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I know Ntilikina is only 19 but...
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Nalod
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1/25/2018  3:52 PM
fishmike wrote:
BigDaddyG wrote:
blkexec wrote:
nixluva wrote:
TLover wrote:As Clyde said he needs to work on his handle, which is troubling bc a point guard’s handling has to come at a young age. Frank needs to keep developing that jumper and be a defensive force. Hopefully the facilitator of the team is a point forward like Docic.

You have to be aware of Progress. Frank has come a LONG way from where he was just last year when it comes to his handles. This is just one of those things that fans have to adjust to. Frank has been improving but since he's still in need of development some don't realize how much better he is already. Frank was a raw offensive player but had natural passing and defensive ability. The Knicks knew this when they drafted him. He's made progress from the start of the year to now and will continue to get better IMO.

If I remember right....Frank was not a full time PG on his team. So it makes since that he needs to improve is handles. But Frank is a Spurs type pick.....Good character and high basketball IQ. Now it's up to him and knick coaching staff to expand his skill set. Thats the part that troubles me.....NY is not the best place to develop young players. Which is why I thought a more confident established rookie player would be better to come in and impact right away. but we thought KP wasn't ready....so I'm willing to give Frank his time to develop. Time to focus on building a team around the young core. I'm curious to see how he looks with the other rookies and sophmores.


I usually rank the ability to contribute immediately third or fourth in my criteria for drafting rookies. I rank potential, work ethic and mental toughness. It's hard to rank a rookies ability to contribute right away when he's playing inferior competition. Even when it's a junior or senior. How many times have we seen teams get suckered into drafting guys like Jordan Hill, Doug McDermott, Frank Kaminsky etc. with the idea that they can step in and contribute right away?Don't get me wrong, I realize there are many players who do step in and make an immediate impact. It's just hard to spot them.
depends on where you draft. I agree I would never use NBA readiness as a factor for a lottery pick. You figure if your in the lottery you need high end talent. If it takes time to develop so be it.

Late #1? 2nd round? Thats different. I could 100% use readiness. If I needed a backup PG I might pull the trigger on a lower ceiling guy who can help right away... Frank Mason jr comes to mind. His size most likely renders him a career backup but he's a good shooter and has shown that. He's a great floor general and his upside is core rotation, but most likely a career backup. So I think the biggest factor for NBA readiness is where you draft.

Knicks have a couple good #2s. This is where you find the college seniors 22 years old that scouts have passed on and forgot can actually play. Happens every year

Or deep projects and skinny Euro's not ready to cross the "pond"!

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BigDaddyG
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1/25/2018  4:27 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/25/2018  4:27 PM
fishmike wrote:depends on where you draft. I agree I would never use NBA readiness as a factor for a lottery pick. You figure if your in the lottery you need high end talent. If it takes time to develop so be it.

Late #1? 2nd round? Thats different. I could 100% use readiness. If I needed a backup PG I might pull the trigger on a lower ceiling guy who can help right away... Frank Mason jr comes to mind. His size most likely renders him a career backup but he's a good shooter and has shown that. He's a great floor general and his upside is core rotation, but most likely a career backup. So I think the biggest factor for NBA readiness is where you draft.

Knicks have a couple good #2s. This is where you find the college seniors 22 years old that scouts have passed on and forgot can actually play. Happens every year


True, but the second-round is a toss up. For every Frank Mason, who I liked in the second-rate, there are guys like Cleanthony Early. Then you have a guy like Trevor Ariza, who wasn't ready and developed into a legit NBA starter. I think any strategy works for the late second-round due to the low odds of picking anything useful. The important thing is having a strategy in the first place.
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newyorknewyork
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1/25/2018  4:55 PM

IMO this a flash on what could be Frank's game all day. He more so needs to develop the consistency and willingness to take these pull ups. But they seem to be his most comfortable shots with pretty much perfect form on the set up and release. This is one of the areas(among many)his 6'5 7ft wingspan frame can be molded into a weapon. Can open up the rest of his game. As the scouting report would then force Acy to have to close out harder which gives him more spacing for penetration. And or force the dude guarding Baker to play closer to the rim opening up the corner 3.

knicks1248
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1/25/2018  6:32 PM
newyorknewyork wrote:

IMO this a flash on what could be Frank's game all day. He more so needs to develop the consistency and willingness to take these pull ups. But they seem to be his most comfortable shots with pretty much perfect form on the set up and release. This is one of the areas(among many)his 6'5 7ft wingspan frame can be molded into a weapon. Can open up the rest of his game. As the scouting report would then force Acy to have to close out harder which gives him more spacing for penetration. And or force the dude guarding Baker to play closer to the rim opening up the corner 3.

His shot release is different every shot. Besides that, scoring is not the strength of his game. If we need a pg that can score, penetrate, and dish, thats what we should be focusing on getting, instead of trying to turn Frank into CP3.

That's The Knicks #1 problem, trying to turn players into something they are not

ES
nixluva
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1/25/2018  6:47 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:

IMO this a flash on what could be Frank's game all day. He more so needs to develop the consistency and willingness to take these pull ups. But they seem to be his most comfortable shots with pretty much perfect form on the set up and release. This is one of the areas(among many)his 6'5 7ft wingspan frame can be molded into a weapon. Can open up the rest of his game. As the scouting report would then force Acy to have to close out harder which gives him more spacing for penetration. And or force the dude guarding Baker to play closer to the rim opening up the corner 3.

His shot release is different every shot. Besides that, scoring is not the strength of his game. If we need a pg that can score, penetrate, and dish, thats what we should be focusing on getting, instead of trying to turn Frank into CP3.

That's The Knicks #1 problem, trying to turn players into something they are not

I don’t think you’re right on this one. Frank is already showing he’s a capable passer. The only issue for him is developing his offensive skills and learning how to use them to create even better scoring opportunities for his teammates.

I don’t think you appreciate Frank’s game. Just look at this tweet showing how Frank impacts his teammates versus DSJ.

newyorknewyork
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1/25/2018  7:40 PM
knicks1248 wrote:
newyorknewyork wrote:

IMO this a flash on what could be Frank's game all day. He more so needs to develop the consistency and willingness to take these pull ups. But they seem to be his most comfortable shots with pretty much perfect form on the set up and release. This is one of the areas(among many)his 6'5 7ft wingspan frame can be molded into a weapon. Can open up the rest of his game. As the scouting report would then force Acy to have to close out harder which gives him more spacing for penetration. And or force the dude guarding Baker to play closer to the rim opening up the corner 3.

His shot release is different every shot. Besides that, scoring is not the strength of his game. If we need a pg that can score, penetrate, and dish, thats what we should be focusing on getting, instead of trying to turn Frank into CP3.

That's The Knicks #1 problem, trying to turn players into something they are not

A pull up off the pick doesn't turn you into CP3. Working on a staple to his game offensively is how players develop. Develop a strength offensively that forces teams to adjust which opens up the other parts for easier opportunities. Or should we give up on development for a 19 yr old and out his game in a box and claim he is nothing more than a defensive role player due to what he has shown 45 games in as a 19 yr old rookie.

David Lee when he was a tweener PF who was to weak to bang in the paint and to slow to guard the perimeter. He decided he would make rebounding his nitch to get PT. From rebounding he worked on finishing in the paint. From finishing in the paint he worked on passing out to shooters. From there he worked on hitting mid range jumpers to become a overall threat as he got more usage and was relied on more as a go to offensive player.

But I guess your way you can always complain about the Knicks development process later on.

TLover
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1/25/2018  11:35 PM
Pretty clear tonight that Trey Burke should be the starting point guard and could be the point guard of the future. Tall lanky point guards have a hard time in the nba (Penny, Livingston, Exum) albeit bc of injuries but still haven’t seen one yet be successful in the nba (Magic Johnson was far from lanky) Frank is a secondary ball handler at the 2 guard spot without a consistent jump shot. I like the kid but not sure he’ll live up to the expectations of a #8 pick. Hope I’m wrong.
nixluva
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1/26/2018  1:05 AM
TLover wrote:Pretty clear tonight that Trey Burke should be the starting point guard and could be the point guard of the future. Tall lanky point guards have a hard time in the nba (Penny, Livingston, Exum) albeit bc of injuries but still haven’t seen one yet be successful in the nba (Magic Johnson was far from lanky) Frank is a secondary ball handler at the 2 guard spot without a consistent jump shot. I like the kid but not sure he’ll live up to the expectations of a #8 pick. Hope I’m wrong.

Just keep in mind that Burke is 25!!! He's still trying to prove who he is. I think we got him at perhaps just the right time like THJ. Frank is VERY early in his process of development. You can't put too much weight on how he's looking in his rookie year. NBA PG is a super tough role to master. I expect that Frank is going to fill out quite a bit more from his 19 yr old body.

Knixkik
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1/26/2018  1:31 AM
TLover wrote:Pretty clear tonight that Trey Burke should be the starting point guard and could be the point guard of the future. Tall lanky point guards have a hard time in the nba (Penny, Livingston, Exum) albeit bc of injuries but still haven’t seen one yet be successful in the nba (Magic Johnson was far from lanky) Frank is a secondary ball handler at the 2 guard spot without a consistent jump shot. I like the kid but not sure he’ll live up to the expectations of a #8 pick. Hope I’m wrong.

I disagree. We see the potential in frank. It's just going to take him time to put it together. Burke is an ideal backup, change of pace PG. I see these guys becoming a nice mix at the PG spot hopefully.

SRacide
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1/26/2018  2:06 AM
What annoys me to see Frank say in the interviews that make a beautiful half season ...
Does he really think he is? Is the Staff too kind to him?
Does he understand that Burke just took those minutes?
nixluva
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1/26/2018  2:11 AM
SRacide wrote:What annoys me to see Frank say in the interviews that make a beautiful half season ...
Does he really think he is? Is the Staff too kind to him?
Does he understand that Burke just took those minutes?

You're talking like Frank has to catch up to Burke who is just now getting his act together at 25!!! Frank isn't under any pressure to fully develop all in his rookie year. He's been growing but it's going to take time to put it all together. Let's just allow the kid to develop at his own pace. He's never played this many games at this kind of pace. He's never faced this level of competition.

It's going to take time for him to develop his shooting to the point where he can get off accurate shots at NBA speed. He's still a bit slow in his release. His legs have to get stronger so he can defend at this level but still have strength to shoot and finish. This is a process.

nykshaknbake
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1/26/2018  7:38 AM
nixluva wrote:
SRacide wrote:What annoys me to see Frank say in the interviews that make a beautiful half season ...
Does he really think he is? Is the Staff too kind to him?
Does he understand that Burke just took those minutes?

You're talking like Frank has to catch up to Burke who is just now getting his act together at 25!!! Frank isn't under any pressure to fully develop all in his rookie year. He's been growing but it's going to take time to put it all together. Let's just allow the kid to develop at his own pace. He's never played this many games at this kind of pace. He's never faced this level of competition.

It's going to take time for him to develop his shooting to the point where he can get off accurate shots at NBA speed. He's still a bit slow in his release. His legs have to get stronger so he can defend at this level but still have strength to shoot and finish. This is a process.


If it takes Frank 6 more years to be an NBA player that's a problem. One question though Nix, is there any way that you would say Frank didn't meet expectations next year? Is there any situation that he's only 19 wouldn't excuse? I thought you told us he was actually pretty well prepared going into this season as he was playing professionally with grown men.
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1/26/2018  9:12 AM
Playing Pro A in France is also not a reference ... the matches are horrible.
It turn at 5.2PPG 2.1Assist and 1.4 Rbd in 32 games do not forget it ...
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1/26/2018  9:23 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/26/2018  9:27 AM
nykshaknbake wrote:
nixluva wrote:
SRacide wrote:What annoys me to see Frank say in the interviews that make a beautiful half season ...
Does he really think he is? Is the Staff too kind to him?
Does he understand that Burke just took those minutes?

You're talking like Frank has to catch up to Burke who is just now getting his act together at 25!!! Frank isn't under any pressure to fully develop all in his rookie year. He's been growing but it's going to take time to put it all together. Let's just allow the kid to develop at his own pace. He's never played this many games at this kind of pace. He's never faced this level of competition.

It's going to take time for him to develop his shooting to the point where he can get off accurate shots at NBA speed. He's still a bit slow in his release. His legs have to get stronger so he can defend at this level but still have strength to shoot and finish. This is a process.


If it takes Frank 6 more years to be an NBA player that's a problem. One question though Nix, is there any way that you would say Frank didn't meet expectations next year? Is there any situation that he's only 19 wouldn't excuse? I thought you told us he was actually pretty well prepared going into this season as he was playing professionally with grown men.

This. As for the narrative that some labeled him a "Long Term Project" prior to the draft that is just not true. Most on here were proud to point out that even though he was 19 he has had MORE proffessional experience than anyone in the NCAA and was playing against men. Some of us think that if this kid was such a project, why pick him at 8? As that is how so many teams have wasted high picks in the past drafts.

Nix, we all get that the kid should not be crucified, is still young and has shown very good defensive skills. The thing you keep missing, in this argument, is that we are not arguing any of those statements, yet you can't concede that in retrospect, there were better picks that we could have made that had less risk. With that said, it is still very early, but so far, the other players that were available have shown more and have had better starts. But that does not mean he can't turn it around. We all hope he does.

Btw, True Burke is 25, but that does not change the fact he turned out to be a feasable option at the PG position and did not use up a lottery pick.

fishmike Posts: 48006 Alba Posts: 1 Joined: 7/19/2002 Member: #298 USA 6/23/2016 12:35 PM fishmike worte" The dream? Would be Pg Rose SG GPII SF Durant PF Melo C Noah Bench: KP, Langston, KOQ, Clyde Frazier
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1/26/2018  10:03 AM
Current thinking:
* Perhaps Burke could/should be our PG of the near future. It was a freewheeling hot shooting night of a game in Denver, but he looked like a real NBA starting PG - not too many players have put up numbers like that in a game this season. He has played beyond the expectations of any reasonable fan in his short stints. He looks like a very good traditional PG, pushing the pace and keeping the defense on their heels. Who knows what happens vs proper half court defense, but still against many teams (especially for the first 3 quarters of games) he looks like he'd be very effective. He's smallish but... pair him with some big long wings and you diminish his shortcomings.

* I like the flashes of Frank's potential, but I've already left it open as to what position he'll play long term. I don't think it's fair to him to label him as a PG in the increasingly more positionless NBA game. At 6'5" and probably still growing, he's never going to be a traditional PG. Think Nate McMillan maybe - his play enabled Gary Payton to develop. Or Pippen/Grant Hill lite - a wing with plus playmaking skills. On the other end of the spectrum, he may not develop any further and end up as a defensive wing along the lines of Andre Roberson, Tony Allen, or even Iman Shumpert.

Ah GA Tech PG Iman Shumpert. We thought his floor would be Tony Allen, ceiling Michael Finley. Looking at his stats midway through his career, unless he really steps it up a notch in the next 3-5 prime years (post Lebron in Cleveland?) he may not match Allen's production. Ntilikina imho matches the defensive promise Shumpert showed early on, but has much better PG instincts and doesn't really make mistakes and he's 2 years younger at the same point in his career. Potential.

* Assuming they don't outright completely stunt each other, they're a good change of pace combo at PG, or even used in tandem. And as a score-first PG, Burke could use another playmaker alongside him to get him the ball in easier spots. Ntilikina really needs to hit his good looks as he develops. And even more importantly, he needs to get that normal couple of easy opportunistic layups to get his offense going. His FG% isn't going to improve if all he takes are jumpers (even if they're all good looks). He needs to get that almost guaranteed make near the basket on broken plays to nudge his FG% above 40%.

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Nalod
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1/26/2018  10:04 AM
BUrke had a good game. Give him the starter job so quick?
Let’s get him in the rotation more to start.
Jack is fading.
Beas and his 30lbs of weight at the 4 is impressive. His talent was never a question. His head is a different story.

Frank lost his shot. Lost his mojo. This happens to rookies and is not a rare thing. This is why you don’t crucify him. Should we be worried? Of course. “Faith” is an unsubstantiated belief. WE have not substantiated his NBA talent so some fans are quick to suggest based on their eye test.
This is what we have with frank. Kid hit a big fat wall.

Last nite Willy looked bad on defense. Just does not seem to know where to go. I want to believe.
We look Tankable last nite.

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BigDaddyG
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1/26/2018  4:30 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:Btw, True Burke is 25, but that does not change the fact he turned out to be a feasible option at the PG position and did not use up a lottery pick.

I could argue Burke used up two lottery picks. The pick Utah used to pick him and the pick they used to find his replacement the following year. He had a good game, but let's calm down before we call him a feasible option. Teams are jumping over themselves to find two-way talent and Frank has shown good potential in that regard. We'll never agree on this, but Frank was certainly not a reach with 8th pick. It's way too early in this draft to deduce anything. We need defense. You need to make stops in this league in order to win. You harp on the triangle last year, but the triangle wasn't the main culprit for our disappoint season last year. It was our inability to get stops. Frank, with his potential, has the ability to address that.

Always... always remember: Less is less. More is more. More is better and twice as much is good too. Not enough is bad, and too much is never enough except when it's just about right. - The Tick
HofstraBBall
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1/26/2018  7:05 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:Btw, True Burke is 25, but that does not change the fact he turned out to be a feasible option at the PG position and did not use up a lottery pick.

I could argue Burke used up two lottery picks. The pick Utah used to pick him and the pick they used to find his replacement the following year. He had a good game, but let's calm down before we call him a feasible option. Teams are jumping over themselves to find two-way talent and Frank has shown good potential in that regard. We'll never agree on this, but Frank was certainly not a reach with 8th pick. It's way too early in this draft to deduce anything. We need defense. You need to make stops in this league in order to win. You harp on the triangle last year, but the triangle wasn't the main culprit for our disappoint season last year. It was our inability to get stops. Frank, with his potential, has the ability to address that.

Think you know the point was that WE "did not use a lottery pick". We are not the Jazz. In his short stint here he has been a "feasible option" at PG. In fact, in a couple of games, he has been our best option, But agree, still way too early to judge what his impact will be.

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1/27/2018  9:03 AM

How do you not want to root for this guy?

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1/27/2018  9:48 AM
SRacide wrote:What annoys me to see Frank say in the interviews that make a beautiful half season ...
Does he really think he is? Is the Staff too kind to him?
Does he understand that Burke just took those minutes?
Are you talking about the interview after he was selected to play in the Rising Stars game? I thought he handled it well but I am not sure that he should have been selected. He maybe thinking he is killing it based on coaches feedback and being selected for that game. I know Dwayne Casey was upset that none of the Raptors made that game. They have some very good rookie/first year players.
You playTrey Burke... Wally Szcerbiak
I know Ntilikina is only 19 but...

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