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Sorry but Horny had to go
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Nalod
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2/5/2018  1:51 PM
Welpee wrote:
Nalod wrote:Funny how great coaches have great players.
Jeff last year had a core to start of Noah-Melo-Rose-KP-Lee
Now its Kanter-Kp-Jack-Lee-Timmy
new GM, New president and new youth commitment.
50 games in its a tale of two runs. So the last 20 games are awful.
Its frustrating as all get out for sure.
Really, its about expectations and what was the seasons objective. If Mills and Perry are content, fans think they are morons. If they want playoffs fans think they are morons if they mortgage picks and youth. Fans love rebuild but hate the pain.
One of the reasons I referenced Thibs, remember in Chicago when he was dealing with prime Rose being injured? Look at that roster he was working with yet he found a way to win in spite of what was going on. I still contend this roster has enough talent to at least be a .500 team.

Its subjective. Thibs played a short rotation and demanded defense. We have a unicorn we are letting fill out, a 19 year old who is erratic but can play defense, and Hardaway a young player just finding his stride as a 2nd offensive option. I don't agree we are a playoff team.
I don't argue with preseason predications anymore that undermine our roster. They are usually right. If not, I will enjoy the hell out of the season and root for my team to succeed, but a guy like Thibs can also grind a team into injured disinterested dust.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
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newyorknewyork
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2/5/2018  2:10 PM
My main issue with Jeff is the lack of ball movement. A guy like Kanter almost never will kick the ball out after a rebound while he is double to triple covered in the paint to a WIDE OPEN 3 point shooter. Beasley will drive on 2-3 players in the paint and almost never kick the ball out to a WIDE OPEN 3 point shooter. Granted they make buckets at a good %. But between them and KP. Our best offensive weapons don't pass.

But I feel for him somewhat. The team signed Thjr as a move for the future. While leaving a gapping hole at the SF position. And we went in the season with a 19 yr old rookie and past to PGs. This team was not built to win today. The roster was to unbalanced. So Jeff wasn't put in a position to succeed. Which we figured going in.

In fairness he should get one more season with a more balanced roster. Unless a no brainer option becomes available. Knicks also need better ball movers.

Welpee
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2/5/2018  4:31 PM
Nalod wrote:
Welpee wrote:
Nalod wrote:Funny how great coaches have great players.
Jeff last year had a core to start of Noah-Melo-Rose-KP-Lee
Now its Kanter-Kp-Jack-Lee-Timmy
new GM, New president and new youth commitment.
50 games in its a tale of two runs. So the last 20 games are awful.
Its frustrating as all get out for sure.
Really, its about expectations and what was the seasons objective. If Mills and Perry are content, fans think they are morons. If they want playoffs fans think they are morons if they mortgage picks and youth. Fans love rebuild but hate the pain.
One of the reasons I referenced Thibs, remember in Chicago when he was dealing with prime Rose being injured? Look at that roster he was working with yet he found a way to win in spite of what was going on. I still contend this roster has enough talent to at least be a .500 team.

Its subjective. Thibs played a short rotation and demanded defense. We have a unicorn we are letting fill out, a 19 year old who is erratic but can play defense, and Hardaway a young player just finding his stride as a 2nd offensive option. I don't agree we are a playoff team.
I don't argue with preseason predications anymore that undermine our roster. They are usually right. If not, I will enjoy the hell out of the season and root for my team to succeed, but a guy like Thibs can also grind a team into injured disinterested dust.

Like I said, I think this is at least a .500 team. Whether that gets you in the playoff is another issue, but I don't think this squad should be eight games under .500 60% into the season.
fishmike
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2/5/2018  5:24 PM
this coach has been great. He really has.

Whats his job been? Establish culture and build up this roster. Wake up guys. So far so good. The Knicks are a much better defensive team than last year. They have light years to go but we have gotten better on D and that is the first path to sustainable winnings.

I mean literally... lets outline the PERFECT YEAR.

Most agree this isnt a playoff team. So what do you want from this season? Whats the best scenario?

Seems to me its to have this team playing hard and in every game and playing D, but losing. I think we have 7 losses this year of 3 point or less. Maybe Im including the OT losses. This is what you want to instill in your young players. THIS IS THE MESSAGE. You guys are there.. you are close, but you need to play harder and execute better. Thats the part of the maturation process.

Now whats the besst scenario come deadline?

Its the Knicks are sellers AND they have attractive veteran talent:
Jared Jack: successful reclamation product
Beas: benched early for poor D and effort, has come back to have best season in 5 years. Loves being here. Is that not good coaching?
Lee: career season
KOQ: career season

So all the stop gap vets have great value in the coach's rotation. Or at leas the best value you could expect them to have. I would say all these players are looked at more favorable than they were a year ago.

Young guys:
KP featured player, all star. Tons to learn but at 22 we have a 2-way perenial all star in the making
Frank - 19 year old getting 20mpg in the NBA. Thats more than he played in EU last year. Has shown flashes and potential
Burke - bigger role? Another d league developmental success? Positive impact on THjr?
Doston/Willy - should be promoted post trade deadline

I mean here we are. Playing better but not winning. In decent draft shape to move up. Our vets aside from Noah have the best value going into the deadline we could ask and people want to fire the coach.

The offense sucks. Do people really think this staff cant figure that out? Effort and body language are good. Jeff is a Sloan minion. He's not gonna take ****. I think he's a great fit until proven otherwise. He's done way more good than bad and this season is going great.

FO needs to execute at the deadline, but the coach has set us up as well as he possibly could have! Not seeing what you guys are seeing

ccch
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2/5/2018  5:52 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/5/2018  5:59 PM
nykshaknbake wrote:Roster is a mess with redundant players at Center and a complete lack of talent at PG and SF. Not the easiest roster to balance and work with.

Yes, I know we need roster improvement...hopefully time can cure this, however I think as in any team sport team chemistry and comaraderie are sometimes undervalued. Looking at the roster, it seems like there are no issues especially with Noah being removed and guys like Marbury, Rose, and few other characters not being around.

However, from a coaching standpoint, it seems like we always have a coach who brings bad Karma to the team. A few years back we had Herb Williams. The guy who's ultimate motive was for the Knicks to look bad hoping he would be the next HC to take over. Well luckily he's gone but now we have the new reincarnation of him in Kurt Rambus. His body language has bad Karma all over it. I don't know if it was Jeff's choice to retain him or if it came from upstairs but without him thinks could look better. BTW, if I'm not mistaken he's the man who has control over our defense.

nixluva
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2/5/2018  6:04 PM
HofstraBBall
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2/5/2018  6:08 PM
fishmike wrote:this coach has been great. He really has.

Whats his job been? Establish culture and build up this roster. Wake up guys. So far so good. The Knicks are a much better defensive team than last year. They have light years to go but we have gotten better on D and that is the first path to sustainable winnings.

I mean literally... lets outline the PERFECT YEAR.

Most agree this isnt a playoff team. So what do you want from this season? Whats the best scenario?

Seems to me its to have this team playing hard and in every game and playing D, but losing. I think we have 7 losses this year of 3 point or less. Maybe Im including the OT losses. This is what you want to instill in your young players. THIS IS THE MESSAGE. You guys are there.. you are close, but you need to play harder and execute better. Thats the part of the maturation process.

Now whats the besst scenario come deadline?

Its the Knicks are sellers AND they have attractive veteran talent:
Jared Jack: successful reclamation product
Beas: benched early for poor D and effort, has come back to have best season in 5 years. Loves being here. Is that not good coaching?
Lee: career season
KOQ: career season

So all the stop gap vets have great value in the coach's rotation. Or at leas the best value you could expect them to have. I would say all these players are looked at more favorable than they were a year ago.

Young guys:
KP featured player, all star. Tons to learn but at 22 we have a 2-way perenial all star in the making
Frank - 19 year old getting 20mpg in the NBA. Thats more than he played in EU last year. Has shown flashes and potential
Burke - bigger role? Another d league developmental success? Positive impact on THjr?
Doston/Willy - should be promoted post trade deadline

I mean here we are. Playing better but not winning. In decent draft shape to move up. Our vets aside from Noah have the best value going into the deadline we could ask and people want to fire the coach.

The offense sucks. Do people really think this staff cant figure that out? Effort and body language are good. Jeff is a Sloan minion. He's not gonna take ****. I think he's a great fit until proven otherwise. He's done way more good than bad and this season is going great.

FO needs to execute at the deadline, but the coach has set us up as well as he possibly could have! Not seeing what you guys are seeing

I think we need to put Noah in. No i really mean it. As his value is zero right now. Cant hurt.

THis is not on JH. Players are just not producing like they did early on. Also, dont agree with guys saying he should play younger guys more than 25 min. Makes no sense. He coaches to win. Think the time for rooks will come later in the season. But not before the break. If we are sellers, it should happen earlier.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
HofstraBBall
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2/5/2018  6:08 PM
nixluva wrote:

What do you think he meant by that?

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
awe1028
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2/5/2018  7:57 PM
Jmpasq wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Sucks... he simply has no handle on the roster. Everyone is frustrated. Guys that should be paying aren't. Guys that are playing shouldn't. We play not to win but to play defense. We are too talent for this. We're not a top 5 team in the east... but we are absolutely a 6 or 7th seed. We should be looking to make a trade to push us higher in the standings.... now were just going to spiral. It's such a waste to trade guys away for picks... Mark my words were going to be doing that for KP in his contract year. We're not trying to win. It's disgusting.

Yeah its Hornacecks fault our 2 best players can't make free throws to put games away. Also Hardaway jr has to be the worst player ive ever seen in clutch situations. Porzingis is not going to stick around to play with these bums we should trade him before we lose him for nothing

Generally I agree with you that it is to soon to talk about firing Hornacek. However I am getting closer to the idea that it has to be considered. This is a rebuilding year thus Hornacek's role as coach is more about development of the players and the team as opposed to wins and losses.

Specifically it is Hornacek's role to establish an identity for the team. The Knicks have played 55 games this season and they are no closer to having an identify than they were at the beginning of the season. KP touched on this after the Boston game with this quote: "Boston has an identity we are still trying to find ours" That's Hornacek's fault and that is a fire-able offense

IMHO, at the tender age of 19 Frank is the best defensive guard in the NBA. Defensive metrics say KP is one of the NBA's best defensive big men The Knicks also have other defensive stalwarts such as Lance Thomas. The best path to success moving forward for this franchise is to establish its identity defensively. The fact that Hornacek has not done so is coaching negligence. He still has 28 games but if he fails to do so he does deserve to be fired

knicks1248
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2/5/2018  8:22 PM
awe1028 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Sucks... he simply has no handle on the roster. Everyone is frustrated. Guys that should be paying aren't. Guys that are playing shouldn't. We play not to win but to play defense. We are too talent for this. We're not a top 5 team in the east... but we are absolutely a 6 or 7th seed. We should be looking to make a trade to push us higher in the standings.... now were just going to spiral. It's such a waste to trade guys away for picks... Mark my words were going to be doing that for KP in his contract year. We're not trying to win. It's disgusting.

Yeah its Hornacecks fault our 2 best players can't make free throws to put games away. Also Hardaway jr has to be the worst player ive ever seen in clutch situations. Porzingis is not going to stick around to play with these bums we should trade him before we lose him for nothing

Generally I agree with you that it is to soon to talk about firing Hornacek. However I am getting closer to the idea that it has to be considered. This is a rebuilding year thus Hornacek's role as coach is more about development of the players and the team as opposed to wins and losses.

Specifically it is Hornacek's role to establish an identity for the team. The Knicks have played 55 games this season and they are no closer to having an identify than they were at the beginning of the season. KP touched on this after the Boston game with this quote: "Boston has an identity we are still trying to find ours" That's Hornacek's fault and that is a fire-able offense

IMHO, at the tender age of 19 Frank is the best defensive guard in the NBA. Defensive metrics say KP is one of the NBA's best defensive big men The Knicks also have other defensive stalwarts such as Lance Thomas. The best path to success moving forward for this franchise is to establish its identity defensively. The fact that Hornacek has not done so is coaching negligence. He still has 28 games but if he fails to do so he does deserve to be fired

How on earth can you play 2 guys who barely ever shoot the ball (they have gone consecutive games with taken less than 5 shots combined). "You know the saying Good defense but that was just better offense" Thats us on a nightly basis

Those guys may possess solid man to man defense, but they are just as bad when it comes to "team defense" as anybody on the roster, and that primarily falls on the coaching staff.

The overall minutes distribution for certain players on this team is very inconsistent and that's why the team play is inconsistent, its a direct correlation

ES
nyknickzingis
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2/5/2018  11:49 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/5/2018  11:51 PM
Wait I thought according to the media and LeBron that Phil was to blame.
Perhaps Hornachek just needs a star young guard. Even without the Triangle or Phil's meddling it ends up at the same spot.

How many coaches win without a star guard?
Maybe only Pop.

Kemet
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2/6/2018  4:19 AM
After last season 82 game performance of NO-DEFENSE plus having a offense of 48 minutes of iso-scorers Melo Rose n KP leading the Knicks to a 2016-17 Lottery season .. Phil was supposed to FIRE Hornacek before the season was over but Phil was to busy flirting around with Melo n KP poor nightly performances
Nalod
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2/6/2018  11:37 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:

What do you think he meant by that?

I think that he feels he has starter talent but is physically not up to task yet.
Anyone surprised? He is a full year younger than most one and done.
If physically not able to play, his defense and ball handle suffers. The shot was god awful.
Worried? Not chronic injured so lets not over do it.
I suppose more minutes in Gleague would not have worked. He is a quick learner but these guys do hit walls both physical and mental.
Takes time to take knowledge and implement to instinct!

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
awe1028
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2/6/2018  12:19 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
awe1028 wrote:
Jmpasq wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Sucks... he simply has no handle on the roster. Everyone is frustrated. Guys that should be paying aren't. Guys that are playing shouldn't. We play not to win but to play defense. We are too talent for this. We're not a top 5 team in the east... but we are absolutely a 6 or 7th seed. We should be looking to make a trade to push us higher in the standings.... now were just going to spiral. It's such a waste to trade guys away for picks... Mark my words were going to be doing that for KP in his contract year. We're not trying to win. It's disgusting.

Yeah its Hornacecks fault our 2 best players can't make free throws to put games away. Also Hardaway jr has to be the worst player ive ever seen in clutch situations. Porzingis is not going to stick around to play with these bums we should trade him before we lose him for nothing

Generally I agree with you that it is to soon to talk about firing Hornacek. However I am getting closer to the idea that it has to be considered. This is a rebuilding year thus Hornacek's role as coach is more about development of the players and the team as opposed to wins and losses.

Specifically it is Hornacek's role to establish an identity for the team. The Knicks have played 55 games this season and they are no closer to having an identify than they were at the beginning of the season. KP touched on this after the Boston game with this quote: "Boston has an identity we are still trying to find ours" That's Hornacek's fault and that is a fire-able offense

IMHO, at the tender age of 19 Frank is the best defensive guard in the NBA. Defensive metrics say KP is one of the NBA's best defensive big men The Knicks also have other defensive stalwarts such as Lance Thomas. The best path to success moving forward for this franchise is to establish its identity defensively. The fact that Hornacek has not done so is coaching negligence. He still has 28 games but if he fails to do so he does deserve to be fired



How on earth can you play 2 guys who barely ever shoot the ball
(they have gone consecutive games with taken less than 5 shots combined). "You know the saying Good defense but that was just better offense" Thats us on a nightly basis

Those guys may possess solid man to man defense, but they are just as bad when it comes to "team defense" as anybody on the roster, and that primarily falls on the coaching staff.

The overall minutes distribution for certain players on this team is very inconsistent and that's why the team play is inconsistent, its a direct correlation


That is the point you put Frank in a position where he has to shoot more which pushes him past his hesitancy to shoot. Another player with 2 way potential I forgot to mention: Damyean Dotson. Terrific shooter (we need outside shooting) and a terrific on ball defender. Dotson and Frank in the back court - would be a a nightmare for opposing back courts defensively. Especially now that the Knicks are out of it these potential defensive/2 way players are the ones Hornacek should be playing.
martin
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2/6/2018  12:30 PM
awe1028 wrote:That is the point you put Frank in a position where he has to shoot more which pushes him past his hesitancy to shoot. Another player with 2 way potential I forgot to mention: Damyean Dotson. Terrific shooter (we need outside shooting) and a terrific on ball defender. Dotson and Frank in the back court - would be a a nightmare for opposing back courts defensively. Especially now that the Knicks are out of it these potential defensive/2 way players are the ones Hornacek should be playing.

Easier said than done though right? Who are you sitting to play Dotson? Lee, THJr, McD?

Hopefully after the trade deadline Dotson gets minutes.

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GoNyGoNyGo
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2/6/2018  2:06 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:I have to agree. I like him but he has not shown that he can "grow" players or a team. Too many mistakes happening too often. They lack discipline, they are not progressing.

THjr walked off an said something to him yesterday. WE all recall what happened in Phoenix. He seems like a nice guy but there is evidence that guys have a real dislike for him...weird.

A few days later and I am not as sure I want him to go. I think he needs better guard play to see what kind of a coach he is. ALthough I do think there is something to his personality that turns off some players.

In the end, the players must perform and lately every night another guy seems to cost the game.

In the end, some stability would be nice. Being a Sloan disciple, i am sure he knows the game and what needs to be fixed.

17 years of sucking starts getting to me sometimes!!

Yet another mistake by Dolan. When will it end?
Sorry but Horny had to go

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