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Time To Fire Hornacek Is Coming
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martin
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1/15/2018  2:12 PM
CrushAlot wrote:
martin wrote:
CrushAlot wrote:
reub wrote:
arkrud wrote:Hornachek is development coach.
His task is to develop players and establish winning culture.
Team cannot win with players we currently have and it is no need for this.
We need cap space, picks, and prospects for chip to build up assets.
Horny is right where he should be.
Fans who think this team will have a winning record any time soon are kidding themselves.

So who exactly has Horny developed? KP is becoming bad Melo with blocks. Frank is refressing. Willy went from a decent young piece last year to a nothing. Baker has goin backwards. Dotson gets no play.
It seems that Horny has been developing our old guys like Lance, Jack and Beasley.
That's NOT what this franchise needs.

If you are developing a culture of defense, winning, continuity etc. you don't start by playing guys that don't earn minutes. If coaches are getting fired for not playing second round picks and undrafted players then there would be a lot of openings in the nba.
In regards to Porzingis, the situation with the team was so toxic last year that he stayed away all summer and did not work with anyone associated with the team. He also did not work with a coach from the team in Latvia because that guy was let go.

I guess that's one way to describe it. Another way would be that he knew he was going to play for the National team and wanted to do a full summer workout without going back and forth to NY too much and also wanted to be around family so he decided to work out in Latvia. Also, the one main trainer he worked with was from Europe, so that *could* have been a deciding factor.

I believe he did the same thing the previous year but the Knicks sent Longstaff to work with him.

Right, so it seems like more a personal thing for KP than a Knicks toxic environment thing and he needed to get out of town.

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BigRedDog
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1/15/2018  2:21 PM
KP needs to work on his inside game, moves around the basket, foot work. He can't do it himself. He needs someone to show/ teach him. BTW that person can't be his older brother. He needs this to take the next step in his develoment.
Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
HofstraBBall
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1/15/2018  2:33 PM
reub wrote:
arkrud wrote:Hornachek is development coach.
His task is to develop players and establish winning culture.
Team cannot win with players we currently have and it is no need for this.
We need cap space, picks, and prospects for chip to build up assets.
Horny is right where he should be.
Fans who think this team will have a winning record any time soon are kidding themselves.

So who exactly has Horny developed? KP is becoming bad-Melo with blocks. Frank is regressing. Willy went from a decent young piece last year to a nothing. Baker has gone backwards. Dotson gets no play.
It seems that Horny has been developing our old guys like Lance, Jack and Beasley.
That's NOT what this franchise needs.

This narrative is a bit immature. Since when is it bad when a third year 20 year old keeps raising his production, year over year, and takes on a bigger role? That is development. May not be what a kid dreaming about how everyone should instantly be LBJ but it's definately normal development. Also, last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with first or second year guys earning minutes and learning from the bench. This idea that everyone should be an All Star in their first year is just not realistic talk. Main problem with fans is they don't know what it takes to be a top player. And it's not one year and prayer.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
martin
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1/15/2018  2:38 PM
BigRedDog wrote:KP needs to work on his inside game, moves around the basket, foot work. He can't do it himself. He needs someone to show/ teach him. BTW that person can't be his older brother. He needs this to take the next step in his develoment.

Not for nothing but from last year to this one, I thought he has.

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HofstraBBall
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1/15/2018  2:40 PM
Vmart wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
Vmart wrote:Winning championships was put aside once Phil was let go. These two guys Mills and Perry are jokes. Jeff Hornaceck isn’t the answer his system sucks. This team struggles because they have no system. They don’t have any go to set or system that the players can execute on a regular basis. Phil tried to instill that when the going got tough they could rely on the old reliable system Ball. To carry them through.

Huh? Phil hired JH???

This whole thread is typical fanatic bull****. The team is fine and so is the coach. Last night's loss was due to a very good player having an unstoppable night. Any solution, you arm chair homers try to give, would not have made a damn of a difference. This team is a high level PG and wing away from being a solid playoff team. But even then, believe it or not, we won't go undefeated. #stopthepanic.

Phil hired JH to run and learn his system. Now that Phil is gone this guy has revert to the only thing he knows. He needs to get back to what Phil taught him. Here is another problem I have why does JH start the same unit that blew the lead in The 4th quarter in OT.

Qiestions....how many games did JH win trying to keep the Triangle Zen master happy last year?
How many games did he win without having to worry about that at the begining of the year? And please don't tell me that you don't know that we had a major piece go down with an injury when things started to go south?

How bout we stop with the scapegoat **** and focus on the truth. Although...if we did that, then the guys that like to make belief they kniw the game would have nothing to talk about.

But while we are at it. Where are all the guys that applauded Phil not going after some better coaches that he would not have been able to control? (THIBS)

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
reub
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1/15/2018  3:01 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
reub wrote:
arkrud wrote:Hornachek is development coach.
His task is to develop players and establish winning culture.
Team cannot win with players we currently have and it is no need for this.
We need cap space, picks, and prospects for chip to build up assets.
Horny is right where he should be.
Fans who think this team will have a winning record any time soon are kidding themselves.

So who exactly has Horny developed? KP is becoming bad-Melo with blocks. Frank is regressing. Willy went from a decent young piece last year to a nothing. Baker has gone backwards. Dotson gets no play.
It seems that Horny has been developing our old guys like Lance, Jack and Beasley.
That's NOT what this franchise needs.

This narrative is a bit immature. Since when is it bad when a third year 20 year old keeps raising his production, year over year, and takes on a bigger role? That is development. May not be what a kid dreaming about how everyone should instantly be LBJ but it's definately normal development. Also, last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with first or second year guys earning minutes and learning from the bench. This idea that everyone should be an All Star in their first year is just not realistic talk. Main problem with fans is they don't know what it takes to be a top player. And it's not one year and prayer.


Porzingis' WS48 is the same this year as it was last year. It was the same last year as it was the year before. But pointz!
HofstraBBall
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1/15/2018  3:09 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/15/2018  3:11 PM
reub wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
reub wrote:
arkrud wrote:Hornachek is development coach.
His task is to develop players and establish winning culture.
Team cannot win with players we currently have and it is no need for this.
We need cap space, picks, and prospects for chip to build up assets.
Horny is right where he should be.
Fans who think this team will have a winning record any time soon are kidding themselves.

So who exactly has Horny developed? KP is becoming bad-Melo with blocks. Frank is regressing. Willy went from a decent young piece last year to a nothing. Baker has gone backwards. Dotson gets no play.
It seems that Horny has been developing our old guys like Lance, Jack and Beasley.
That's NOT what this franchise needs.

This narrative is a bit immature. Since when is it bad when a third year 20 year old keeps raising his production, year over year, and takes on a bigger role? That is development. May not be what a kid dreaming about how everyone should instantly be LBJ but it's definately normal development. Also, last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with first or second year guys earning minutes and learning from the bench. This idea that everyone should be an All Star in their first year is just not realistic talk. Main problem with fans is they don't know what it takes to be a top player. And it's not one year and prayer.


Porzingis' WS48 is the same this year as it was last year. It was the same last year as it was the year before. But pointz!

Right. So you on one side hugging your WS stat and the rest of the world on the other side wanting KP on their squad and watching him become an All Star. Makes sense though. For YOU.

'Knicks focus should be on players that have grown up playing soccer or cricket' - Triplethreat 8/28/2020
BigRedDog
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1/15/2018  4:57 PM
martin wrote:
BigRedDog wrote:KP needs to work on his inside game, moves around the basket, foot work. He can't do it himself. He needs someone to show/ teach him. BTW that person can't be his older brother. He needs this to take the next step in his develoment.

Not for nothing but from last year to this one, I thought he has.

He definitely improved from last year to this, agreed. I think he needs to add the inside game, 5-8' from the basket. Back to the basket, smaller defender on him, he needs to work on that aspect. He has to stop settling for fade away shots. Needs to learn to attack the basket. Needs to work on his foot work, inside moves and hopefully develop a baby hook shot. I think that would bring him up to the next level.

Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
jskinny35
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1/15/2018  5:19 PM
HofstraBBall

This narrative is a bit immature. Since when is it bad when a third year 20 year old keeps raising his production, year over year, and takes on a bigger role? That is development. May not be what a kid dreaming about how everyone should instantly be LBJ but it's definately normal development. Also, last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with first or second year guys earning minutes and learning from the bench. This idea that everyone should be an All Star in their first year is just not realistic talk. Main problem with fans is they don't know what it takes to be a top player. And it's not one year and prayer.


Exactly! At times I also feel frustrated that KP has all these tools/advantages and should be able to exploit them all - especially at the NBA level it takes time to figure out all your strengths and how to hide your weaknesses. There are times that I don't agree with everything Hornacek does (eg rotations, time outs), but we're not a fully stocked team that is being poorly coached. We complain about every coach and forget about roster deficiencies, chemistry, player effort/accountability... when most of these things are in place, I'd likely focus more on criticizing the coach.

reub
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1/15/2018  6:07 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/15/2018  10:04 PM
HofstraBBall wrote:
reub wrote:
HofstraBBall wrote:
reub wrote:
arkrud wrote:Hornachek is development coach.
His task is to develop players and establish winning culture.
Team cannot win with players we currently have and it is no need for this.
We need cap space, picks, and prospects for chip to build up assets.
Horny is right where he should be.
Fans who think this team will have a winning record any time soon are kidding themselves.

So who exactly has Horny developed? KP is becoming bad-Melo with blocks. Frank is regressing. Willy went from a decent young piece last year to a nothing. Baker has gone backwards. Dotson gets no play.
It seems that Horny has been developing our old guys like Lance, Jack and Beasley.
That's NOT what this franchise needs.

This narrative is a bit immature. Since when is it bad when a third year 20 year old keeps raising his production, year over year, and takes on a bigger role? That is development. May not be what a kid dreaming about how everyone should instantly be LBJ but it's definately normal development. Also, last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with first or second year guys earning minutes and learning from the bench. This idea that everyone should be an All Star in their first year is just not realistic talk. Main problem with fans is they don't know what it takes to be a top player. And it's not one year and prayer.


Porzingis' WS48 is the same this year as it was last year. It was the same last year as it was the year before. But pointz!

Right. So you on one side hugging your WS stat and the rest of the world on the other side wanting KP on their squad and watching him become an All Star. Makes sense though. For YOU.

I want KP on my side too. But I want him to play smarter and more efficiently. They're not mutually exclusive positions to have.

fwk00
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1/15/2018  6:33 PM
Look. This isn't a deep playoff contender and won't be no matter who coaches the team.

KP is proving to be a unicorn in the imagination of NY Knick fans and MSG marketing only. This isn't on Hornacek. KP's tenure in NY is on the clock - he's made many bad decisions and, although his rhetoric is always in the right place, he's proving to be a fairly average NBA talent hence the record.

Fans who continue to criticize Frankie's development and potential are idiots, IMO. He has the tools, brains, and talent to be the true long term star of this team. His ups and downs are expected and predictable. NO coach is going to turn a 19 year old raw talent into a mature 24 year old veteran overnight.

Hornacek is also a work-in-progress. He's going to be a trusted and respected NBA coach for a long time. When he has a team that's gifted, he'll win it all. Will the Knicks eventually fire him and the next coach and the next coach - yeah. So what.

But if we're talking about the here and now. Hornacek is featuring players that the organization want on the floor to attempt securing a playoff spot with. My suspicion is that we're featuring players who are short-timers and available in trade. The arrival of Burke and departure of Sessions just made the Knicks that much younger - not necessarily that much more competitive.

The balance the Knicks are attempting to achieve is to ratchet up the talent without sacrificing the season. Obviously, financial considerations and player trajectories will dictate the mid-season trade considerations.

Had Beasley not stepped up his game, he would likely be someone on the trade bubble. Likewise Kanter and O'Quinn may be long-term keepers based on their play. Hernangomez has devolved into a KP sidekick more than an NBA player in his own right may be on the bubble. It may save his career.

I think Jack, CLee, and Thomas are all likely to be traded to contenders for either younger talent or a future pick long before management entertains firing Hornacek.

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1/15/2018  6:56 PM
Give Hornacek some credit. After Burke subbed in and played well, he could have relied on him more than Frank for the rest of the game. Didn't do that, gave Frank a chance to respond, spent a lot of time on the sidelines talking to him, and it paid off.
reub
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1/15/2018  10:07 PM
fwk00 wrote:Look. This isn't a deep playoff contender and won't be no matter who coaches the team.

KP is proving to be a unicorn in the imagination of NY Knick fans and MSG marketing only. This isn't on Hornacek. KP's tenure in NY is on the clock - he's made many bad decisions and, although his rhetoric is always in the right place, he's proving to be a fairly average NBA talent hence the record.

Fans who continue to criticize Frankie's development and potential are idiots, IMO. He has the tools, brains, and talent to be the true long term star of this team. His ups and downs are expected and predictable. NO coach is going to turn a 19 year old raw talent into a mature 24 year old veteran overnight.

Hornacek is also a work-in-progress. He's going to be a trusted and respected NBA coach for a long time. When he has a team that's gifted, he'll win it all. Will the Knicks eventually fire him and the next coach and the next coach - yeah. So what.

But if we're talking about the here and now. Hornacek is featuring players that the organization want on the floor to attempt securing a playoff spot with. My suspicion is that we're featuring players who are short-timers and available in trade. The arrival of Burke and departure of Sessions just made the Knicks that much younger - not necessarily that much more competitive.

The balance the Knicks are attempting to achieve is to ratchet up the talent without sacrificing the season. Obviously, financial considerations and player trajectories will dictate the mid-season trade considerations.

Had Beasley not stepped up his game, he would likely be someone on the trade bubble. Likewise Kanter and O'Quinn may be long-term keepers based on their play. Hernangomez has devolved into a KP sidekick more than an NBA player in his own right may be on the bubble. It may save his career.

I think Jack, CLee, and Thomas are all likely to be traded to contenders for either younger talent or a future pick long before management entertains firing Hornacek.

If Willy is the one traded I'd like to get a young player for him at a position of need, SF. Kidd-Gilchrist or Harkless come to mind.
But I'd rather trade Kanter if we can.

martin
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1/15/2018  10:15 PM
reub wrote:
fwk00 wrote:Look. This isn't a deep playoff contender and won't be no matter who coaches the team.

KP is proving to be a unicorn in the imagination of NY Knick fans and MSG marketing only. This isn't on Hornacek. KP's tenure in NY is on the clock - he's made many bad decisions and, although his rhetoric is always in the right place, he's proving to be a fairly average NBA talent hence the record.

Fans who continue to criticize Frankie's development and potential are idiots, IMO. He has the tools, brains, and talent to be the true long term star of this team. His ups and downs are expected and predictable. NO coach is going to turn a 19 year old raw talent into a mature 24 year old veteran overnight.

Hornacek is also a work-in-progress. He's going to be a trusted and respected NBA coach for a long time. When he has a team that's gifted, he'll win it all. Will the Knicks eventually fire him and the next coach and the next coach - yeah. So what.

But if we're talking about the here and now. Hornacek is featuring players that the organization want on the floor to attempt securing a playoff spot with. My suspicion is that we're featuring players who are short-timers and available in trade. The arrival of Burke and departure of Sessions just made the Knicks that much younger - not necessarily that much more competitive.

The balance the Knicks are attempting to achieve is to ratchet up the talent without sacrificing the season. Obviously, financial considerations and player trajectories will dictate the mid-season trade considerations.

Had Beasley not stepped up his game, he would likely be someone on the trade bubble. Likewise Kanter and O'Quinn may be long-term keepers based on their play. Hernangomez has devolved into a KP sidekick more than an NBA player in his own right may be on the bubble. It may save his career.

I think Jack, CLee, and Thomas are all likely to be traded to contenders for either younger talent or a future pick long before management entertains firing Hornacek.

If Willy is the one traded I'd like to get a young player for him at a position of need, SF. Kidd-Gilchrist or Harkless come to mind.
But I'd rather trade Kanter if we can.

Does this qualify as throwing something against a wall to see what sticks?

What has either MKG or Harkless done to convince you that the remaining years and $ on their contracts is worth trading for? And what do they get you besides salary cap dead weight?

Do either of them do much more than LT does that you would trade Willy and something else for either of those guys?

Does reality set in at some point?

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fishmike
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1/16/2018  9:44 AM
HofstraBBall wrote:
reub wrote:
arkrud wrote:Hornachek is development coach.
His task is to develop players and establish winning culture.
Team cannot win with players we currently have and it is no need for this.
We need cap space, picks, and prospects for chip to build up assets.
Horny is right where he should be.
Fans who think this team will have a winning record any time soon are kidding themselves.

So who exactly has Horny developed? KP is becoming bad-Melo with blocks. Frank is regressing. Willy went from a decent young piece last year to a nothing. Baker has gone backwards. Dotson gets no play.
It seems that Horny has been developing our old guys like Lance, Jack and Beasley.
That's NOT what this franchise needs.

This narrative is a bit immature. Since when is it bad when a third year 20 year old keeps raising his production, year over year, and takes on a bigger role? That is development. May not be what a kid dreaming about how everyone should instantly be LBJ but it's definately normal development. Also, last time I checked, there was nothing wrong with first or second year guys earning minutes and learning from the bench. This idea that everyone should be an All Star in their first year is just not realistic talk. Main problem with fans is they don't know what it takes to be a top player. And it's not one year and prayer.

thank you. +1. WAAAAAAAAAY premature.

What hofstra said and what Crush said:

If you are developing a culture of defense, winning, continuity etc. you don't start by playing guys that don't earn minutes. If coaches are getting fired for not playing second round picks and undrafted players then there would be a lot of openings in the nba.

I mean Jeff has been here a season and a half and guys are askinhg "who's Jeff developed?"

Really?

There is a commitment to play and develop the two lottery picks in Frank/KP.
After that is earn your minutes and that starts with defense. We have seen guys benched early, only to come back and play better (really everyone but KP/THjr)
All our defensive metrics are improved and Knicks are much improved starting with opponents PPG/100 (Knicks are 16th) and opponents FG% (Knicks are 4th).
Knicks are big and playing a style that compliments their roster. Knicks are 6th in offensive rebs and 7th in rebounding over all.
KNicks are the 5th best team in the league in opposing FG% from 0-3 feet. We protect the rim.

Fire Jeff? No thanks. He's doing great. People have cried about having a coach here that holds players accountable on defense, both sides of the ball really... and its finally happening.

When Jeff is outcoached in the conference finals lets talk then about replacing him. Jeff looks great this year. This was predicted by most to be a 30ish win team, they are playing better than that and people want coach fired for not playing 2nd rounders and piddly ****

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
fishmike
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1/16/2018  10:36 AM
fwk00 wrote:Look. This isn't a deep playoff contender and won't be no matter who coaches the team.

KP is proving to be a unicorn in the imagination of NY Knick fans and MSG marketing only. This isn't on Hornacek. KP's tenure in NY is on the clock - he's made many bad decisions and, although his rhetoric is always in the right place, he's proving to be a fairly average NBA talent hence the record.

Fans who continue to criticize Frankie's development and potential are idiots, IMO. He has the tools, brains, and talent to be the true long term star of this team. His ups and downs are expected and predictable. NO coach is going to turn a 19 year old raw talent into a mature 24 year old veteran overnight.

Hornacek is also a work-in-progress. He's going to be a trusted and respected NBA coach for a long time. When he has a team that's gifted, he'll win it all. Will the Knicks eventually fire him and the next coach and the next coach - yeah. So what.

But if we're talking about the here and now. Hornacek is featuring players that the organization want on the floor to attempt securing a playoff spot with. My suspicion is that we're featuring players who are short-timers and available in trade. The arrival of Burke and departure of Sessions just made the Knicks that much younger - not necessarily that much more competitive.

The balance the Knicks are attempting to achieve is to ratchet up the talent without sacrificing the season. Obviously, financial considerations and player trajectories will dictate the mid-season trade considerations.

Had Beasley not stepped up his game, he would likely be someone on the trade bubble. Likewise Kanter and O'Quinn may be long-term keepers based on their play. Hernangomez has devolved into a KP sidekick more than an NBA player in his own right may be on the bubble. It may save his career.

I think Jack, CLee, and Thomas are all likely to be traded to contenders for either younger talent or a future pick long before management entertains firing Hornacek.

Dont get this post at all. KP is nothing close to "average NBA talent." How many average NBA talented players make the all star game in year 3? Nothing average about KP. But what makes your comment even stranger is after killing KP you blast anyone who isnt patient with Frank.

Average NBA talent. Is Anthony Davis average NBA talent? Thus the record? How was Steph Curry's first couple years? KP is average NBA talent. Sigh.

"winning is more fun... then fun is fun" -Thibs
Nalod
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1/16/2018  10:42 AM
Didn't jeff "develop" willy last year?
Did Jeff "Un-develop" him this year?
Baker is in the rotation. He has had a rough season. He developed him last year. Do we give up on him after half a season?
KOQ having a great season! Can you develop a guy that gets better and give coach credit? Even Rambis?
Frank.
Dotson. We are giving these guys chances we have never seen knicks give.
Burke, yes, he got some run yesterday.
Winning cures everything. For team to grow and build a culture hiring and firing guys is not the way to go about it. There are guys that get lots of time: Brett Brown, Atkinson in Brooklyn and Brad Stevens in Boston. Not that this is Jeff's first job but he has a strong background and resume and if he learned from the PHX job then even better. We often assume a coach cannot change and he carries his resume like a player does.
What is not known is with Jeff being a Phil hire is Perry fully on board with him being his guy. WE all know Blatt is out there somewhere and the Princeton connection runs deep.
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1/18/2018  12:12 AM
JH probably won't be fired this season, but he starting to FCK up, but idk,management can be telling him who to play certain guys certain minutes. The Thj sht makes little to no sense when you know your starters (with lance) have struggled.

Is there some rule that says "to reduce a players minutes he has to come off the bench". Two article today (in a local and national Paper indicated how our bench has been producing and out scoring opponents...like what does take to make the adjustment..

ES
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1/18/2018  6:13 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/18/2018  6:16 AM
KP became an all star but would have been under any coach
I give Jeff zero credit in KPs development

Jeff has helped players like Frank and Beasley. That you can see is Jeff helping them and finding good roles for them.

I think Jeff has done a so so job. He's bummed me out with his lack of offense firepower. I thought he would be a good combination of DAntoni and old school. Instead he has been more old school. Many blamed Phil but since Phil left we have become even more post up Centric and shoot even less three pointers.

Can you imagine KPs stats in Houston or Golden State as a number 1 option up front? They would encourage him to shoot 8-10 three pointers and roll more to the basket. He would be creating far less one on one.

We put up 99 points on a bad Grizzly team. Jeff keeps going to Kanter and Porzingis. He keeps talking about size and being able to play different. This was not the Jeff Horny from Phoenix. This is a guy who has let first Phil and now Mills/Perry run his coaching schemes. A coach with balls doesnt care that we traded Melo for Kanter and brings Kanter off the bench. Plays KP at 5 and 4. Plays up tempo and in a manner the team can score more points.

I won't shed a tear if Horny is removed at seasons end but I would say that if we give him a more quicker athletic personnel it would greatly improve his coaching ability. We need to get more athletic, more active on offense and more confident at shooting from outside. I trust Frank will be able to start next year.

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1/18/2018  7:14 AM
Does anybody really believe changing the coach would make that much of a difference? The Knicks don't have enough talent yet. Get a SF get a another Guard that can penetrate and score and if we still win 35 games than we can fire Hornaceck. I think we should give him 1 more year.
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