LOL

The best way to accelerate the growth of a young player is to match them with vets, there is just no way around that. Not to say it's the end-all but you can't get around it.

Why are you busting my chops. Can’t I have an opinion. Everyone seems to have one why can’t I. Next time I’m gonna start a topic for every opinion I have.

You can have any opinion you want, try to make it informed

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:first off the thread title is silly. If Jackson was brought in for a complete reboot we would have seen that. Did we? What did PJ say repeatedly when hired? He said the Knicks need to play system basketball (triangle) and that Melo still had another level to he could get to. Obviously he could not have been more wrong on both. Next thing he did was make an aging star the highest paid player in the game, handed him a NTC and signed vets.

Phil was another starphuck move through and through.

Phil didnt trade picks, swap picks and drafted well. As a result he left us with some good things and some terrible things.

NO NEW MANAGEMENT REGIME HAS COME IN SAYING THEY WILL REBUILD.

Its never happened... until now. So really Phil is just another Isiah, Donnie, Layden, etc... except Phil didnt hurt the next guy by leaving a bare draft cubbard.

Why are we talking about Phil? He did accomplish one thing (maybe) and that is Dolan stays away.

You dont think adding 10 new players in a single off season to a roster, a REBUILD. Some rebuild through the draft, some rebuild through FA.

The lakers who have gone the draft route are now trying to get rid of some of the same kids they drafted, to chase Labron or PG13.

what was mills role in the bariani trade, wasn't he the GM?

Mills was not employed by the knicks. at that time.
Fake hate.

Caseloads wrote:Jax was right about everything, especially KP being injury prone. Can Kanter replace KP as an all star? boy is putting up digits

if like 20 more All stars get injured.