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Would You Do Hardaway Jr. And Assets For Andrew Wiggins?
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Vmart
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2/1/2018  7:01 PM
No draft picks. History says it’s a bad idea.
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Chandler
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2/1/2018  7:21 PM
Knixkik wrote:I would stay far away from Wiggins. Doesn't strike me as hungry. Hardaway, who is far less talented, has the hunger and intensity to excel in NY.

this!
I actually like THJ better than Wiggins. Any good team (we still need work) has some sore losers, who want to win every possession

too cool for school

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VCoug
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2/1/2018  7:52 PM
It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.
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TripleThreat
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2/1/2018  8:10 PM
NardDogNation wrote:So even if we were able to offload Noah in the process (and took back more salary instead), that wouldn't be enough?


The Timberwolves are one of the few teams talent wise and defense wise are seen as somewhat possible to slow down the Warriors.

79 out of a possible 105 playoff games were played last postseason. That's A LOT of revenue left on the table because top heavy teams like the Warriors and Cavs were curb stomping everyone. The networks were FURIOUS about it. They pay big dollars to see the profitable "narrative" not straight out massacres of dramatically less talented teams by stacked teams.

Making one of the few teams that MIGHT, maybe one day, slow down the Warriors enough to just not get swept makes no sense for the league

Also, this trade makes no sense of Minnesota. It's so lopsided in favor of the Knicks, it would be vetoed because the only reasonable explanation is collusion of some kind. This isn't just standard trade rape, this is prison shower by 15 guys working a conga line kind of trade rape. It's basically asking anyone who works for the Timberwolves front office to stop feeding their children.

What's even more bizarre are guys in this thread saying "No, no, we don't want Wiggins at all, even at that price" Which is baffling. Maybe he's a long shot at this point, but given how the NBA operates and talent scarcity, you take that shot.

IF , and it's a huge IF, Wiggins were to be traded, the Raptors would make a huge play and the league administration would PUSH the TWolves to trade him up to Canada. The league administration would go so far as to incentivize Minnesota to do it in some way.

Minnesota actually needs to dump Gorgui Dieng. They need more wings, not pivots. Why would they trade to equalize their wing situation numbers wise, degrade talent wise, then add in another pivot with a huge contract? If and when Noah gets bought out, the T Wolves can just get him for the vets minimum.

Any trade presented

1) Must pass The Mirror Test
2) Has to be the best overall option for a trade out of ALL 29 OTHER TEAMS and their offers
3) Must be defensible to the non Knicks team fanbase, ownership, sports media, the league administration and the networks

Sometimes nutty trades happen. We all saw this with Brian Cashman and old man Steinbrenner. Cashman would try to do X and Y, and then the old man would want to pay a middle reliever a 25 million dollar contract back when that wasn't the marketplace norm. But fundamentally you can't expect the non Knicks team to work against their own best interests in a trade.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
NardDogNation
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2/1/2018  8:30 PM    LAST EDITED: 2/1/2018  8:49 PM
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:I would do Hardaway for Wiggins and MANY assets

So even if we were able to offload Noah in the process (and took back more salary instead), that wouldn't be enough?

As I said before, I don't like Wiggins and I'm skeptical of his future growth. But he is "better" than anything we currently have at the 3-spot and I think there is a far higher probability of unloading Wiggins at $30M/yr than Noah at $18M/yr, should things go south.

Just out of curiosity, do you think Wiggins' play will ever match the hype he had coming out of the draft? I'm skeptical he ever will but was wondering what the numbers are telling you.


Wiggins is young, but I think people overrate age. If a guy has been doing the same thing for every year, the most reasonable thing is to expect he will continue to. Offloading Noah would be quite nice. You also have us trading down though. The main problem is that I just don't want our offense to have 15 to 20 shots a game taken by Wiggins under any circumstances.

Wiggins taking 15-20 shots isn't ideal but I think it's better than having Noah languish on the bench, with us being unable do anything with his money. As bad as Wiggins is, I still think a team looking to sell "hope" would take him into a sizeable portion of (cap) space.

And yeah, I did have us trading down because of how awful I thought Joakim Noah is. But in light of everything people have pointed out, I'm not entirely sure it would be necessary since Wiggins isn't quite that valuable. We should keep the pick.

Besides, the Wolves are in win-now mode, so I doubt they'd be willing to invest the minutes to develop a lottery pick. What might be more valuable to them is cap space/cap flexibility so that they avoid the luxury tax if/when they re-sign Karl Towns and Jimmy Butler. And given how expensive the contracts involved are, we could take back much more money to help them clear their books.

I'd instead try to offer something like Hardaway Jr., Joakim Noah, CHI 2018 second round pick and cash for Wiggins, Aldrich and Gorgui Dieng. That saves them about $15 million per year.

NardDogNation
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2/1/2018  8:37 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:Another ridiculous trade proposal. Wolves wouldn't do that trade without Noah in it and you want to include Noah??? Give me a break.

What is Wiggins good at?


Taking low quality shots?

Exactly. It is startling how little he does beyond being a volume scorer but do you think he will ever develop the other facets of his game? Can he be fixed and is there any precedent to a player with his profile doing so?


I think people could forgive the inefficient offense, if he played adequate defense. He has Butler to take on the tough assignments and he still sucks. The offense could improve with right coach, but he'll never live up to the hype.

He is such a perplexing player to me, which I think contributes to his intrigue. Coming out of college, he was billed as being a completely different player and I don't know what happened to change all of that. In that regard, he's something like Victor Oladipo who was suppose to be a defensive specialist (he's aversge-ish now) and was suppose to have difficulties scoring (blossomed this year). In spite of the mounting evidence to the contrary, part of me still wants to gambld on Wiggins returning a bit toward his roots in a new environment.

NardDogNation
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2/1/2018  8:37 PM
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:wiggins is not that good. he is a young carmelo.

That's an insult to young Melo.

NardDogNation
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2/1/2018  8:59 PM
TripleThreat wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:So even if we were able to offload Noah in the process (and took back more salary instead), that wouldn't be enough?


The Timberwolves are one of the few teams talent wise and defense wise are seen as somewhat possible to slow down the Warriors.

79 out of a possible 105 playoff games were played last postseason. That's A LOT of revenue left on the table because top heavy teams like the Warriors and Cavs were curb stomping everyone. The networks were FURIOUS about it. They pay big dollars to see the profitable "narrative" not straight out massacres of dramatically less talented teams by stacked teams.

Making one of the few teams that MIGHT, maybe one day, slow down the Warriors enough to just not get swept makes no sense for the league

Also, this trade makes no sense of Minnesota. It's so lopsided in favor of the Knicks, it would be vetoed because the only reasonable explanation is collusion of some kind. This isn't just standard trade rape, this is prison shower by 15 guys working a conga line kind of trade rape. It's basically asking anyone who works for the Timberwolves front office to stop feeding their children.

What's even more bizarre are guys in this thread saying "No, no, we don't want Wiggins at all, even at that price" Which is baffling. Maybe he's a long shot at this point, but given how the NBA operates and talent scarcity, you take that shot.

IF , and it's a huge IF, Wiggins were to be traded, the Raptors would make a huge play and the league administration would PUSH the TWolves to trade him up to Canada. The league administration would go so far as to incentivize Minnesota to do it in some way.

Minnesota actually needs to dump Gorgui Dieng. They need more wings, not pivots. Why would they trade to equalize their wing situation numbers wise, degrade talent wise, then add in another pivot with a huge contract? If and when Noah gets bought out, the T Wolves can just get him for the vets minimum.

Any trade presented

1) Must pass The Mirror Test
2) Has to be the best overall option for a trade out of ALL 29 OTHER TEAMS and their offers
3) Must be defensible to the non Knicks team fanbase, ownership, sports media, the league administration and the networks

Sometimes nutty trades happen. We all saw this with Brian Cashman and old man Steinbrenner. Cashman would try to do X and Y, and then the old man would want to pay a middle reliever a 25 million dollar contract back when that wasn't the marketplace norm. But fundamentally you can't expect the non Knicks team to work against their own best interests in a trade.

That's the thing, I do believe this passes the Mirror Test (at least the revised version). They don't care about draft considerations as much but desperately need cap flexibility moving forward. That being the case, I'd substituted the pick swap for Gorgui's Dieng contract and us giving up CHIs 2018 second round pick instead.

The $15 million per year they'd save would allow them to accomodate Jimmy Butler's and KAT's impending contract extensions without having to worry about the luxury tax. That also allows them to utilize the full mid-level exception to continue to augment the team as they see fit. And all things considered, the numbers point to Hardaway Jr. being an improvement in terms of production in the immediate. He doesn't have the "wow" factor that Wiggins may have but with the Wolves finally in the top half of the playoff race, do they really need "wow" anymore? The winning should sell the tickets.

So improved production at Wiggins' spot, $15 million of cap flexibility and a pick to add a more polished rookie in the second round (with no requirement for a long-term commitment) doesn't trump having Wiggins' "wow"-factor?

NardDogNation
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2/1/2018  9:42 PM
VCoug wrote:It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.

Send him to Phoenix. Wiggins doesn't offer much value on the court but he is no doubt an exciting player that can help a franchise struggling with attendance.

I don't think you're a Josh Jackson believer/fan but I am. For whatever reason, they haven't been playing him regularly. At least Wiggins demands court time, so I could see a deal happening with those two as the centerpieces. To make it work, I'd also be willing to take back Brandon Knight's dead money and Tyson Chandler's expirer.

Both team's would break even as far as cost goes this year but we'd save a bunch of money by year 2 of the deal. Tyson Chandler's $13.6 million contract will be off the books by 2019-2020 and we'd also save an additional $18.2 million from having sent THJr to MIN. When you also factor in that Brandon Knight's contract is about $4.1 million cheaper than Noah over the same length of time, we would have freed ourselves of about $36 million total, per year moving forward. That, plus the ability to develop the no.4 pick in the 2017 draft is worth the investment to me.

VCoug
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2/1/2018  9:57 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
VCoug wrote:It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.

Send him to Phoenix. Wiggins doesn't offer much value on the court but he is no doubt an exciting player that can help a franchise struggling with attendance.

I don't think you're a Josh Jackson believer/fan but I am. For whatever reason, they haven't been playing him regularly. At least Wiggins demands court time, so I could see a deal happening with those two as the centerpieces. To make it work, I'd also be willing to take back Brandon Knight's dead money and Tyson Chandler's expirer.

Both team's would break even as far as cost goes this year but we'd save a bunch of money by year 2 of the deal. Tyson Chandler's $13.6 million contract will be off the books by 2019-2020 and we'd also save an additional $18.2 million from having sent THJr to MIN. When you also factor in that Brandon Knight's contract is about $4.1 million cheaper than Noah over the same length of time, we would have freed ourselves of about $36 million total, per year moving forward. That, plus the ability to develop the no.4 pick in the 2017 draft is worth the investment to me.

I am a big fan of Josh Jackson, I just didn't agree with a certain person who said we should trade KP straight up to draft him. If swapping 1st round picks with Minnesota eventually led us to getting Josh Jackson without having to give up any other assets I'm all for it. Josh Jackson has been terrible this year but he's a rookie and still young.

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BigDaddyG
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2/1/2018  10:03 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
VCoug wrote:It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.

Send him to Phoenix. Wiggins doesn't offer much value on the court but he is no doubt an exciting player that can help a franchise struggling with attendance.

I don't think you're a Josh Jackson believer/fan but I am. For whatever reason, they haven't been playing him regularly. At least Wiggins demands court time, so I could see a deal happening with those two as the centerpieces. To make it work, I'd also be willing to take back Brandon Knight's dead money and Tyson Chandler's expirer.

Both team's would break even as far as cost goes this year but we'd save a bunch of money by year 2 of the deal. Tyson Chandler's $13.6 million contract will be off the books by 2019-2020 and we'd also save an additional $18.2 million from having sent THJr to MIN. When you also factor in that Brandon Knight's contract is about $4.1 million cheaper than Noah over the same length of time, we would have freed ourselves of about $36 million total, per year moving forward. That, plus the ability to develop the no.4 pick in the 2017 draft is worth the investment to me.

What do you think about a package for Kelly Oubre. Wizards are capped out and desperate for relief. Gortat is likely gone after the season and Willy would be attractive to them. They're in win now mode and might consider Lee. There's only so much that can do with Kelly after the Porter signing.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
NardDogNation
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2/2/2018  11:00 AM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
VCoug wrote:It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.

Send him to Phoenix. Wiggins doesn't offer much value on the court but he is no doubt an exciting player that can help a franchise struggling with attendance.

I don't think you're a Josh Jackson believer/fan but I am. For whatever reason, they haven't been playing him regularly. At least Wiggins demands court time, so I could see a deal happening with those two as the centerpieces. To make it work, I'd also be willing to take back Brandon Knight's dead money and Tyson Chandler's expirer.

Both team's would break even as far as cost goes this year but we'd save a bunch of money by year 2 of the deal. Tyson Chandler's $13.6 million contract will be off the books by 2019-2020 and we'd also save an additional $18.2 million from having sent THJr to MIN. When you also factor in that Brandon Knight's contract is about $4.1 million cheaper than Noah over the same length of time, we would have freed ourselves of about $36 million total, per year moving forward. That, plus the ability to develop the no.4 pick in the 2017 draft is worth the investment to me.

What do you think about a package for Kelly Oubre. Wizards are capped out and desperate for relief. Gortat is likely gone after the season and Willy would be attractive to them. They're in win now mode and might consider Lee. There's only so much that can do with Kelly after the Porter signing.

I like Oubre and I know the Wizards won't be able to afford him moving forward, which we can leverage against them. My only issue with Oubre is his off-court interests as a model/fashionista type. It seems to be something of a passion, which makes me concerned about his long-term potential in the league.

Guys that have "side-hustles" like that, routinely short-charge themselves in the long run. You can tolerate it if it's a star (like Shaq, Damian Lillard, etc.) since their 70% is better than everyone else's best. But when it's coming from someone that projects as a role-player, it never seems to work out well.

Just look at Iman Shumpert. He had all the athletic-ability in the world and some skill, and never improved. He still has the same issues he's had from his rookie season (turnover machine with the ball in his hands due to poor-decision making and weak dribble; good man defender and can get into the lanes but **** at every other facet of defense). But that hasn't stopped him from pushing a rap "career" that won't go anywhere and indulging the superificiality of "celebrity" status. Right now, he's dead-weight to the Cavs and isn't even 30 years old. He might be in danger of becoming a China candidate because I doubt anyone bothers to make a multi-year commitment to him again.

Now take those issues and add the NYC-factor to it, which is a fertile ground to indulge leisures especially when you have the "New York Knick" title as access. We might see Oubre more often at Fashion Week than the court. This is all speculation of course but I'd be hesistant to give up value like Hernangomez because of it. If I pursued him, I'd try to structure the deal as a contract-dump where the Wizards got flexibility by offloading short-term, useless contracts like Jason Smith.

NardDogNation
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2/2/2018  11:22 AM    LAST EDITED: 2/2/2018  1:51 PM
VCoug wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
VCoug wrote:It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.

Send him to Phoenix. Wiggins doesn't offer much value on the court but he is no doubt an exciting player that can help a franchise struggling with attendance.

I don't think you're a Josh Jackson believer/fan but I am. For whatever reason, they haven't been playing him regularly. At least Wiggins demands court time, so I could see a deal happening with those two as the centerpieces. To make it work, I'd also be willing to take back Brandon Knight's dead money and Tyson Chandler's expirer.

Both team's would break even as far as cost goes this year but we'd save a bunch of money by year 2 of the deal. Tyson Chandler's $13.6 million contract will be off the books by 2019-2020 and we'd also save an additional $18.2 million from having sent THJr to MIN. When you also factor in that Brandon Knight's contract is about $4.1 million cheaper than Noah over the same length of time, we would have freed ourselves of about $36 million total, per year moving forward. That, plus the ability to develop the no.4 pick in the 2017 draft is worth the investment to me.

I am a big fan of Josh Jackson, I just didn't agree with a certain person who said we should trade KP straight up to draft him. If swapping 1st round picks with Minnesota eventually led us to getting Josh Jackson without having to give up any other assets I'm all for it. Josh Jackson has been terrible this year but he's a rookie and still young.

LOL, I think I know who that "certain" someone is. But I can't judge because I'm starting to get trade proposal happy myself.

What I was thinking though is to try and structure a 3-team deal (MIN-PHO-NYK) to get it to work this offseason, when the salaries raises come into effect:

NYK Trades: Tim Hardaway Jr., Joakim Noah, CHI '18 second round pick and cash
NYK Recieves: Brandon Knight, Gorgui Dieng, Cole Aldrich, Tyson Chandler and Josh Jackson (increases payroll by $15 million)

MIN Trades: Andrew Wiggins, Gorgui Dieng and Cole Aldrich
MIN Recieves: Tim Hardaway Jr., Joakim Noah, CHI '18 second round pick and $5M cash (via NYK) [decreases payroll by $15 million)

PHO Trades: Brandon Knight, Tyson Chandler and Josh Jackson
PHO Recieves: Andrew Wiggins

To surmise, the Suns consolidate dead money into Andrew Wiggins while maintaining cap space for that offseason. It makes them more exciting, which might be important if Sarver is truly looking to sell.

The Wolves do the deal because they get a more productive player in THJr to replace Wiggins, who still has youth (25 years old). They also save $15 million, to help them avoid the luxury tax, which is no small feat since most teams don't have cap space. They also get the Bulls' second rounder that has the potential to produce a rotation player without any long-term guarantees. And if there is any team in the league that might see Joakim Noah as useful, it is the Tom Thibdeou coached and run Wolves.

We take a financial hit our first season of the trade but both Aldrich and Chandler are expirers. We'd be stuck with Knight long-term but he has been known as a "culture guy" and is $4.1 million cheaper per year than Noah. He doesn't hurt us as a 3rd string player.

And while Gorgui Dieng is a long-term commitment and redundant, he is moveable, IMO. We won't get off of most of his money but I think a capped out team like the Bucks would have interest. As I suggested before Delladova and Teletovic works financially. It would increase our payroll another $6 million in the immediate but Teletovic's $10M/yr expirers a year earlier than Dieng and in all likelihood, Teletovic will be forced into medical retirement well before that even happens. So essentially we'd be trading for Delly, who could be serviceable as a bench player.

BigDaddyG
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2/2/2018  2:29 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
VCoug wrote:It's an interesting thought. I don't like Wiggins at all and I definitely don't want to give up a 1st even in a swap. But I wonder what Wiggins' value around the league is? If I were a GM and thought I could get back a nice package for flipping Wiggins somewhere else I'd seriously consider this.

Send him to Phoenix. Wiggins doesn't offer much value on the court but he is no doubt an exciting player that can help a franchise struggling with attendance.

I don't think you're a Josh Jackson believer/fan but I am. For whatever reason, they haven't been playing him regularly. At least Wiggins demands court time, so I could see a deal happening with those two as the centerpieces. To make it work, I'd also be willing to take back Brandon Knight's dead money and Tyson Chandler's expirer.

Both team's would break even as far as cost goes this year but we'd save a bunch of money by year 2 of the deal. Tyson Chandler's $13.6 million contract will be off the books by 2019-2020 and we'd also save an additional $18.2 million from having sent THJr to MIN. When you also factor in that Brandon Knight's contract is about $4.1 million cheaper than Noah over the same length of time, we would have freed ourselves of about $36 million total, per year moving forward. That, plus the ability to develop the no.4 pick in the 2017 draft is worth the investment to me.

What do you think about a package for Kelly Oubre. Wizards are capped out and desperate for relief. Gortat is likely gone after the season and Willy would be attractive to them. They're in win now mode and might consider Lee. There's only so much that can do with Kelly after the Porter signing.

I like Oubre and I know the Wizards won't be able to afford him moving forward, which we can leverage against them. My only issue with Oubre is his off-court interests as a model/fashionista type. It seems to be something of a passion, which makes me concerned about his long-term potential in the league.

Guys that have "side-hustles" like that, routinely short-charge themselves in the long run. You can tolerate it if it's a star (like Shaq, Damian Lillard, etc.) since their 70% is better than everyone else's best. But when it's coming from someone that projects as a role-player, it never seems to work out well.

Just look at Iman Shumpert. He had all the athletic-ability in the world and some skill, and never improved. He still has the same issues he's had from his rookie season (turnover machine with the ball in his hands due to poor-decision making and weak dribble; good man defender and can get into the lanes but **** at every other facet of defense). But that hasn't stopped him from pushing a rap "career" that won't go anywhere and indulging the superificiality of "celebrity" status. Right now, he's dead-weight to the Cavs and isn't even 30 years old. He might be in danger of becoming a China candidate because I doubt anyone bothers to make a multi-year commitment to him again.

Now take those issues and add the NYC-factor to it, which is a fertile ground to indulge leisures especially when you have the "New York Knick" title as access. We might see Oubre more often at Fashion Week than the court. This is all speculation of course but I'd be hesistant to give up value like Hernangomez because of it. If I pursued him, I'd try to structure the deal as a contract-dump where the Wizards got flexibility by offloading short-term, useless contracts like Jason Smith.

I agree about Kelly having too many outside influences. The thing with him is that he has maintained a level of improvement since he was drafted. He had the sophomore slump, but then he showed out in the playoffs. Then he went another level this year. Wiggins, who has more natural talent, has basically flat-lined developmentally.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
Would You Do Hardaway Jr. And Assets For Andrew Wiggins?

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