technomaster wrote:Well, you can't discount the value of coaching and team culture. It says several things about Boston:
* they're deeper/more talented that it looks (honestly, when you have a bench guy covering for Kyrie and dropping a triple double, it's pretty sick). And they're doing this after tearing down and reinventing last year's 53 win team - and not having their big FA, Gordon Hayward.
* Brad Stevens is that good.
* Their culture is unflappable, and they deal with adversity very well.

You can say that the Knicks have had a wishy washy culture over the past decade or so, a few really promising years, but lately, a lot of years of mediocrity where you've had malcontents among the player leaders.

The worrisome part of all of this is that at this point we're pretty healthy at the moment (Baker aside...). KP, Kanter, and THJr are basically firing on all cylinders.

When it's all said and done Brad Stevens is going to go down as one of the best basketball coaches of all time. What he did at Butler was unbelievable. I was surprised he left for the NBA, but I was confident he would have success in the League; I just didn't think it would be this much this quickly. The C's have a coach, roster and future picks that should have them very competitive for a long time.

Bretrobert1 wrote:Back to reality, Briggs? This is just not a playoff caliber team, yet. There are some nice, young pieces but the core group isn't established. Anyone that looked at the schedule after the 25/30 game mark, knew a 2nd half pull back was going to happen.

And there's no way you trade an established, very young NBA all-star in the Unicorn for a ? in the draft. The Bulls made that mistake w/ Elton Brand years ago. And Brand had about 1/4th the ceiling of Porzingis at the time. I'm not opposed to seeing what's out there for Porzingis, but it would take a lot more than just Trae Young or another high 1st rd pick.

Bottom line is we need to establish a culture of stability. This team has a history of making bad decisions and trading away the future many times. There isn't one team who would ever trade away Porzingis, you simply can't get fair value. If word got out that we were evening listening to offers for Porzingis(as proven with Phil Jackson last summer), people around the league would just say "only the Knicks." It's time to break that mold. Build with what we have and establish the stability to become a good destination again.

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bretrobert1 wrote:Back to reality, Briggs? This is just not a playoff caliber team, yet. There are some nice, young pieces but the core group isn't established. Anyone that looked at the schedule after the 25/30 game mark, knew a 2nd half pull back was going to happen.

And there's no way you trade an established, very young NBA all-star in the Unicorn for a ? in the draft. The Bulls made that mistake w/ Elton Brand years ago. And Brand had about 1/4th the ceiling of Porzingis at the time. I'm not opposed to seeing what's out there for Porzingis, but it would take a lot more than just Trae Young or another high 1st rd pick.

Bottom line is we need to establish a culture of stability. This team has a history of making bad decisions and trading away the future many times. There isn't one team who would ever trade away Porzingis, you simply can't get fair value. If word got out that we were evening listening to offers for Porzingis(as proven with Phil Jackson last summer), people around the league would just say "only the Knicks." It's time to break that mold. Build with what we have and establish the stability to become a good destination again.

You're right--we need to add some perimeter help--and the kind that handles the ball not just 3d. Also we need a PG

With the way Rozier, Tatum, and Brown really put it to us, it's obvious we need some guard/wing help. We need to add some athleticism and playmaking in the worst way.

fishmike wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

Bretrobert1 wrote:Back to reality, Briggs? This is just not a playoff caliber team, yet. There are some nice, young pieces but the core group isn't established. Anyone that looked at the schedule after the 25/30 game mark, knew a 2nd half pull back was going to happen.

And there's no way you trade an established, very young NBA all-star in the Unicorn for a ? in the draft. The Bulls made that mistake w/ Elton Brand years ago. And Brand had about 1/4th the ceiling of Porzingis at the time. I'm not opposed to seeing what's out there for Porzingis, but it would take a lot more than just Trae Young or another high 1st rd pick.

Bottom line is we need to establish a culture of stability. This team has a history of making bad decisions and trading away the future many times. There isn't one team who would ever trade away Porzingis, you simply can't get fair value. If word got out that we were evening listening to offers for Porzingis(as proven with Phil Jackson last summer), people around the league would just say "only the Knicks." It's time to break that mold. Build with what we have and establish the stability to become a good destination again.

You're right--we need to add some perimeter help--and the kind that handles the ball not just 3d. Also we need a PG

With the way Rozier, Tatum, and Brown really put it to us, it's obvious we need some guard/wing help. We need to add some athleticism and playmaking in the worst way.

We did. Its just not ready. Dotson and Frank both fit that.. they just arent ready. Come draft and offseason you just keep at it. Frank is getting 20mpg as a 19 year old rookie. Dotson is stuck behind some other guys but especially if we move Lee we should get a nice look at him as well.

Its funny around here. People say its a 25 win team. Then when we are on pace to win 35 they say fire the coach.

Its gonna take time and thats ok. We have already take a step forward from last year.

Frank and Dotson are definitely a great start. I hope we keep Lee, he is a good wing that leads by example on both ends. I am really interested in drafting Hutchison because he is a good athlete, good length, developing skills. Sort of built like Trevor Ariza, with a little of his game from his LA, Wash, and 1st go-around in houston, where he was handling the ball a bit and creating plays. We need that type of guy on the wing. We also need an athletic backup big. But i agree, draft well and keep at it.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Per Berman, the Knicks want to get more athletic. Burke certainly helps. So does swapping out KOQ/LT for Christian Wood and Brandon Ashley. Huge upgrade right there imho. Not only are both guys more athletic, they're also two damn good all-around players!! We could do this for nothing. Trade O'Quinn for the highest pick we can get and cut LT. Add these other two forwards.

DO you really think this is a likely or even plausible path? Just cut LT? He's a captain of the team.

I hear you, fully aware of high highly the Knicks think of him--but to me, they UNBELIEVABLY overrate him. Feel bad saying it, I respect the hustle he brings, but it is what it is. We need a more skilled player there. Wood and/or Ashley in that role is a clear cut upgrade in my book (and this substitution wouldn't require much which makes it all the more appealing--cut a low-salary player, call up the G-League replacement. Either guy would be an upgrade over O'Quinn too.. O'Quinn's a tradable asset btw--big difference; I don't think LT is.

Also, LT comes from the past regime. Are you fully convinced Perry's enamoured with him? If you were Perry, wouldn't that be a spot you'd look at and say, "man, we can do better there"? I would.

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Per Berman, the Knicks want to get more athletic. Burke certainly helps. So does swapping out KOQ/LT for Christian Wood and Brandon Ashley. Huge upgrade right there imho. Not only are both guys more athletic, they're also two damn good all-around players!! We could do this for nothing. Trade O'Quinn for the highest pick we can get and cut LT. Add these other two forwards.

DO you really think this is a likely or even plausible path? Just cut LT? He's a captain of the team.

I hear you, fully aware of high highly the Knicks think of him--but to me, they UNBELIEVABLY overrate him. Feel bad saying it, I respect the hustle he brings, but it is what it is. We need a more skilled player there. Wood and/or Ashley in that role is a clear cut upgrade in my book (and this substitution wouldn't require much which makes it all the more appealing--cut a low-salary player, call up the G-League replacement. Either guy would be an upgrade over O'Quinn too.. O'Quinn's a tradable asset btw--big difference; I don't think LT is.

Also, LT comes from the past regime. Are you fully convinced Perry's enamoured with him? If you were Perry, wouldn't that be a spot you'd look at and say, "man, we can do better there"? I would.

I wouldn't say Perry is enamored with LT but it's clear that Perry and Jeff know his value. And I bet it doesn't have to do too much with production on the court. LT is there to help establish the culture they envision. A young team needs a balance of young guys matched with guys who know the business of being a professional.

Ok, difference of opinion. The stuff you're talking about is window dressing man. Secondary to amassing the best possible talent level--a competitive talent level--and we're not there yet imo.. LT might be a great teammate, good locker room guy, great glue guy, all that stuff but I think when people see what he can actually do on the court/how limited he is, the type of impact he has on the court, I think the effect you're talking about is greatly diminished in his teammates' eyes, possibly in the new GM's eyes too. You think deep down, KP's thinking "thank God I have Lance to go to war with every night" or "man, good guy, I love him, but I wish I had a better player to go to war with"? Think about it and answer truthfully. How would you feel if YOU were KP? I know for a fact I'd want a more talented player there. Does KP need to learn the ropes at this point/be taught how to respect the game/the NBA/taking practice seriously --OR-- is it more about the team putting together better talent around him that will = more Ws?? I would bet in his mind, it's the latter. Would be for me..

How much have we won since Lance has been here? Not much.. So where's the REAL impact where it counts with this player?? In fact, there's a lot of people on this board screaming that we desperately need help at SF, right? If LT was a high impact player, we probably wouldn't be saying that. He's an easy sacrifice to me at the point.

Knixkik wrote:

Bretrobert1 wrote:Back to reality, Briggs? This is just not a playoff caliber team, yet. There are some nice, young pieces but the core group isn't established. Anyone that looked at the schedule after the 25/30 game mark, knew a 2nd half pull back was going to happen.

And there's no way you trade an established, very young NBA all-star in the Unicorn for a ? in the draft. The Bulls made that mistake w/ Elton Brand years ago. And Brand had about 1/4th the ceiling of Porzingis at the time. I'm not opposed to seeing what's out there for Porzingis, but it would take a lot more than just Trae Young or another high 1st rd pick.

Bottom line is we need to establish a culture of stability. This team has a history of making bad decisions and trading away the future many times. There isn't one team who would ever trade away Porzingis, you simply can't get fair value. If word got out that we were evening listening to offers for Porzingis(as proven with Phil Jackson last summer), people around the league would just say "only the Knicks." It's time to break that mold. Build with what we have and establish the stability to become a good destination again.

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

martin wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Per Berman, the Knicks want to get more athletic. Burke certainly helps. So does swapping out KOQ/LT for Christian Wood and Brandon Ashley. Huge upgrade right there imho. Not only are both guys more athletic, they're also two damn good all-around players!! We could do this for nothing. Trade O'Quinn for the highest pick we can get and cut LT. Add these other two forwards.

DO you really think this is a likely or even plausible path? Just cut LT? He's a captain of the team.

I hear you, fully aware of high highly the Knicks think of him--but to me, they UNBELIEVABLY overrate him. Feel bad saying it, I respect the hustle he brings, but it is what it is. We need a more skilled player there. Wood and/or Ashley in that role is a clear cut upgrade in my book (and this substitution wouldn't require much which makes it all the more appealing--cut a low-salary player, call up the G-League replacement. Either guy would be an upgrade over O'Quinn too.. O'Quinn's a tradable asset btw--big difference; I don't think LT is.

Also, LT comes from the past regime. Are you fully convinced Perry's enamoured with him? If you were Perry, wouldn't that be a spot you'd look at and say, "man, we can do better there"? I would.

I wouldn't say Perry is enamored with LT but it's clear that Perry and Jeff know his value. And I bet it doesn't have to do too much with production on the court. LT is there to help establish the culture they envision. A young team needs a balance of young guys matched with guys who know the business of being a professional.

Ok, difference of opinion. The stuff you're talking about is window dressing man. Secondary to amassing the best possible talent level--a competitive talent level--and we're not there yet imo.. LT might be a great teammate, good locker room guy, great glue guy, all that stuff but I think when people see what he can actually do on the court/how limited he is, the type of impact he has on the court, I think the effect you're talking about is greatly diminished in his teammates' eyes, possibly in the new GM's eyes too. You think deep down, KP's thinking "thank God I have Lance to go to war with every night" or "man, good guy, I love him, but I wish I had a better player to go to war with"? Think about it and answer truthfully. How would you feel if YOU were KP? I know for a fact I'd want a more talented player there. Does KP need to learn the ropes at this point/be taught how to respect the game/the NBA/taking practice seriously --OR-- is it more about the team putting together better talent around him that will = more Ws?? I would bet in his mind, it's the latter. Would be for me..

How much have we won since Lance has been here? Not much.. So where's the REAL impact where it counts with this player?? In fact, there's a lot of people on this board screaming that we desperately need help at SF, right? If LT was a high impact player, we probably wouldn't be saying that. He's an easy sacrifice to me at the point.

Don't let the screaming on this board confuse you with the reality of roster construction.
Don't let individual talent confuse you with what is a team game. We loved Lance while the wins were happening. When the Wiz were stacked with young talent a few years ago they had little "Glue" from vets to keep it together. Until that happened they underperformed. There are other instances.
There is no absolute here nor is the market to move "Picks" as robust as in previous years. Thank Boston for competing at a high level while rebuilding. Good trades, good drafting and good free agent signings. But the backbone of assets is their picks.
GS built thru the draft, trades and free agent signings.
If you want a real sustainable run now is not the time "settle" and succumb to the short term. We can make a playoff push with this team and then draft.
Eye on 2019 free agency to round the team out. Keep the picks.
But don't think we can horde picks with KOQ and Lee. I'd like to, but the league is not throwing away picks like they did a few years ago.
Mozgov went for two later first round picks!!! It was crazy.