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Hornacek Has To Help Frank More
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SupremeCommander
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1/29/2018  1:38 PM
Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

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nixluva
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1/29/2018  2:43 PM
Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

HofstraBBall
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1/29/2018  4:53 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/29/2018  5:13 PM
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Why would Jeff open the floor for Frank? Thought he was a defensive player? You want a guy who hates the offensive spotlight to be more on blast> Think your also taking Burkes sets from when he had the hot hand and it made sense to showcase him. Did I miss a game when Frank was that hot?

Agree about facts. Here are some rookie facts:
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-rookie-stat-leaders.shtml

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
Cartman718
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1/29/2018  5:04 PM
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

lol you are stupid. Frank getting a clear out would be the worst option on any play given his terrible shooting

Nixluva is posting triangle screen grabs, even when nobody asks - Fishmike. LOL So are we going to reference that thread like the bible now? "The thread of Wroten Page 14 post 9" - EnySpree
newyorknewyork
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1/29/2018  5:17 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Why would Jeff open the floor for Frank? Thought he was a defensive player? Think your also taking Burkes sets form when he was on fire and made sense to showcase him.

Agree about facts. Here are some rookie facts:
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-rookie-stat-leaders.shtml

To be fair Smith gets 8 more mins per game and a 28% usage compared to Franks 17% usage. 1.3 more ast on 10% more usage. If they held the same usage Frank would average more assist. Smith would be able to produce more point though. Smiths 27 ast% per game for his 28 usage % is pretty good as well. They both get a stl a game while Frank again plays 8 mins less. So again if they played the same mins Frank would average more stls.

Wont argue though that Smith is currently the better player. Which is expected since he was voted to be ROY before the season started.

newyorknewyork
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1/29/2018  5:21 PM
Cartman718 wrote:
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

lol you are stupid. Frank getting a clear out would be the worst option on any play given his terrible shooting

Lol he isnt talking about a clear out iso ala Jordan in a one on one matchup for a bucket. Its a PNR with shooters stationed near the bottom corners 3s. And a pick set at the top of the 3 for maximum spacing for a possible lane. Typical PG play in todays NBA.

HofstraBBall
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1/29/2018  5:23 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Why would Jeff open the floor for Frank? Thought he was a defensive player? Think your also taking Burkes sets form when he was on fire and made sense to showcase him.

Agree about facts. Here are some rookie facts:
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-rookie-stat-leaders.shtml

To be fair Smith gets 8 more mins per game and a 28% usage compared to Franks 17% usage. 1.3 more ast on 10% more usage. If they held the same usage Frank would average more assist. Smith would be able to produce more point though. Smiths 27 ast% per game for his 28 usage % is pretty good as well. They both get a stl a game while Frank again plays 8 mins less. So again if they played the same mins Frank would average more stls.

Wont argue though that Smith is currently the better player. Which is expected since he was voted to be ROY before the season started.

Was not looking to emphasize Smith. Cant even compare Frank to Burke yet. Offensively.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
CrushAlot
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1/29/2018  5:30 PM
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
newyorknewyork
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1/29/2018  5:31 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/29/2018  5:33 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Why would Jeff open the floor for Frank? Thought he was a defensive player? Think your also taking Burkes sets form when he was on fire and made sense to showcase him.

Agree about facts. Here are some rookie facts:
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-rookie-stat-leaders.shtml

To be fair Smith gets 8 more mins per game and a 28% usage compared to Franks 17% usage. 1.3 more ast on 10% more usage. If they held the same usage Frank would average more assist. Smith would be able to produce more point though. Smiths 27 ast% per game for his 28 usage % is pretty good as well. They both get a stl a game while Frank again plays 8 mins less. So again if they played the same mins Frank would average more stls.

Wont argue though that Smith is currently the better player. Which is expected since he was voted to be ROY before the season started.

Was not looking to emphasize Smith. Cant even compare Frank to Burke yet. Offensively.

True

Based on his last few games he owns Smith right now as well lol. He shooting like 60% with less then a 1 TO a game.

newyorknewyork
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1/29/2018  5:46 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.

Our PGs were Jack, Frank and Sessions. Sessions outright lost his starting job and his mins. Frank while he has struggled has also contributed to some wins this season. He would play 5min intervals in the first half which would expand or shrink depending on his play. He would get In late 3rd with the opportunity to get majority 4th quarter mins if he was playing well. With Burke coming on Jeff now has more options.

But I do agree that Frank hasn't made the most of his opportunity. As well as the notion that Jeff should set him up with more top of the key PNR with a spread. Simplest play for the 19 yr old to run when he is out there.

HofstraBBall
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1/29/2018  5:48 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/29/2018  5:49 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Why would Jeff open the floor for Frank? Thought he was a defensive player? Think your also taking Burkes sets form when he was on fire and made sense to showcase him.

Agree about facts. Here are some rookie facts:
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-rookie-stat-leaders.shtml

To be fair Smith gets 8 more mins per game and a 28% usage compared to Franks 17% usage. 1.3 more ast on 10% more usage. If they held the same usage Frank would average more assist. Smith would be able to produce more point though. Smiths 27 ast% per game for his 28 usage % is pretty good as well. They both get a stl a game while Frank again plays 8 mins less. So again if they played the same mins Frank would average more stls.

Wont argue though that Smith is currently the better player. Which is expected since he was voted to be ROY before the season started.

Was not looking to emphasize Smith. Cant even compare Frank to Burke yet. Offensively.

True

Based on his last few games he owns Smith right now as well lol. He shooting like 60% with less then a 1 TO a game.

Yeah. He has been a pleasant surprise. Good for him. Long road coming to a possible nice ending. Still think we need to give Frank the starting job after the break, if we sold some of our vets. Think Jack may be one of them as some are looking for an experienced back up. Then we can have Frank taking most of the minutes and Burke backing up.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
EnySpree
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1/29/2018  5:52 PM
fwk00 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:
nixluva wrote:
EnySpree wrote:It's because Frank can't and won't score. If Frank wants to get better, he has to put in the extra work. It's his career. I see the picture you're painting Nix.... but regardless how you want a difference, there's still opportunotes Frank gets as a point guard that Frank just screws up. He just won't shoot only if he's completely wide open

I'm suggesting that Jeff can CLEARLY make it easier for Frank by simplifying things. Those sets call for Frank to have to pause and wait for his teammates to go into motion, set screens and there's no clear lanes because of that.

Burke got a lot more clearout type plays where there was no one else close except for the screener. that means the Help is far away and there's a HUGE WIDE OPEN SPACE for the guard to attack and not face a defender right away. I can't make it anymore clear by the stills to show you the HUGE GAPS that Jeff created with the spacing on those sets Trey had versus the typical play Frank gets where he's asked to try and make it work with less space and more Off Ball Motion from his teammates. The plays are NOT THE SAME!!!

No I get the plays... but regardless of plays Frank just doesn't have it in him to shoot it. When the play doesn't work he's dead. He can't create anything outside of a set play. So back to the frames you posted, because Frank won't shoot it he's still not going to be effective even if he's "given" more space.

Guys like to say "so now were going to give up on a 19 year old?" No.... the kid has to grow. He's being given all the opportunities he deserves. He's not ready yet. He's just got to work. That's not on the coaches cuz Hornacek could get fired any day now. Nothing is secure even it comes to coaching. Frank all had to take control of his own career... that's why guys end up getting traded as stuff. People develop differently

People may develop differently but NBA PGs have a pattern of development that is fairly predictable and that is that they take 3-5 years to be dependable, confident floor leaders.

It is zero surprise that Burke looks better than Frankie *right now*. But maturity aside, nixluva's observations are well-noted. My guess is that JH, rather than messing with the kid, may be constraining his options for whatever reason whereas Burke who has played with THJ AND has a college track record may be getting offensive sets that emphasize his comfort zone.

No matter how the floor is set on offense, Frankie has a few years to go before absorbing it all in, owning it, and making it second nature. He'll get there.

What I find most disturbing about a lot of the recent narratives, Szczerbiak included, is this phony manufactured urgency to win-win-win. I, like every Knick fan, would love to see the Knicks make the playoffs. But not at the expense of discarding our youth for instant and fleeting gratification.

I don't believe Hornacek is on a hot seat nor do I believe that if he were on one he would have much control over it. This is a fair to midling NBA franchise flirting with playoff mediocrity at best. Hornacek is obviously doing his best with what he's got. No combination of mid-season win-now trades is going to dramatically change that position NOR do anything but derail the maturation of what is a decent future core.

It is typical Knickdom insanity to suggest the trading of Frank. The physical tools this guy brings to the table and the instinct he's shown are rare as hen's teeth. To hear, "he's too..." and "not a..." at age 19 is just like listening to crack addicts - crazy, out-of-control expectations that have no place in an intelligent conversation.

Burke is a real find. There's room for three at PG without cut-throat innuendo.

As a team the problem the Knicks have is too much average redundancy. At every position there is very little difference in talent - Porzingis the exception. If the Knicks make a move they need to sell high and bring back youth rather than getting mired in yet more mediocrity chasing a playoff spot - this is the NBA's purgatory.

With some important players dropping like flies it will be interesting to see which teams throw in the towel to tank and which look to reload before the trade deadline.

Why does demoting Frank have to do with urgency to win?

Frank hit the rookie wall and needs to work on his game. The NBA is not a place to keep guys in the line up just because you think they will be good in 3-5 years. If guys deserve to play or start then tge should. They shouldn't be disregarded just because of one player. The chance to make the playoffs shouldn't take a back seat just to give one player minutes he doesn't deserve yet.

Why is that taboo amongst knick fans nowadays?

We play to win... not play to give certain guys minutes. That thinking is why tge made a g league and why it's necessary. Frank having inflated stats for a few weeks is exactly what he needs. Boost his confidence. Allow him to experiment a while without tampering with the goals of the big club.

Kristaps wants to make the playoffs. Alot of his teammates do too. That's easy Moore important than giving a 19 year old undeserved minutes

You know why I'm here....
martin
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1/29/2018  5:53 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but is it so easy as putting a guy in the G league for a few game or weeks or a few months and presto he's a different player? How long was THJr in the DLeague?

Tons of examples of guys putting up big numbers in the G league and then doing nothing in the NBA.

What are the pluses and minuses of staying in NBA versus going to G League? No one is doing a cost benefit of this, just send him to the G League.

What about what he would be MISSING in the NBA? Is he not learning on a nightly basis? Is he regressing or just has hit a bit of a slump/wall?

Does the G league coaching staff have MORE time or less time to work with individual players than their NBA counterparts?

What weight/nutrition/practice regimen does the G League team have over the NBA team? How often does the G League team practice versus travel?

Anyone who is a proponent of sending Frank to the G League have any guess on the above? Also, please mention some other players who have gone the same path as the one you are suggesting Frank take and how long they were in the G league.

How many games/weeks of games are you suggesting?

G league may run the same offense and defense but you have a whole new set of players and their individual nuances to consider, so it's not just plug and play.

There is no magic potion here.

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newyorknewyork
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1/29/2018  6:11 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Why would Jeff open the floor for Frank? Thought he was a defensive player? Think your also taking Burkes sets form when he was on fire and made sense to showcase him.

Agree about facts. Here are some rookie facts:
http://www.insidehoops.com/nba-rookie-stat-leaders.shtml

To be fair Smith gets 8 more mins per game and a 28% usage compared to Franks 17% usage. 1.3 more ast on 10% more usage. If they held the same usage Frank would average more assist. Smith would be able to produce more point though. Smiths 27 ast% per game for his 28 usage % is pretty good as well. They both get a stl a game while Frank again plays 8 mins less. So again if they played the same mins Frank would average more stls.

Wont argue though that Smith is currently the better player. Which is expected since he was voted to be ROY before the season started.

Was not looking to emphasize Smith. Cant even compare Frank to Burke yet. Offensively.

True

Based on his last few games he owns Smith right now as well lol. He shooting like 60% with less then a 1 TO a game.

Yeah. He has been a pleasant surprise. Good for him. Long road coming to a possible nice ending. Still think we need to give Frank the starting job after the break, if we sold some of our vets. Think Jack may be one of them as some are looking for an experienced back up. Then we can have Frank taking most of the minutes and Burke backing up.

That's the dilemma, if Burke is outplaying Frank then you have to start him over him. While long term it would be ideal for Frank to be a complete 2 way floor general while Burke is an offensive explosion off the bench. We may not have to force it this season. Frank needs to earn it and beat out Burke by showing he can lead the team to wins.

But the premise of the thread is an interesting concept. As we all want Frank to be more aggressive. So the idea that I believe Nix is trying to bring up is to put him in more attacking situations forcing him to do so. Putting him in the sets that Jeff has currently been putting him in only has made him more passive. He isn't confident and I don't believe has the handle at the moment to weave through traffic in the sets that he currently plays in.

But to Jeffs dilemma, he has vets that can put the ball in the hole. So he would have to limit their touches to feed and try to develop Frank. They may not be willing to do all that until they are eliminated from playoff contention.

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1/29/2018  6:19 PM
nixluva wrote:Ok if guys are gonna just IGNORE the visual evidence and not acknowledge the CLEAR DIFFERENCE in sets then there’s no point to ever posting FACTS.

The Majority Of Frank’s sets are NOT clearout type sets designed to create maximum space. Most of his sets are motion sets that require him to wait as they develop. They are not designed for Frank to have MAX space to attack after the screen is set.

Jeff is calling those plays! Jeff decided to OPEN the floor when Burke was playing going with Early Spread PnR. Not slow developing Weaves or any other actions where the other players are bringing their defenders into the PG’s Space. Think about it how often do you remember Frank getting a clear out so he could be the primary option? I invite everyone to look at the plays I posted again and note the INTENTION of each play Burke had vs Frank’s typical plays. TOTALLY DIFFERENT.


I think the spacing issue has a little to do with Burke's size issues as well. He needs more space to utilize his speed to get off his passes. He can't get off the same passes as Frank and Jack in tighter spaces. To Burke's credit, and I'm still not sold, he's done a good job of creating those lanes with the dribble.
Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
HofstraBBall
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1/29/2018  6:22 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but is it so easy as putting a guy in the G league for a few game or weeks or a few months and presto he's a different player? How long was THJr in the DLeague?

Tons of examples of guys putting up big numbers in the G league and then doing nothing in the NBA.

What are the pluses and minuses of staying in NBA versus going to G League? No one is doing a cost benefit of this, just send him to the G League.

What about what he would be MISSING in the NBA? Is he not learning on a nightly basis? Is he regressing or just has hit a bit of a slump/wall?

Does the G league coaching staff have MORE time or less time to work with individual players than their NBA counterparts?

What weight/nutrition/practice regimen does the G League team have over the NBA team? How often does the G League team practice versus travel?

Anyone who is a proponent of sending Frank to the G League have any guess on the above? Also, please mention some other players who have gone the same path as the one you are suggesting Frank take and how long they were in the G league.

How many games/weeks of games are you suggesting?

G league may run the same offense and defense but you have a whole new set of players and their individual nuances to consider, so it's not just plug and play.

There is no magic potion here.

Dont think this will ever happen. G League is more for guys that have not made it to the NBA or players that are not getting any playing time. Frank has and will have plenty of opportunities to get playing time as we dont have 2 or 3 Vets in front of him. I have been pretty tough on us picking Frank over Smith and Mitchell but think he is definately capable of developing at the NBA level.

His biggest issues are clearly his confidence with his shot and when to create his own offense. Cant speak for Crush, but maybe that is what he meant. That perhaps the G league is a good place for him to focus on his own offense. But agree that there is no formula for developing young players that has been proven to work for all. And that going to the G league does not guarantee that he will become more aggressive on offense.

Think the last part of the season will create abetter enviroment for him to focus on his offense. Specailly if we are clearly out of the play offs and JH is playing the younger players more.

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BigDaddyG
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1/29/2018  6:33 PM
martin wrote:G league may run the same offense and defense but you have a whole new set of players and their individual nuances to consider, so it's not just plug and play.

There is no magic potion here.

This is my main concern. I could care less about scoring in the G-League. To me, the offensive environment is no different than the Chinese league. I can't imagine the scouting, development, training etc. are anywhere close. People bring up Dotson, but have we seen anything to suggest the G-League has helped? Yeah, from a minutes standpoint, but there's no way anyone here can tell how that's translated to the big club. People bring up THJ, but that's also comparing apples to oranges. THJ was on a contending team with vets cemented ahead of him. There was no way to develop and integrate him at level Atlanta was playing.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
CrushAlot
Posts: 57069
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1/29/2018  7:14 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but is it so easy as putting a guy in the G league for a few game or weeks or a few months and presto he's a different player? How long was THJr in the DLeague?

Tons of examples of guys putting up big numbers in the G league and then doing nothing in the NBA.

What are the pluses and minuses of staying in NBA versus going to G League? No one is doing a cost benefit of this, just send him to the G League.

What about what he would be MISSING in the NBA? Is he not learning on a nightly basis? Is he regressing or just has hit a bit of a slump/wall?

Does the G league coaching staff have MORE time or less time to work with individual players than their NBA counterparts?

What weight/nutrition/practice regimen does the G League team have over the NBA team? How often does the G League team practice versus travel?

Anyone who is a proponent of sending Frank to the G League have any guess on the above? Also, please mention some other players who have gone the same path as the one you are suggesting Frank take and how long they were in the G league.

How many games/weeks of games are you suggesting?

G league may run the same offense and defense but you have a whole new set of players and their individual nuances to consider, so it's not just plug and play.

There is no magic potion here.

I don't know if he will get minutes if he stays on the big team. Also, he has been struggling against nba second units. I think length of time would depend on his progress. The Knicks have done a lot to help him have success. Bringing Jack in was a great move. Jack's rep is that he is a great guy for young players to be around even if he is just on the bench. I think Jack would have been fine stepping aside for Frank or giving up some more minutes to him. At this point in the season there is not a lot of practice time. If Frank isn't getting on the court I am not sure why you would think it would be bad for his development to spend time in the g league. Are there on court benefits to his sitting on the bench because he is in the nba?
In regards to guys that went down and came back up Hardaway is the first that comes to mind and also Burke. The Hawks use their g/d league team to develop players. Muscala has gone back and forth. But there are also guys like Covington, JaMychal Green etc. that are big time players that spent time in the d league. The Rockets used to use their d league team for development. Recently the Wiz have been doing it with the kid from Syracuse that was a Net and Shelden Mac and their back up point is Tim Frazier. In regards to timelines etc., if you want that I think you should do your own research.
Were you against Dotson getting run in Westchester? I can tell you that I watched the fourth quarter of the W Knicks the other night after he had been recalled and the announcers were talking about how much the team missed having Dotson.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
martin
Posts: 47604
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1/29/2018  7:34 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but is it so easy as putting a guy in the G league for a few game or weeks or a few months and presto he's a different player? How long was THJr in the DLeague?

Tons of examples of guys putting up big numbers in the G league and then doing nothing in the NBA.

What are the pluses and minuses of staying in NBA versus going to G League? No one is doing a cost benefit of this, just send him to the G League.

What about what he would be MISSING in the NBA? Is he not learning on a nightly basis? Is he regressing or just has hit a bit of a slump/wall?

Does the G league coaching staff have MORE time or less time to work with individual players than their NBA counterparts?

What weight/nutrition/practice regimen does the G League team have over the NBA team? How often does the G League team practice versus travel?

Anyone who is a proponent of sending Frank to the G League have any guess on the above? Also, please mention some other players who have gone the same path as the one you are suggesting Frank take and how long they were in the G league.

How many games/weeks of games are you suggesting?

G league may run the same offense and defense but you have a whole new set of players and their individual nuances to consider, so it's not just plug and play.

There is no magic potion here.

I don't know if he will get minutes if he stays on the big team. Also, he has been struggling against nba second units. I think length of time would depend on his progress. The Knicks have done a lot to help him have success. Bringing Jack in was a great move. Jack's rep is that he is a great guy for young players to be around even if he is just on the bench. I think Jack would have been fine stepping aside for Frank or giving up some more minutes to him. At this point in the season there is not a lot of practice time. If Frank isn't getting on the court I am not sure why you would think it would be bad for his development to spend time in the g league. Are there on court benefits to his sitting on the bench because he is in the nba?
In regards to guys that went down and came back up Hardaway is the first that comes to mind and also Burke. The Hawks use their g/d league team to develop players. Muscala has gone back and forth. But there are also guys like Covington, JaMychal Green etc. that are big time players that spent time in the d league. The Rockets used to use their d league team for development. Recently the Wiz have been doing it with the kid from Syracuse that was a Net and Shelden Mac and their back up point is Tim Frazier. In regards to timelines etc., if you want that I think you should do your own research.
Were you against Dotson getting run in Westchester? I can tell you that I watched the fourth quarter of the W Knicks the other night after he had been recalled and the announcers were talking about how much the team missed having Dotson.

How can you start a post with "I don't know if he will get minutes if he stays on the big team." Frank is averaging 20 minutes a game. He is ALREADY getting minutes on the big team.

Your whole premise of Frank going to the G League is predicated on Frank NOT getting minutes in the NBA.

Willy hasn't gotten minutes all year and yet no G League.

When NBA Players can not get run in the big league, then it's a VERY good thing to get them run in G League.

Which players in the NBA who were given a change to get regular minutes went to the G League?

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CrushAlot
Posts: 57069
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/25/2003
Member: #452
USA
1/29/2018  8:00 PM
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
SupremeCommander wrote:Frank is a project. I think Horny has went above and beyond by sticking with him this long. He's hit the dreaded rookie wall. While he played against men last year, he also barely played. Send him to the G League, let him work on his game, and pump up his confidence. The entire organization should be thinking about next year now and letting him work on his game and build his confidence would really help the team next year and beyond

Frank's play cratering is on Frank

I agree. Frank has been locked into 20+ minutes a night no matter how he played. The G League used to be the developmental league. Frank needs developing. The coach is supposed to run the same offense as the Knicks. I don't think sending him down would hurt and it might help him improve his game.

I don't mean to pick on you in particular, but is it so easy as putting a guy in the G league for a few game or weeks or a few months and presto he's a different player? How long was THJr in the DLeague?

Tons of examples of guys putting up big numbers in the G league and then doing nothing in the NBA.

What are the pluses and minuses of staying in NBA versus going to G League? No one is doing a cost benefit of this, just send him to the G League.

What about what he would be MISSING in the NBA? Is he not learning on a nightly basis? Is he regressing or just has hit a bit of a slump/wall?

Does the G league coaching staff have MORE time or less time to work with individual players than their NBA counterparts?

What weight/nutrition/practice regimen does the G League team have over the NBA team? How often does the G League team practice versus travel?

Anyone who is a proponent of sending Frank to the G League have any guess on the above? Also, please mention some other players who have gone the same path as the one you are suggesting Frank take and how long they were in the G league.

How many games/weeks of games are you suggesting?

G league may run the same offense and defense but you have a whole new set of players and their individual nuances to consider, so it's not just plug and play.

There is no magic potion here.

I don't know if he will get minutes if he stays on the big team. Also, he has been struggling against nba second units. I think length of time would depend on his progress. The Knicks have done a lot to help him have success. Bringing Jack in was a great move. Jack's rep is that he is a great guy for young players to be around even if he is just on the bench. I think Jack would have been fine stepping aside for Frank or giving up some more minutes to him. At this point in the season there is not a lot of practice time. If Frank isn't getting on the court I am not sure why you would think it would be bad for his development to spend time in the g league. Are there on court benefits to his sitting on the bench because he is in the nba?
In regards to guys that went down and came back up Hardaway is the first that comes to mind and also Burke. The Hawks use their g/d league team to develop players. Muscala has gone back and forth. But there are also guys like Covington, JaMychal Green etc. that are big time players that spent time in the d league. The Rockets used to use their d league team for development. Recently the Wiz have been doing it with the kid from Syracuse that was a Net and Shelden Mac and their back up point is Tim Frazier. In regards to timelines etc., if you want that I think you should do your own research.
Were you against Dotson getting run in Westchester? I can tell you that I watched the fourth quarter of the W Knicks the other night after he had been recalled and the announcers were talking about how much the team missed having Dotson.

How can you start a post with "I don't know if he will get minutes if he stays on the big team." Frank is averaging 20 minutes a game. He is ALREADY getting minutes on the big team.

Your whole premise of Frank going to the G League is predicated on Frank NOT getting minutes in the NBA.

Willy hasn't gotten minutes all year and yet no G League.

When NBA Players can not get run in the big league, then it's a VERY good thing to get them run in G League.

Which players in the NBA who were given a change to get regular minutes went to the G League?

Because his minutes have decreased since Burke became a part of the rotation 5 games ago. He is averaging 14 minutes a game since Burke became part of the rotation. He was up around 25 minutes for a big part of December. I guess a better question might be, do you think Burke's minutes are going to increase? In regards to your question two of those guys are on the Knicks. Not sure what the right move for Frank is but I don't think the d league should be off the table as an option for him to improve. Willy is a pretty unique case. He is the best friend of the best player on the team. Begley said he thought KP would leave if Willy was traded back in October on a podcast. Also, the Knicks maybe looking to trade him. Frank is a part of the long term plans. Willy might not be. The goal is development. Not sure that anything should be off the table with a 19 year old that is struggling if you are thinking he is a part of your team for the next 10 years.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
Hornacek Has To Help Frank More

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