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Author Poll
AboveDaRim1115
Posts: 47
Joined: 1/8/2017
Member: #6422

What do you think the Knicks should decide to do before trade deadline?
Trade 2018 first Round Pick for assets
Decide to wait until the summer of 2019 to sign FA
Trade Veterans for assets
Trade Willy G for assets
Trade 2018 First round pick and Noah for assets
Fire Jeff Hornaceck
Hire A different Head Coach
Become Sellers and tank this season
Become buyers and go all in for another All Star to play alongside KP
Try to make playoffs at a low seed this year
Trade for Aaron Gordon
Trade for Tyreke Evans
Do Nothing!
Decide to continue and rebuild through the NBA draft
Play younger players heavy minutes to develope this season
View Results


Author Thread
TripleThreat
Posts: 21716
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

2/3/2018  2:37 AM
The Knicks in their current position should not be trading draft picks of any kind moving forward. Esp 2nd round picks. NBA 1st round picks are vested wtih two years of GUARANTEED MONEY and then two options years in the first four years of team control. 2nd round picks are guaranteed ZERO MONEY of any kind. This makes player control more difficult but the salary cap issues more manageable for 2nd round picks. As more and more teams are at the cap threshold or into the tax zone, those 2nd round picks become more valuable over time. The market shift for the rise in the valuation of 2nd round picks was somewhat predictable two offseasons ago. That the Knicks did not prepare as such was a poor market based decision for the long term.

Free agency is incredibly easy and incredibly hard. The Knicks will not get Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents. Zero chance. Guys with the options to get max money and go to a winning/contending situation will not pick the Knicks. Tier 3 guys will be overpays of some kind. Max years and above market AAV will the only enticements. By nature, these will be poor market based decisions. In Tier 4 and Tier 5, the Knicks will have to look for bargains. Only there can the Knicks assess if any good market based contracts are possible. In most cases the the cap space would be better preserved to "rent in trades" to take in bad contracts packaged with some kind of asset or assets.

The Knicks have tried to trade everyone on that roster not named Zinger/Hernangomez/Frank N. Many of the contracts are players teams don't want anymore or their market cost is too prohibitive or they are poor market based values for their rosters. This is the tax on a poor market based decision. That player is stuck on your roster. For a reason.

Trading Hernangomez would be a poor market based decision. He's young and cost controlled. He's had sophomore regression but that's not unusual for many players.

It would take more than a single 1st round pick to dump Noah. He's a dead contract and the Knicks are stuck with him.

If the Knicks fire Hornacek, they run the real risk of being a job considered toxic for any coach with actual options. He's not Erik Spolestra, but Spolestra could not get this team into the playoffs. He's a veteran coach and this team is playing defense most of the time, which for the Knicks is pretty rare. The reality is that the Knicks, like a few other teams, should have NEVER let Kenny Atkinson go. The guy is just a flat out great coach. He's one of the best developmental coaches in the league. Erik Spolestra was stuck in a film room before Pat Riley groomed him. If the Knicks don't have a young successor in place, they are better off leaving some kind of stability on the team.

The Knicks have and are trying to sell. No one wants what they have right now. This team is in a tricky position. Tanking will only further demoralize the mercurial Zinger. But it should have been done to start. The problem is the East is gutted, so even a busted Knicks squad is a treadmill team.

There's nothing to buy. The things the Knicks have to trade that teams want, the Knicks want to keep. The things the Knicks want to trade, the reason the Knicks want to dump them is the SAME REASON those teams don't want to acquire them.

The Knicks are not getting Aaron Gordon. Period.

Playing younger players, rookies like Frank N and Dotson have never played this kind of volume before, with this kind of competition. It's not even the All Star break yet. Pushing them too hard now risks them to injury. Guys here clamoring to see young and raw players being overexposed is kind of insane.

It's not hard. It sucks but it's not hard. At each juncture, evaluate all options and make the best market based decision given the time and place.

When teams are actually making the BEST MARKET PLACE DECISION, their options are quite limited in scope. The draft is very short. FA doesn't have many options. Their are no market inefficiencies in the NBA market structure. Contracts are guaranteed. Most of what I post on this site is market based on evaluation. Meaning what I post is usually in line with the thought process of an actual NBA front office. Well, a functional one. I recognize many people don't agree with me at times, but more critically, the market CONCEPTS I bring up, are really the key issue. These concepts are often universal in the current environment.

Taking the best market based choice is not a guarantee of results, it's a guarantee to have the most options and opportunity given the situation. These are different concepts. Many people see a failure of results as a total failure. Given the imbalance of how the NBA actually operates within it's own market, all you can do is seek relative opportunity and hope for the best. In essence, a slim chance is better than no chance at all and many decisions lead to a no chance at all scenario.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
AUTOADVERT
joec32033
Posts: 29563
Alba Posts: 37
Joined: 2/3/2004
Member: #583
USA
2/3/2018  3:16 AM
Dude...none of these choices are mutually exclusive. and hiring a different coach and firing JH are the same thing. I'm a simple man, and trying to figure out which single thing to vote for gave me a migraine.
~You can't run from who you are.~
PassTheBall
Posts: 20026
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 8/2/2014
Member: #5872
Norway
2/3/2018  5:01 AM
Too many options. Need a better poll.
/PassTheBall
Jmpasq
Posts: 23276
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Joined: 4/10/2012
Member: #4182

2/3/2018  7:32 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/3/2018  9:26 AM
TripleThreat wrote:The Knicks in their current position should not be trading draft picks of any kind moving forward. Esp 2nd round picks. NBA 1st round picks are vested wtih two years of GUARANTEED MONEY and then two options years in the first four years of team control. 2nd round picks are guaranteed ZERO MONEY of any kind. This makes player control more difficult but the salary cap issues more manageable for 2nd round picks. As more and more teams are at the cap threshold or into the tax zone, those 2nd round picks become more valuable over time. The market shift for the rise in the valuation of 2nd round picks was somewhat predictable two offseasons ago. That the Knicks did not prepare as such was a poor market based decision for the long term.

Free agency is incredibly easy and incredibly hard. The Knicks will not get Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents. Zero chance. Guys with the options to get max money and go to a winning/contending situation will not pick the Knicks. Tier 3 guys will be overpays of some kind. Max years and above market AAV will the only enticements. By nature, these will be poor market based decisions. In Tier 4 and Tier 5, the Knicks will have to look for bargains. Only there can the Knicks assess if any good market based contracts are possible. In most cases the the cap space would be better preserved to "rent in trades" to take in bad contracts packaged with some kind of asset or assets.

The Knicks have tried to trade everyone on that roster not named Zinger/Hernangomez/Frank N. Many of the contracts are players teams don't want anymore or their market cost is too prohibitive or they are poor market based values for their rosters. This is the tax on a poor market based decision. That player is stuck on your roster. For a reason.

Trading Hernangomez would be a poor market based decision. He's young and cost controlled. He's had sophomore regression but that's not unusual for many players.

It would take more than a single 1st round pick to dump Noah. He's a dead contract and the Knicks are stuck with him.

If the Knicks fire Hornacek, they run the real risk of being a job considered toxic for any coach with actual options. He's not Erik Spolestra, but Spolestra could not get this team into the playoffs. He's a veteran coach and this team is playing defense most of the time, which for the Knicks is pretty rare. The reality is that the Knicks, like a few other teams, should have NEVER let Kenny Atkinson go. The guy is just a flat out great coach. He's one of the best developmental coaches in the league. Erik Spolestra was stuck in a film room before Pat Riley groomed him. If the Knicks don't have a young successor in place, they are better off leaving some kind of stability on the team.

The Knicks have and are trying to sell. No one wants what they have right now. This team is in a tricky position. Tanking will only further demoralize the mercurial Zinger. But it should have been done to start. The problem is the East is gutted, so even a busted Knicks squad is a treadmill team.

There's nothing to buy. The things the Knicks have to trade that teams want, the Knicks want to keep. The things the Knicks want to trade, the reason the Knicks want to dump them is the SAME REASON those teams don't want to acquire them.

The Knicks are not getting Aaron Gordon. Period.

Playing younger players, rookies like Frank N and Dotson have never played this kind of volume before, with this kind of competition. It's not even the All Star break yet. Pushing them too hard now risks them to injury. Guys here clamoring to see young and raw players being overexposed is kind of insane.

It's not hard. It sucks but it's not hard. At each juncture, evaluate all options and make the best market based decision given the time and place.

When teams are actually making the BEST MARKET PLACE DECISION, their options are quite limited in scope. The draft is very short. FA doesn't have many options. Their are no market inefficiencies in the NBA market structure. Contracts are guaranteed. Most of what I post on this site is market based on evaluation. Meaning what I post is usually in line with the thought process of an actual NBA front office. Well, a functional one. I recognize many people don't agree with me at times, but more critically, the market CONCEPTS I bring up, are really the key issue. These concepts are often universal in the current environment.

Taking the best market based choice is not a guarantee of results, it's a guarantee to have the most options and opportunity given the situation. These are different concepts. Many people see a failure of results as a total failure. Given the imbalance of how the NBA actually operates within it's own market, all you can do is seek relative opportunity and hope for the best. In essence, a slim chance is better than no chance at all and many decisions lead to a no chance at all scenario.


First off love your posts man. Unfortunately they highlight the trouble the Knicks are in.

The Knicks made a huge mistake not tanking this season. I believe it was based on fear not by logic. Porzingis basically forced their hand. His threats forced them into Hardaway. Hardaway is a nice player but best scenario he is paid what he is worth, at best a .500 team.

I've taking some crap from some here for wanting to trade Porzigis but it wasn't just based on his talent. It was based on building a foundation of players. It was about grabbing 5-6 cost controlled players within a short time span. Get picks for Porzingis, take on Deng, be a facilitator in a large trade and get a young player or an asset. Maybe in the Deng trade you get Randle and an unprotected pick. All I know is we are headed for the treadmill. I'm not sure the best way to build a team is to pick between 10-16 for 3 straight years because thats where this roster is maxing out. There is very little flexibility to get better here. Its basically hope we take Mitchell over Frank the next time we get the chance

Check out My NFL Draft Prospect Videos at Youtube User Pages Jmpasq,JPdraftjedi,Jmpasqdraftjedi. www.Draftbreakdown.com
HofstraBBall
Posts: 22693
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 11/21/2015
Member: #6192

2/3/2018  10:21 AM
Mistake to trade any draft picks. Only chance we have is to gain young assets, like Boston did successfully.
2019 is just another 2016,2017,2018 dream of getting a solid free agent.Won't happen. We will just get another Noah
Definitely trade Vets. We don't have anyone that will be part of anything anytime soon.
Willy is too young, cost effective to give up on.
You don't trade to get rid of Noah. He will get full salary through 2019 and then stretched for 3 years.
Fire Jeff? Too late. I wanted Tom Thibodeau
No tank but trade for assets. Makes no sense to tank or dump guys like Lee, Kanter or KO unless we get back assets.
Do not trade for any high profile names as that would cost us assets and does not match our timeline.

I would like to see us resign Kanter. Keep Lee and Willy. Add a wing off waivers. Trade Buckets, KO, LT and Beasley for picks. I would add Lee to that list if it's for an expiring and 1st rounder.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
fwk00
Posts: 20889
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Joined: 5/20/2015
Member: #6048

2/3/2018  11:07 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/3/2018  11:11 AM
TripleThreat wrote:The Knicks in their current position should not be trading draft picks of any kind moving forward. Esp 2nd round picks. NBA 1st round picks are vested wtih two years of GUARANTEED MONEY and then two options years in the first four years of team control. 2nd round picks are guaranteed ZERO MONEY of any kind. This makes player control more difficult but the salary cap issues more manageable for 2nd round picks. As more and more teams are at the cap threshold or into the tax zone, those 2nd round picks become more valuable over time. The market shift for the rise in the valuation of 2nd round picks was somewhat predictable two offseasons ago. That the Knicks did not prepare as such was a poor market based decision for the long term.

Free agency is incredibly easy and incredibly hard. The Knicks will not get Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents. Zero chance. Guys with the options to get max money and go to a winning/contending situation will not pick the Knicks. Tier 3 guys will be overpays of some kind. Max years and above market AAV will the only enticements. By nature, these will be poor market based decisions. In Tier 4 and Tier 5, the Knicks will have to look for bargains. Only there can the Knicks assess if any good market based contracts are possible. In most cases the the cap space would be better preserved to "rent in trades" to take in bad contracts packaged with some kind of asset or assets.

The Knicks have tried to trade everyone on that roster not named Zinger/Hernangomez/Frank N. Many of the contracts are players teams don't want anymore or their market cost is too prohibitive or they are poor market based values for their rosters. This is the tax on a poor market based decision. That player is stuck on your roster. For a reason.

Trading Hernangomez would be a poor market based decision. He's young and cost controlled. He's had sophomore regression but that's not unusual for many players.

It would take more than a single 1st round pick to dump Noah. He's a dead contract and the Knicks are stuck with him.

If the Knicks fire Hornacek, they run the real risk of being a job considered toxic for any coach with actual options. He's not Erik Spolestra, but Spolestra could not get this team into the playoffs. He's a veteran coach and this team is playing defense most of the time, which for the Knicks is pretty rare. The reality is that the Knicks, like a few other teams, should have NEVER let Kenny Atkinson go. The guy is just a flat out great coach. He's one of the best developmental coaches in the league. Erik Spolestra was stuck in a film room before Pat Riley groomed him. If the Knicks don't have a young successor in place, they are better off leaving some kind of stability on the team.

The Knicks have and are trying to sell. No one wants what they have right now. This team is in a tricky position. Tanking will only further demoralize the mercurial Zinger. But it should have been done to start. The problem is the East is gutted, so even a busted Knicks squad is a treadmill team.

There's nothing to buy. The things the Knicks have to trade that teams want, the Knicks want to keep. The things the Knicks want to trade, the reason the Knicks want to dump them is the SAME REASON those teams don't want to acquire them.

The Knicks are not getting Aaron Gordon. Period.

Playing younger players, rookies like Frank N and Dotson have never played this kind of volume before, with this kind of competition. It's not even the All Star break yet. Pushing them too hard now risks them to injury. Guys here clamoring to see young and raw players being overexposed is kind of insane.

It's not hard. It sucks but it's not hard. At each juncture, evaluate all options and make the best market based decision given the time and place.

When teams are actually making the BEST MARKET PLACE DECISION, their options are quite limited in scope. The draft is very short. FA doesn't have many options. Their are no market inefficiencies in the NBA market structure. Contracts are guaranteed. Most of what I post on this site is market based on evaluation. Meaning what I post is usually in line with the thought process of an actual NBA front office. Well, a functional one. I recognize many people don't agree with me at times, but more critically, the market CONCEPTS I bring up, are really the key issue. These concepts are often universal in the current environment.

Taking the best market based choice is not a guarantee of results, it's a guarantee to have the most options and opportunity given the situation. These are different concepts. Many people see a failure of results as a total failure. Given the imbalance of how the NBA actually operates within it's own market, all you can do is seek relative opportunity and hope for the best. In essence, a slim chance is better than no chance at all and many decisions lead to a no chance at all scenario.

Trip - excellent post. You frame the Knicks eternal dilemma beautifully in all its glory. At face value, you are spot on. But what you describe is a never-ending cycle of futility UNLESS and IF and ONLY IF (IFF) the Knicks somehow continue to strike gold in the draft AND the attrition of good players isn't decimated by injury or whatnot. In other words, we're on a treadmill of mediocrity for the foreseeable future.

I've spent thirty odd years as a systems analyst of one kind or another and just for grins would like to suggest a few things that might disrupt or break this pattern of futility.

First, an inventory of assets; Untouchables, short-timers, G-Leaguers, and yes, future draft picks.

Second, an honest assessment of the likelihood of succeeding in following the formula you describe in winning games. Here I'm speaking to your accurate business analysis of managing budgets and so on which is largely ambivalent on the subject of winning games.

So we have two untouchables, Frankie and Porzingis though I would trade Porzingis for the right package in a heartbeat.

Everybody else could be considered a short-timer. Our two signed G-Leaguers are dubious talents but fishing around the G-League might be a worthwhile exercise if the roster needs bodies.

And to speak to your first point, the Knicks first-rounder should be made available *because* of the guaranteed money. At this trade deadline what we should be stock-piling is second-round picks who, as you say, have no strings attached AND who stick with the team not because of draft reputation but because they show they can play.

Furthermore, in a weak draft, the Knicks would have to be uncanny in repeating their luck in the last few drafts.

And lastly, holding that draft pick is an excuse to lose instead of win and this team needs to nurture a winning, not losing, culture.

So we have a shiny, desirable asset #1 AND our scouting attention is now not on the first-rounders this year but on the second-rounders AND players who were highly regarded in previous drafts who could be acquired in small trades.

We agree completely on the FA market. Until the Knicks start winning games, no one of consequence is coming in this direction.

To speak to your assertion that our tradeable assets aren't because they are "players teams don't want anymore or their market cost is too prohibitive or they are poor market based values for their rosters". Okay. Let's break that down.

We know, KOQ and Willie *ARE* being inquired about. The question with both is what they could return either one-for-one or bundled with our first-rounder. Two more shiny assets.

We also have Kanter, Thomas, and CLee who we don't hear much about but who presumably must fit a playoff contender niche somewhere. In the case of these two, any trade would likely be lop-sided in favor of the buyer. Here, the pain factor and desirability of the incoming asset determine the decision.

Now where we part ways is in your assertion that there's nothing to buy. I disagree. And my disagreement is based on the idea that the NBA system can't be broken. I think it can be and the goal in the next week and in the summer is to beat it. In other words the Knicks need too operate like a disruptive agent rather than a passive victim.

First, the Knicks should not be buyers or sellers. The Knicks have to be looking to exchange assets for *the best value they can get*. This doesn't mean winning trades, it means satisfying a thirst.

Okay, so how to break the system? In agreeing that we're trading [this year's first-rounder only!] draft pick, we internally gain nothing by tanking. This does two things. Teams that are tanking become easier games to win and, in doing so, the Knicks at least look and play more respectively. And, YES, it matters.

Now, the other criticism I hear all the time on these boards is that this expendable player or that "is only worth" a second-round pick. Let's turn that maxim on its head. Let's ask for two second-round picks in separate years. While we won't be drafting the sexy first-rounders who are tied to big buck commitments, we will have a nice reservoir of hungry second-rounders who fight for roster spots on the big club or for the Westchester Knicks. Let's own that market.

So what have we done. Well, those players who seemed too expensive to other teams suddenly are quite affordable. We move a redundant asset and refill that role with an up-and-coming signing from the G-league, overseas player, or NBA orphan needing a second-chance. It doesn't matter because we're fishing for talent we couldn't get any other way. Useful vets get moved, kids/second-lifers get promoted. All we're doing is improving the talent pool even if by a hair.

We also know there are sellers and tankers. They won't be interested in our vets unless we take back a lop-sided contract. Seems to me that we should stop fighting lop-sided trades and contracts. If our goal is to win and our chances of ever getting better are locked in an existing system meant to keep us down, we need to take some risks.

So again, stop trying to 'win' trades and start disrupting the system. The goal is to strategically identify talent that's useful to constructing a winning team rather than worry about spreadsheets or trade grades. For example, is having a Batum better than having a Noah? The accountants gag at the thought but...

The other way to disrupt the system is to offer our shiny object assets to playoff contenders who are underdogs first. Greed motivates a better return. And rather than barter, be willing to be satisfied. If an underdog has an asset to trade that we like, get it. Be happy. A bird in hand is worth two in Free Agency.

The best market decisions are what got us here. We need to start constructing a winning team. That means taking chances, working with a riskier spreadsheet, and being less predictable. We aren't wining anything playing it safe.

arkrud
Posts: 30922
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USA
2/4/2018  12:20 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/4/2018  12:21 AM
fwk00 wrote:
TripleThreat wrote:The Knicks in their current position should not be trading draft picks of any kind moving forward. Esp 2nd round picks. NBA 1st round picks are vested wtih two years of GUARANTEED MONEY and then two options years in the first four years of team control. 2nd round picks are guaranteed ZERO MONEY of any kind. This makes player control more difficult but the salary cap issues more manageable for 2nd round picks. As more and more teams are at the cap threshold or into the tax zone, those 2nd round picks become more valuable over time. The market shift for the rise in the valuation of 2nd round picks was somewhat predictable two offseasons ago. That the Knicks did not prepare as such was a poor market based decision for the long term.

Free agency is incredibly easy and incredibly hard. The Knicks will not get Tier 1 and Tier 2 free agents. Zero chance. Guys with the options to get max money and go to a winning/contending situation will not pick the Knicks. Tier 3 guys will be overpays of some kind. Max years and above market AAV will the only enticements. By nature, these will be poor market based decisions. In Tier 4 and Tier 5, the Knicks will have to look for bargains. Only there can the Knicks assess if any good market based contracts are possible. In most cases the the cap space would be better preserved to "rent in trades" to take in bad contracts packaged with some kind of asset or assets.

The Knicks have tried to trade everyone on that roster not named Zinger/Hernangomez/Frank N. Many of the contracts are players teams don't want anymore or their market cost is too prohibitive or they are poor market based values for their rosters. This is the tax on a poor market based decision. That player is stuck on your roster. For a reason.

Trading Hernangomez would be a poor market based decision. He's young and cost controlled. He's had sophomore regression but that's not unusual for many players.

It would take more than a single 1st round pick to dump Noah. He's a dead contract and the Knicks are stuck with him.

If the Knicks fire Hornacek, they run the real risk of being a job considered toxic for any coach with actual options. He's not Erik Spolestra, but Spolestra could not get this team into the playoffs. He's a veteran coach and this team is playing defense most of the time, which for the Knicks is pretty rare. The reality is that the Knicks, like a few other teams, should have NEVER let Kenny Atkinson go. The guy is just a flat out great coach. He's one of the best developmental coaches in the league. Erik Spolestra was stuck in a film room before Pat Riley groomed him. If the Knicks don't have a young successor in place, they are better off leaving some kind of stability on the team.

The Knicks have and are trying to sell. No one wants what they have right now. This team is in a tricky position. Tanking will only further demoralize the mercurial Zinger. But it should have been done to start. The problem is the East is gutted, so even a busted Knicks squad is a treadmill team.

There's nothing to buy. The things the Knicks have to trade that teams want, the Knicks want to keep. The things the Knicks want to trade, the reason the Knicks want to dump them is the SAME REASON those teams don't want to acquire them.

The Knicks are not getting Aaron Gordon. Period.

Playing younger players, rookies like Frank N and Dotson have never played this kind of volume before, with this kind of competition. It's not even the All Star break yet. Pushing them too hard now risks them to injury. Guys here clamoring to see young and raw players being overexposed is kind of insane.

It's not hard. It sucks but it's not hard. At each juncture, evaluate all options and make the best market based decision given the time and place.

When teams are actually making the BEST MARKET PLACE DECISION, their options are quite limited in scope. The draft is very short. FA doesn't have many options. Their are no market inefficiencies in the NBA market structure. Contracts are guaranteed. Most of what I post on this site is market based on evaluation. Meaning what I post is usually in line with the thought process of an actual NBA front office. Well, a functional one. I recognize many people don't agree with me at times, but more critically, the market CONCEPTS I bring up, are really the key issue. These concepts are often universal in the current environment.

Taking the best market based choice is not a guarantee of results, it's a guarantee to have the most options and opportunity given the situation. These are different concepts. Many people see a failure of results as a total failure. Given the imbalance of how the NBA actually operates within it's own market, all you can do is seek relative opportunity and hope for the best. In essence, a slim chance is better than no chance at all and many decisions lead to a no chance at all scenario.

Trip - excellent post. You frame the Knicks eternal dilemma beautifully in all its glory. At face value, you are spot on. But what you describe is a never-ending cycle of futility UNLESS and IF and ONLY IF (IFF) the Knicks somehow continue to strike gold in the draft AND the attrition of good players isn't decimated by injury or whatnot. In other words, we're on a treadmill of mediocrity for the foreseeable future.

I've spent thirty odd years as a systems analyst of one kind or another and just for grins would like to suggest a few things that might disrupt or break this pattern of futility.

First, an inventory of assets; Untouchables, short-timers, G-Leaguers, and yes, future draft picks.

Second, an honest assessment of the likelihood of succeeding in following the formula you describe in winning games. Here I'm speaking to your accurate business analysis of managing budgets and so on which is largely ambivalent on the subject of winning games.

So we have two untouchables, Frankie and Porzingis though I would trade Porzingis for the right package in a heartbeat.

Everybody else could be considered a short-timer. Our two signed G-Leaguers are dubious talents but fishing around the G-League might be a worthwhile exercise if the roster needs bodies.

And to speak to your first point, the Knicks first-rounder should be made available *because* of the guaranteed money. At this trade deadline what we should be stock-piling is second-round picks who, as you say, have no strings attached AND who stick with the team not because of draft reputation but because they show they can play.

Furthermore, in a weak draft, the Knicks would have to be uncanny in repeating their luck in the last few drafts.

And lastly, holding that draft pick is an excuse to lose instead of win and this team needs to nurture a winning, not losing, culture.

So we have a shiny, desirable asset #1 AND our scouting attention is now not on the first-rounders this year but on the second-rounders AND players who were highly regarded in previous drafts who could be acquired in small trades.

We agree completely on the FA market. Until the Knicks start winning games, no one of consequence is coming in this direction.

To speak to your assertion that our tradeable assets aren't because they are "players teams don't want anymore or their market cost is too prohibitive or they are poor market based values for their rosters". Okay. Let's break that down.

We know, KOQ and Willie *ARE* being inquired about. The question with both is what they could return either one-for-one or bundled with our first-rounder. Two more shiny assets.

We also have Kanter, Thomas, and CLee who we don't hear much about but who presumably must fit a playoff contender niche somewhere. In the case of these two, any trade would likely be lop-sided in favor of the buyer. Here, the pain factor and desirability of the incoming asset determine the decision.

Now where we part ways is in your assertion that there's nothing to buy. I disagree. And my disagreement is based on the idea that the NBA system can't be broken. I think it can be and the goal in the next week and in the summer is to beat it. In other words the Knicks need too operate like a disruptive agent rather than a passive victim.

First, the Knicks should not be buyers or sellers. The Knicks have to be looking to exchange assets for *the best value they can get*. This doesn't mean winning trades, it means satisfying a thirst.

Okay, so how to break the system? In agreeing that we're trading [this year's first-rounder only!] draft pick, we internally gain nothing by tanking. This does two things. Teams that are tanking become easier games to win and, in doing so, the Knicks at least look and play more respectively. And, YES, it matters.

Now, the other criticism I hear all the time on these boards is that this expendable player or that "is only worth" a second-round pick. Let's turn that maxim on its head. Let's ask for two second-round picks in separate years. While we won't be drafting the sexy first-rounders who are tied to big buck commitments, we will have a nice reservoir of hungry second-rounders who fight for roster spots on the big club or for the Westchester Knicks. Let's own that market.

So what have we done. Well, those players who seemed too expensive to other teams suddenly are quite affordable. We move a redundant asset and refill that role with an up-and-coming signing from the G-league, overseas player, or NBA orphan needing a second-chance. It doesn't matter because we're fishing for talent we couldn't get any other way. Useful vets get moved, kids/second-lifers get promoted. All we're doing is improving the talent pool even if by a hair.

We also know there are sellers and tankers. They won't be interested in our vets unless we take back a lop-sided contract. Seems to me that we should stop fighting lop-sided trades and contracts. If our goal is to win and our chances of ever getting better are locked in an existing system meant to keep us down, we need to take some risks.

So again, stop trying to 'win' trades and start disrupting the system. The goal is to strategically identify talent that's useful to constructing a winning team rather than worry about spreadsheets or trade grades. For example, is having a Batum better than having a Noah? The accountants gag at the thought but...

The other way to disrupt the system is to offer our shiny object assets to playoff contenders who are underdogs first. Greed motivates a better return. And rather than barter, be willing to be satisfied. If an underdog has an asset to trade that we like, get it. Be happy. A bird in hand is worth two in Free Agency.

The best market decisions are what got us here. We need to start constructing a winning team. That means taking chances, working with a riskier spreadsheet, and being less predictable. We aren't wining anything playing it safe.

Knicks organization was gambling with the team roster for 15 years and look where we are now.
Exactly where gambler should be - we broke.
The only way to became a powerhouse in NBA is to patiently build the team with constant strategy for 5-7 years minimum.
This cannot be acceptable by any kind of fans, especially NY fans.
So it is the time for the organization to ignore the fans and work on building the future.

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
JesseDark
Posts: 21718
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Joined: 9/9/2003
Member: #467
2/4/2018  1:41 AM
Voeted for try to make playoffs at low seed. This will keep KP happy and help our younger guy too. I got another question, how much of our core is already here?
Bring back dee-fense
BRIGGS
Posts: 50253
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Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
2/4/2018  2:33 AM
I’d try to trade C Lee Willy Oquinn and even Beasley for the best draft assets I can get

I’d mandate to play Frank Dotson and Burke 30 minutes. I’d keep KP and thj down to 24 and bring up the best 6-7/ 6-8 g league sf for minutes as well. If I only win 5 games rest of year I don’t care.

I made a post about Gary Trent yesterday and it was po pooed but I was dead serious. He is my number 1 draft target past 5. We are #30 in 3s made and he is an eloquent shooter with great2 guard size.

I have other guys I’m tracking both in the draft trade market and fa but right now the only focus I have is to get the best draft position I can get and if we’re not top 3(we won’t be 4-5 most likely) I promise Trent to draft him if he does not work out for anyone else.

Then it’s to be continued

franco12
Posts: 30109
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Member: #599
USA
2/4/2018  6:32 AM
I'm not in a hurry to trade KOQ- but I would like to see Willy play.

If I can move Lee, even for a second rounder, I do that because I clear up some future cap space and I force Jeff to play Dotson. I know he is a second rounder, but we have to find out if he has a future here or not.

And Briggs - totally agree about playing Burke and keeping KP especially down on minutes. I might not go as far as 24, but under 30 for sure, and ideally 28.

BRIGGS
Posts: 50253
Alba Posts: 8
Joined: 7/30/2002
Member: #303
2/4/2018  2:50 PM
franco12 wrote:I'm not in a hurry to trade KOQ- but I would like to see Willy play.

If I can move Lee, even for a second rounder, I do that because I clear up some future cap space and I force Jeff to play Dotson. I know he is a second rounder, but we have to find out if he has a future here or not.

And Briggs - totally agree about playing Burke and keeping KP especially down on minutes. I might not go as far as 24, but under 30 for sure, and ideally 28.

I've watched college badketball all year and a lot of it. I know the positives and negatives of almost every guy and what we require on the Knicks. Priority 1 if not top 3 pick. Draft Gary Trent

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