TLover wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

TLover wrote:Frankie was NOT Scott Perry’s pick. What we do up till the trade deadline says a lot about what management’s evaluation is of him.
If they feel that he will develop into no more but a complementary player then hit when his value is at its highest (being that he’s a young prospect highly touted out of Europe). Internally we should know (through practices) if this kid has the instincts & athletic ability to be an all star. If Perry & crew truely feels Frankie can be special (besides the surgar coating given to the media) then yes keep him.

Frankie has great attitude & length but does he have the rest to be a star player, justifying being a high draft pick.

I was thinking about this with Perry. But the Knicks did send Mills to France to scout Frank, talk to his coaches etc. Mills has always said he would have taken Frank at 8. My hope is that Mills means what he said and isn't just making the best of the situation. I think if Frank truly was Mills's pick he won't be moved.

Is that how GM's and teams work? You sign someone or pick someone you are decidedly more likely to keep (regardless of anything else in a vacuum)? Or is it what the player is doing and what you see day to day and/or what you are getting in return that will determine if a player is moved or not?

Since the current GM did not pick the player then it must be the latter. Let’s remember, Mills is a business guy, not a basketball guy (despite playing in college).

I’d try do the pick over (assuming the current regime feels that way) by including Frankie in a deal with Cleveland in getting that Net’s pick.
They can justify giving up pick by getting a young defensive point guard,(which they need) with a low post player like Kantor, and maybe a Courtney Lee.

Would love to go into this next draft with 2 lottery picks.

I don't think franks value is as high as it was 2 months ago

Jmpasq wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

TLover wrote:Frankie was NOT Scott Perry’s pick. What we do up till the trade deadline says a lot about what management’s evaluation is of him.
If they feel that he will develop into no more but a complementary player then hit when his value is at its highest (being that he’s a young prospect highly touted out of Europe). Internally we should know (through practices) if this kid has the instincts & athletic ability to be an all star. If Perry & crew truely feels Frankie can be special (besides the surgar coating given to the media) then yes keep him.

Frankie has great attitude & length but does he have the rest to be a star player, justifying being a high draft pick.

I was thinking about this with Perry. But the Knicks did send Mills to France to scout Frank, talk to his coaches etc. Mills has always said he would have taken Frank at 8. My hope is that Mills means what he said and isn't just making the best of the situation. I think if Frank truly was Mills's pick he won't be moved.

Not for nothing but what do you expect him to say? I really wanted Mitchell like the rest of the scouts but we got vetoed and we blew a chance at an All Star and now we are stuck with this guy

CrushAlot wrote:

Jmpasq wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

TLover wrote:Frankie was NOT Scott Perry’s pick. What we do up till the trade deadline says a lot about what management’s evaluation is of him.
If they feel that he will develop into no more but a complementary player then hit when his value is at its highest (being that he’s a young prospect highly touted out of Europe). Internally we should know (through practices) if this kid has the instincts & athletic ability to be an all star. If Perry & crew truely feels Frankie can be special (besides the surgar coating given to the media) then yes keep him.

Frankie has great attitude & length but does he have the rest to be a star player, justifying being a high draft pick.

I was thinking about this with Perry. But the Knicks did send Mills to France to scout Frank, talk to his coaches etc. Mills has always said he would have taken Frank at 8. My hope is that Mills means what he said and isn't just making the best of the situation. I think if Frank truly was Mills's pick he won't be moved.

Not for nothing but what do you expect him to say? I really wanted Mitchell like the rest of the scouts but we got vetoed and we blew a chance at an All Star and now we are stuck with this guy

See the bold.

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Saw the first half which Frank played well. Then switch over for the 2nd half of the Pats-Jags game. I am guessing Frank sucked really bad in the 2nd half.

On the Knicks roster they have Burke, Beasley, Mcdermott, Kanter. All of them were lotto picks drafted for their offensive capabilities who have developed into nothing more than role players in the NBA. Who are all on the team which is struggling right now.

So lets not make it like offensive talent is a sure fire hit. Read Paul George scouting report and he was viewed as a 3 & D G/F who couldn't create his own shot lacking offensive creativity. Watch Donovan Mitchell's Draft express scouting report and he was said to be weak at finishing in the paint, settled on to many low efficient jump shots, not really a PG. He wasn't viewed as an offensive dynamo. There are also plenty of rookies who struggled only to go on to have very good careers. Plenty of rookies who had very good rookie seasons then fell off the map(Brandon Jennings also an offensive lotto pick who played for the Knicks. No longer in the NBA).

Its way to early to come to any real conclusions or to start pushing agendas. Frank was drafted to be a 2 way PG with elite size. The goal is to get him to that level over his rookie contract.

excellent post. Ive noticed the people who think frank is the bust are the ones who despise phil so that explains a lot. Im happy with frank. His defense and passing is really getting me excited. Obviously his offense is coming along slower but thats ok. He is still a young kid and with more experience he wont be as hesitant and the buckets will come. He has already shown he can hit big shots

True. I notice the guys that excuse every bad game Frank has and keep insisting he was a solid 8 pick are the ones that also thought the Phil and the Triangle had long term potential here.

i NEVER liked the triangle and i also felt phil had to go along with Melo. However i like Frank no matter who picked him. Im not saying he isnt raw he definetly is but i think he is gonna be a good two way player for us. His defense and passing is already been real good. Truthfully i dont think he is ever gonna be a bigtime scorer but that doesnt mean he wont contribute on offense. Kid is 19 it will take some time

Your missing the point. No one is saying the kid should be vanished or is not a decent player with some potential. The argument from me has always been that he was not and has not played like a true lottery pick. This is a fact thus far. IF he continues to play like this in years to come then he was a miss at 8. Fact.

So are Lonzo Ball and DeAaron Fox misses? That's not fact, it's conjecture. Lottery picks are selected based on potential. It's way too early to tell, especially for a 19-year-old.

Hofstra is missing the point. Totally. "Hasnt played like "a true lottery pick?"
How do you even quantify that?

How did Kris Dunn play last year? Do we need to produce a list of prospects that took a year (or god forbid 2) to develop to say this comment is silly?

Then you have Knicks 1248, who doesnt know anything about anything but knows enough to say we arent developing Frank or other player right. Cant say why, doesnt offer info, but just knows.

KP is picking up bad habits? Has KP been in this role long enough to have bad habits? This is just called working through mistakes. This is called learning to be a better player.

Seriously... when a team develops young talent, what do people think that consists of? If you want perfect ready-made players we can always go back to the Melo era find ready made guys so we can make the playoffs. We could easily pick up guys like Kemba or Bledsoe and make the playoffs some years. If you want something better you have to decide if you can stomach the growing pains. There will be losing. There will be inconsistent play.

If you lottery picks arent stars in year 1 rebuilding might not be for you.
If you expect players to adjust game after game and start getting it and playing winning ball after a couple months together than rebuilding may not be for you.

This is going to be painful for awhile. The good thing is we have seen the upside. We have seen Frank and KP dominate games on defense. We have seen KP with monster scoring nights. We have seen Willy have good moments. Sorry if thats not enough to buy some patience.

But its all good. Its Knick fans. Every bad game counts as a month. A couple bad games and the player is either no good or not "playing like a lottery pick." There seems to be very little acceptance around here that some kind of development and maturation process exists at all.

Wait, wasn't Dunn one of the guys you liked to use in discussions as first year flops a year ago. So now, not only is it bad to put down a first year player but your claiming him as an example in this discussion? Okay, fair enough Fish. How bout you give me that list of guys that have had a terrible first year and went on to be All Start level talent or contributed to play off teams. And I will give you a longer list of guys that were not very good their first year and were just as bad in following years and went on to leave the NBA. So saying one side is more valid than the other is silly.

And let me ask you this. Why is it that your dream, of what Frank may turn out to be, is more valid than reality, stats and how he has played thus far. Simple point, he has not played like anyone has hoped our 8 pick would play. You can lie and sugar coated to defend your point but it does not make it true. Why is it that no one can man up and say that? Its not saying that the kid should be vanished or may not turn it around. But Im tired of guys on here defending his sub par play.

Yea... lets look at Dunn. If you traded him for playing like 2nd round talent last year (which he did) you would be a terrible GM. So yea... and Dunn is like 3 years older than Frank.

Frank is a prospect. Look at his entire draft class. How many are playing well?

And let me ask you this. Why is it that your dream, of what Frank may turn out to be, is more valid than reality, stats and how he has played thus far.

Im not dreaming about anything. Reality and stats show he's one of the best defenders around. Pretty much every defensive metric shows that Frank is excellent there. OR you can ignore the stats and listen to guys like Carlise or Popovich who all praise Frank's potential based on what THEY have seen.

You calling those stats "my dream" is the lie and sugar coating here.

Why in your own dreams is Dennis Smith JR ever anything besides and undersized volume chucker and a losing player who's picked up in the NBA right where he left off? His stats show a PG who defends nobody, shoots at lousy %s and turnover machine.

Sorry.. who's dreaming?

Forget about the Knicks drafting him and your Phil hating triangle guard none sense. Every mock draft had Frank 8-13 range. Nobody had established Frank as better or worse than the other guard prospects in that area (Monk/Mitchell/DS/Frank).

So why do you think Frank was there?

Ill tell you. Frank was a lottery pick because he's an athletic 6'5 PG with a 7'0 wingspan. He's also skilled. He's also 19. Its that simple. Frank has physical tools that could make him an elite defensive player. Also we have SEEN that from him in his rookie yea, repeatedly.

But Im tired of guys on here defending his sub par play.

Why? Frank is a sub par player. Who is defending that? I hear calls for patience, not defense of his poor play. Its gotta get better. How does it get better? Keep running him out there and looking at the film. Its a growth process.

Want to know what Im tired of? Watching every successful franchise show patience and develop players while the Knick dont.

I think everything you just said is for your benefit and nothing to do with my point that Frank has not performed as anyone would want an 8th pick to perform. He has performed like we expected Dotson to. But I understand you need to keep saying it.

It really is funny that you keep using Dunn as an example as I remeber you using him to establish how insignificant summer league play when defending Frank and minimizing Smith. And when did I say trade Frank?

You can keep repeating things but it does not make them true. "Best defenders around"? He is ranked 131? Think you are counting on Nixluva stats a bit too much. Ball, Mitchell, 2md Rounder Dillon Brooks, Kuzma, Isaac, Anunoby, and even Derrick F,,,n Wright is ranked higher. But keep making him out to be Jayson Tatum at 3.
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1

Dennis Smith Jr. a volume chucker. Ah the favorite eraser phrase for you. Yeah maybe you should check your stats. Who has more dimes per game? Smith is shooting at 40% is a chucker and Frank at 30% just needs a little improvement. Fact is, Smith has done extemely well in creating for his team mates. But you would know that if you watched some games. And saying he is a loser because he is on Dallas is as smart as saying KP is a loser due to his record in the league.

Frank WAS a TRiangle pick. Period. How anyone can still defend Dolan for starphucking with a 70 year old arrogant dinosaur, is beyond me. As is defending building around a system that EVERYONE knew would not last. But you keep defending both till the end. Oh wait but Phil/Gaines gave us KP! Stop. Btw, saying that Frank was ranked 8 to 13 is not saying much. Frederick Weis was also ranked top 4 by some but good teams were smart enough to stay away from such a risky pick. And NO, i dont think Frank is the next Weis.

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Saw the first half which Frank played well. Then switch over for the 2nd half of the Pats-Jags game. I am guessing Frank sucked really bad in the 2nd half.

On the Knicks roster they have Burke, Beasley, Mcdermott, Kanter. All of them were lotto picks drafted for their offensive capabilities who have developed into nothing more than role players in the NBA. Who are all on the team which is struggling right now.

So lets not make it like offensive talent is a sure fire hit. Read Paul George scouting report and he was viewed as a 3 & D G/F who couldn't create his own shot lacking offensive creativity. Watch Donovan Mitchell's Draft express scouting report and he was said to be weak at finishing in the paint, settled on to many low efficient jump shots, not really a PG. He wasn't viewed as an offensive dynamo. There are also plenty of rookies who struggled only to go on to have very good careers. Plenty of rookies who had very good rookie seasons then fell off the map(Brandon Jennings also an offensive lotto pick who played for the Knicks. No longer in the NBA).

Its way to early to come to any real conclusions or to start pushing agendas. Frank was drafted to be a 2 way PG with elite size. The goal is to get him to that level over his rookie contract.

excellent post. Ive noticed the people who think frank is the bust are the ones who despise phil so that explains a lot. Im happy with frank. His defense and passing is really getting me excited. Obviously his offense is coming along slower but thats ok. He is still a young kid and with more experience he wont be as hesitant and the buckets will come. He has already shown he can hit big shots

True. I notice the guys that excuse every bad game Frank has and keep insisting he was a solid 8 pick are the ones that also thought the Phil and the Triangle had long term potential here.

i NEVER liked the triangle and i also felt phil had to go along with Melo. However i like Frank no matter who picked him. Im not saying he isnt raw he definetly is but i think he is gonna be a good two way player for us. His defense and passing is already been real good. Truthfully i dont think he is ever gonna be a bigtime scorer but that doesnt mean he wont contribute on offense. Kid is 19 it will take some time

Your missing the point. No one is saying the kid should be vanished or is not a decent player with some potential. The argument from me has always been that he was not and has not played like a true lottery pick. This is a fact thus far. IF he continues to play like this in years to come then he was a miss at 8. Fact.

So are Lonzo Ball and DeAaron Fox misses? That's not fact, it's conjecture. Lottery picks are selected based on potential. It's way too early to tell, especially for a 19-year-old.

Hofstra is missing the point. Totally. "Hasnt played like "a true lottery pick?"
How do you even quantify that?

How did Kris Dunn play last year? Do we need to produce a list of prospects that took a year (or god forbid 2) to develop to say this comment is silly?

Then you have Knicks 1248, who doesnt know anything about anything but knows enough to say we arent developing Frank or other player right. Cant say why, doesnt offer info, but just knows.

KP is picking up bad habits? Has KP been in this role long enough to have bad habits? This is just called working through mistakes. This is called learning to be a better player.

Seriously... when a team develops young talent, what do people think that consists of? If you want perfect ready-made players we can always go back to the Melo era find ready made guys so we can make the playoffs. We could easily pick up guys like Kemba or Bledsoe and make the playoffs some years. If you want something better you have to decide if you can stomach the growing pains. There will be losing. There will be inconsistent play.

If you lottery picks arent stars in year 1 rebuilding might not be for you.
If you expect players to adjust game after game and start getting it and playing winning ball after a couple months together than rebuilding may not be for you.

This is going to be painful for awhile. The good thing is we have seen the upside. We have seen Frank and KP dominate games on defense. We have seen KP with monster scoring nights. We have seen Willy have good moments. Sorry if thats not enough to buy some patience.

But its all good. Its Knick fans. Every bad game counts as a month. A couple bad games and the player is either no good or not "playing like a lottery pick." There seems to be very little acceptance around here that some kind of development and maturation process exists at all.

Wait, wasn't Dunn one of the guys you liked to use in discussions as first year flops a year ago. So now, not only is it bad to put down a first year player but your claiming him as an example in this discussion? Okay, fair enough Fish. How bout you give me that list of guys that have had a terrible first year and went on to be All Start level talent or contributed to play off teams. And I will give you a longer list of guys that were not very good their first year and were just as bad in following years and went on to leave the NBA. So saying one side is more valid than the other is silly.

And let me ask you this. Why is it that your dream, of what Frank may turn out to be, is more valid than reality, stats and how he has played thus far. Simple point, he has not played like anyone has hoped our 8 pick would play. You can lie and sugar coated to defend your point but it does not make it true. Why is it that no one can man up and say that? Its not saying that the kid should be vanished or may not turn it around. But Im tired of guys on here defending his sub par play.

Yea... lets look at Dunn. If you traded him for playing like 2nd round talent last year (which he did) you would be a terrible GM. So yea... and Dunn is like 3 years older than Frank.

Frank is a prospect. Look at his entire draft class. How many are playing well?

And let me ask you this. Why is it that your dream, of what Frank may turn out to be, is more valid than reality, stats and how he has played thus far.

Im not dreaming about anything. Reality and stats show he's one of the best defenders around. Pretty much every defensive metric shows that Frank is excellent there. OR you can ignore the stats and listen to guys like Carlise or Popovich who all praise Frank's potential based on what THEY have seen.

You calling those stats "my dream" is the lie and sugar coating here.

Why in your own dreams is Dennis Smith JR ever anything besides and undersized volume chucker and a losing player who's picked up in the NBA right where he left off? His stats show a PG who defends nobody, shoots at lousy %s and turnover machine.

Sorry.. who's dreaming?

Forget about the Knicks drafting him and your Phil hating triangle guard none sense. Every mock draft had Frank 8-13 range. Nobody had established Frank as better or worse than the other guard prospects in that area (Monk/Mitchell/DS/Frank).

So why do you think Frank was there?

Ill tell you. Frank was a lottery pick because he's an athletic 6'5 PG with a 7'0 wingspan. He's also skilled. He's also 19. Its that simple. Frank has physical tools that could make him an elite defensive player. Also we have SEEN that from him in his rookie yea, repeatedly.

But Im tired of guys on here defending his sub par play.

Why? Frank is a sub par player. Who is defending that? I hear calls for patience, not defense of his poor play. Its gotta get better. How does it get better? Keep running him out there and looking at the film. Its a growth process.

Want to know what Im tired of? Watching every successful franchise show patience and develop players while the Knick dont.

I think everything you just said is for your benefit and nothing to do with my point that Frank has not performed as anyone would want an 8th pick to perform. He has performed like we expected Dotson to. But I understand you need to keep saying it.

It really is funny that you keep using Dunn as an example as I remeber you using him to establish how insignificant summer league play when defending Frank and minimizing Smith. And when did I say trade Frank?

You can keep repeating things but it does not make them true. "Best defenders around"? He is ranked 131? Think you are counting on Nixluva stats a bit too much. Ball, Mitchell, 2md Rounder Dillon Brooks, Kuzma, Isaac, Anunoby, and even Derrick F,,,n Wright is ranked higher. But keep making him out to be Jayson Tatum at 3.
https://stats.nba.com/players/defense/?sort=DEF_WS&dir=-1

Dennis Smith Jr. a volume chucker. Ah the favorite eraser phrase for you. Yeah maybe you should check your stats. Who has more dimes per game? Smith is shooting at 40% is a chucker and Frank at 30% just needs a little improvement. Fact is, Smith has done extemely well in creating for his team mates. But you would know that if you watched some games. And saying he is a loser because he is on Dallas is as smart as saying KP is a loser due to his record in the league.

Frank WAS a TRiangle pick. Period. How anyone can still defend Dolan for starphucking with a 70 year old arrogant dinosaur, is beyond me. As is defending building around a system that EVERYONE knew would not last. But you keep defending both till the end. Oh wait but Phil/Gaines gave us KP! Stop. Btw, saying that Frank was ranked 8 to 13 is not saying much. Frederick Weis was also ranked top 4 by some but good teams were smart enough to stay away from such a risky pick. And NO, i dont think Frank is the next Weis.

If draft was a re-do Frank would STILL be in the lottery. He's not second round talent. He's lottery talent. Does that mean he's a sure thing? Of course not. He might be another Mudiay. But you also like to deny he's also showed quite a bit at the NBA level that backs up the reasons for drafting him.

Do you understand the concept of drafting for potential? Sure.. its always nice to take well developed sure things.

When in doubt you go on Phil rants because your running out of much else to say. Thats your fall back. Its a yawner. You spent some nice time looking up every old Knick draft pick. Im sorry... who is still in the Knicks org from any of those picks? What is the relevance? Ill make it easy for you.. there is none. But yea... Melo developed KP. Is that why he's holding the ball so long and such a bad passer?

Good stuff. Funny is how all this is getting you emotional and vested in not liking a player on the Knicks who is probably the future PG of the team. Must be a complicated dynamic.

knicks1248 wrote:

TLover wrote:

martin wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

TLover wrote:Frankie was NOT Scott Perry’s pick. What we do up till the trade deadline says a lot about what management’s evaluation is of him.
If they feel that he will develop into no more but a complementary player then hit when his value is at its highest (being that he’s a young prospect highly touted out of Europe). Internally we should know (through practices) if this kid has the instincts & athletic ability to be an all star. If Perry & crew truely feels Frankie can be special (besides the surgar coating given to the media) then yes keep him.

Frankie has great attitude & length but does he have the rest to be a star player, justifying being a high draft pick.

I was thinking about this with Perry. But the Knicks did send Mills to France to scout Frank, talk to his coaches etc. Mills has always said he would have taken Frank at 8. My hope is that Mills means what he said and isn't just making the best of the situation. I think if Frank truly was Mills's pick he won't be moved.

Is that how GM's and teams work? You sign someone or pick someone you are decidedly more likely to keep (regardless of anything else in a vacuum)? Or is it what the player is doing and what you see day to day and/or what you are getting in return that will determine if a player is moved or not?

Since the current GM did not pick the player then it must be the latter. Let’s remember, Mills is a business guy, not a basketball guy (despite playing in college).

I’d try do the pick over (assuming the current regime feels that way) by including Frankie in a deal with Cleveland in getting that Net’s pick.
They can justify giving up pick by getting a young defensive point guard,(which they need) with a low post player like Kantor, and maybe a Courtney Lee.

Would love to go into this next draft with 2 lottery picks.

I don't think franks value is as high as it was 2 months ago

This is symptomatic of your short term thinking.

If draft was a re-do Frank would STILL be in the lottery. He's not second round talent. He's lottery talent. Does that mean he's a sure thing? Of course not. He might be another Mudiay. But you also like to deny he's also showed quite a bit at the NBA level that backs up the reasons for drafting him. If it was a redraft we would take Mitchell..so? And Okafor was ranked 1 in another draft, so. It does not change I feel we picked the wrong guy.

Do you understand the concept of drafting for potential? Sure.. its always nice to take well developed sure things.

When in doubt you go on Phil rants because your running out of much else to say. Thats your fall back. Its a yawner. You spent some nice time looking up every old Knick draft pick. Im sorry... who is still in the Knicks org from any of those picks? What is the relevance? Ill make it easy for you.. there is none. But yea... Melo developed KP. Is that why he's holding the ball so long and such a bad passer? Not so much a rant just calling out guys like you that seem to refuse to attach anything negative to Phil or the Triangle. Fact is he was a Triangle pick. For a guy that defende the Triangle and Phil so much why cant you own it? Do you think would have brought back Timmy? If Mills was in charge before the draft do you guarantee Frank is taken? I dont. Melo developing KP was a sarcastic joke as guys that have very little sense ussually blame Melo for anything KP does poorly.

Good stuff. Funny is how all this is getting you emotional and vested in not liking a player on the Knicks who is probably the future PG of the team. Must be a complicated dynamic.
[/quote] bahahaha. Yeah I hate the kid. Did you being wrong about the Triangle, Phil and Noah make you root for them more?

fishmike wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:I think everything you just said is for your benefit and nothing to do with my point that Frank has not performed as anyone would want an 8th pick to perform.

wrong here too. Are all 8th picks supposed to perform the same? Is there some performance chart you have for 8th picks in their first 40 games? Maybe you can share?

You simply dont get it. Frank was drafted for talent and upside. If you draft a 19 year old at 8th you must be ready to be patient, possibly for a couple years. Regardless what are the goals for a 19 year old's rookie year? Tell me that...

Let me guess... "play like an 8th pick."

You dont like Frank. He's a triangle guard and Phil pick. Toxic elements for you. I get it. Hate on him all you want. He makes tons of mistakes. He's also shown enough of why he was drafted for many to be plenty excited about him as a prospect. Thats what you want at 19... Does he give you flashes? Funny his teammates have more confidence in him than he does... thats also part of the progression and development.

Wait, now that you cant prove he is playing well your going with "No one expects much from an 8" Wow. Yeah if you would have told that to every two bit Knick fan before the draft, they would have skinned you alive. Can you tell me what you expected from a lottery pick? Shooting 30%? Being scared to shoot? You can keep saying that I have very little proof but ALL you have is a big MAYBE. And funny you preach patience but call a kid a "Chucker" who is also in his first year, shooting 40%, second leading scorer on team, and has more dimes than Frank. But Ok. You keep it real. I included a video on what to expect from an 8th pick below.

"Hate on him'? By listing his stats and saying other guy, that were there at 8, have played better and shown more promise? Eventhough I wanted Smith or Mitchell, I dont hate the kid.

fishmike wrote:I wasnt wrong. Noah was signed to appease Melo. Same reason Rose was traded for. Remember the Phil/MElo conversation?

Phil: Are we moving fast enough for you?
Melo: ....

Next up, Knicks sign Noah, Lee and trade for Rose.

Sorry dude.. but its your boy Melo that hurt more than anything. Phil was terrible. He should have seen Melo's play was declining and he most certainly did NOT have "another level he can go to."

Phil was 100% wrong first and foremost on Melo trying to build around him a centerpiece when he's not that level of player and never was. So you are right about one thing. Phil was a disaster, starting with resigning a 3rd option scorer to a franchise deal with a no trade clause, then getting vets to build a team around him. Top to bottom terrible.

Phil had a decent eye for young talent. Not enough to offset the utter disaster that giving Melo that contract was. I also defended that deal saying Phil pretty much had to keep Melo and losing him was an impossible start to running the franchise. I was as dead wrong on that as someone could be.

But Phil and Melo are important to you, not to me. When your arguments lack substance you can always lie about how much I loved Phil, Noah and the triangle.

For anyone that believes Phil would let Melo tell him who to sign and that Melo picked Noah, I have a nice piece of proeprty for sale at 350 5th Avenue. Large bro!

So now you never supported Phil?

Funny how Phil was unable to build around Melo but Grunwald and Mills did a couple of years before. And who scrapped it after one losing season due to injuries? And by Vets do you mean broken down players clinging to the NBA and hoping to get a paycheck from the Knicks. Please name those vets and strong roster players put around Melo. Or should i post the list of elustrious team mates he had here, again?

Btw. Melo is ranked 38 on defense. Probably one of the best PF defenders in the league. He has also been extremely unselfish in his role. OKC has beat GS and Cavs in games where he was the catalyst. Probably sweep all the way through the finals. Melo is about to pass the great Jerry West for 24th in All time scoring. Three to the head Mike!

But you are right about one thing, Phil showed how bad he was by giving Melo a NTC. And thanks for pointing out yet another thing you were wrong about and Phil/Dolan did wrong.

Back to thread topic: Think Smith heard Mike said he also needed to win. Good win for them.