[ IMAGES: Images ON turn off | ACCOUNT: User Status is LOCKED why? ]

We need to toughen up
Author Thread
MG22
Posts: 20027
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/2/2017
Member: #6491

1/7/2018  6:47 PM
I have a few mixed feelings about this season.

1) Yes it's great that we are still in the running for the playoffs - but that means that we wont get a great lottery chance.

2) I love to see KP playing a lot as he is fun and at the same time a great player - but I hate that we might be playing him so much, that he might not develop into the superstar that he has potential to be.

3) I love that we have a great offence - but I would so much love the defence to be better

I'm finding it hard to say, but I think we should make a trade, toughen up and really go for the playoffs, because I do not believe in a rebuild with KP on the team, so lets try to create the best possible team for the rest of the season and then start the rebuild for next season at the same time.

I think we should try this trade: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y8tx43n4

Why Boston would do it:
They need another superstar, and even though they are having a great season they know that they have absolutely no chance of winning a series against Cleveland and even less against Golden State. But they might have a chance next season when Hayward is back, and if they have a chance of getting another superstar which KP might be already next year.

Why Knicks would do it:
Getting into the playoffs would be great and I think this trade will make us get into the playoffs if we do it now.
Horford and Morris are great veterans that will help the youngsters develop. Horford is extremely undervalued in the league and he gives so much to his teammates, Morris will help to toughen up the team. Both players will simply help to change the teams culture into a better defensive team.
Getting Rozier and Smart would also help us a lot both now and in the future if we can hold onto them. Smart will help our defence a lot and Rozier will drive the offence on the second unit - the way he is playing at the moment maybe even the first unit.
At the same time we would get rid of Noahs contract and I don't believe that Lee is a player for the future on a rebuilding team. I like him, but as we must admit he is not going to be a starter in 2 or 3 years on a playoff-team.

AUTOADVERT
martin
Posts: 47322
Alba Posts: 106
Joined: 7/24/2001
Member: #2
USA
1/7/2018  7:01 PM
Ugh man. Hey, let's give the future away so we can make the playoffs yall
Official sponsor of the PURE KNICKS LOVE Program
EnySpree
Posts: 44729
Alba Posts: 138
Joined: 4/18/2003
Member: #397

1/7/2018  7:25 PM
#1 playoffs should be everyone's priority. Even a slim chance is better than no chance. We make the playoffs and we become a better free agent destination. High draft picks mean we could draft another Karl Anthony towns or anthony bennett....

#2 .... so playing Willy more will develop him better and playing kp less well help him become a superstar? Cool... superstars play alot of minutes. Kp is only averaging 32 minutes a game.... cry me a river.

#3 We can't score... at times we look good... but in close games we can't score at all. Our defense actually has been pretty good.

You know why I'm here....
BigRedDog
Posts: 21858
Alba Posts: 2
Joined: 1/23/2004
Member: #569
1/7/2018  8:28 PM
This could be top 3 of the worst trades of all time. Don't quit your day job.
Briggs-- Frank is 2 yrs away from being 2 years away
Welpee
Posts: 21877
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

1/7/2018  9:56 PM    LAST EDITED: 1/7/2018  9:58 PM
BigRedDog wrote:This could be top 3 of the worst trades of all time. Don't quit your day job.
If you know of two worse trade proposal keep them to yourself, I don't even want to see them. This trade proposal is just straight dumb.
KNICKSBIGCATS
Posts: 20766
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 12/15/2011
Member: #3745

1/7/2018  9:56 PM
We don't want your skinny and injury-proned 7'3" unicorn.
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships." -Michael Jordan
Welpee
Posts: 21877
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

1/7/2018  10:00 PM
KNICKSBIGCATS wrote:We don't want your skinny and injury-proned 7'3" unicorn.
And we don't want your two overrated point guards and your mediocre twin.
MG22
Posts: 20027
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/2/2017
Member: #6491

1/8/2018  3:46 AM
This is typical for fans. Every player on every other team is either fantastic or totally overrated. I think you should look at Boston play - both Rozier and Smart are really great players, who brings a certain mentality. I think that if they are giving heavy minutes against 1st units they will show that they are valuable building blocks and could become essential role players in a rebuild.

Horford is really a great player, and I think that if you talk to any Boston-fan they would say that he is absolutely essential to their succes.

I'm afraid that if you play Porzingis, or any other young player to much, he wont develop in the right way. We would focus on developing needs that we have now, and that might hurt him later on. Especially that means that we will have to much focus on playbook and when he plays to many minutes he will not have enough energy on the practice courts. It is a well known problem, and it is really hard to give youngsters the right amount of playing time and still make them develop in the right way. I think we are playing Porzingis to much, as it is the only way we have a chance of winning. I think we are ruining his chances of becoming a superstar and we are now making him even more prone to injuries.

I think we should cash in now on him, as he will bring more value to the contending teams, and we should do it by becoming a winning team with roleplayers that can either help the development of our youngsters or being quality players themselves.

By the way looking at our stats we are mediocre on both offence and defence - my bad.

fishmike
Posts: 48686
Alba Posts: 1
Joined: 7/19/2002
Member: #298
USA
1/8/2018  9:51 AM
MG22 wrote:This is typical for fans. Every player on every other team is either fantastic or totally overrated. I think you should look at Boston play - both Rozier and Smart are really great players, who brings a certain mentality. I think that if they are giving heavy minutes against 1st units they will show that they are valuable building blocks and could become essential role players in a rebuild.

Horford is really a great player, and I think that if you talk to any Boston-fan they would say that he is absolutely essential to their succes.

I'm afraid that if you play Porzingis, or any other young player to much, he wont develop in the right way. We would focus on developing needs that we have now, and that might hurt him later on. Especially that means that we will have to much focus on playbook and when he plays to many minutes he will not have enough energy on the practice courts. It is a well known problem, and it is really hard to give youngsters the right amount of playing time and still make them develop in the right way. I think we are playing Porzingis to much, as it is the only way we have a chance of winning. I think we are ruining his chances of becoming a superstar and we are now making him even more prone to injuries.

I think we should cash in now on him, as he will bring more value to the contending teams, and we should do it by becoming a winning team with roleplayers that can either help the development of our youngsters or being quality players themselves.

By the way looking at our stats we are mediocre on both offence and defence - my bad.

how much do you think KP should be playing? They hold him out every time he's nicked up.

The reason is its a dumb trade is you simply never give up a 22 year old player like KP for depth. You just dont. Knicks played the lottery and won. Your trade is like giving up that lottery ticket because your afraid you will manage the money poorly.

tj23
Posts: 21851
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 4/20/2010
Member: #3119

1/8/2018  10:07 AM
Horford is great. This trade is still the worst thing I’ve read in a while. Isiah is that you?
Welpee
Posts: 21877
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 1/22/2016
Member: #6239

1/8/2018  11:44 PM
MG22 wrote:This is typical for fans. Every player on every other team is either fantastic or totally overrated. I think you should look at Boston play - both Rozier and Smart are really great players, who brings a certain mentality. I think that if they are giving heavy minutes against 1st units they will show that they are valuable building blocks and could become essential role players in a rebuild.

Horford is really a great player, and I think that if you talk to any Boston-fan they would say that he is absolutely essential to their succes.

I'm afraid that if you play Porzingis, or any other young player to much, he wont develop in the right way. We would focus on developing needs that we have now, and that might hurt him later on. Especially that means that we will have to much focus on playbook and when he plays to many minutes he will not have enough energy on the practice courts. It is a well known problem, and it is really hard to give youngsters the right amount of playing time and still make them develop in the right way. I think we are playing Porzingis to much, as it is the only way we have a chance of winning. I think we are ruining his chances of becoming a superstar and we are now making him even more prone to injuries.

I think we should cash in now on him, as he will bring more value to the contending teams, and we should do it by becoming a winning team with roleplayers that can either help the development of our youngsters or being quality players themselves.

By the way looking at our stats we are mediocre on both offence and defence - my bad.

Says the fan who doesn't want a player every GM would give their left arm to get a hold of.

But since we are in agreement that you can keep Rozier, Smart, Horford and the twin and we can keep Porzingis, why are you even here? What are you even trying to debate? That we should be salivating over a bunch of second tier players and a soon to be past his prime Horford?

TripleThreat
Posts: 21763
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

1/9/2018  12:51 AM
MG22 wrote:Morris will help to toughen up the team.


Morris ( actually both of them) has bad blood with Hornacek. No way the Knicks trade for a guy who will immediately go to war with the coach.

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
Paris907
Posts: 21132
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 7/4/2015
Member: #6099
USA
1/9/2018  6:57 AM
Of all teams to trade with you pick Boston. I like the Backcourt a lot but Kyrie KP Tatum and Jaylen Brown will destroy us for ten years. They have Hayward coming back and a top 5 pick coming up. This trade assures them the conference finals for a long Long time.
jrodmc
Posts: 30776
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
1/9/2018  2:07 PM
Yes, every elite team in the league is always dying to take on an albatross contract like Noah's.
I'm amazed this trade didn't blow up ESPN entirely.

Why don't you try and add Frankie to the trade as well? Maybe Celts send us one of their second rounders for him. We might get a valuable complementary piece with that!

You guys spend a lot of time commenting on the internet?
MG22
Posts: 20027
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 5/2/2017
Member: #6491

1/9/2018  5:05 PM
@TripleThreat I wasn't aware of that, but if you want you can replace him with everyone else but Kyrie, Brown or Tatum.

@fishmike It is hard to say how much you should play a young player and it is different from player to player. The reason I'm afraid is that KP is already saying that he is tired and we are only halfway into the season. The problem is also that our only chance of winning at the moment is with him playing heavy minutes, so we really have a dilemma.

Giving up KP is really hard, but I must say that knowing when to cash in and when to keep your assets is the difference between the really great GM and the not so good GM. How do you think Boston felt, when they traded their star Rondo - but it was that trade that brought them Jae Crowder, who nobody believed would be as good as he ended up being. Yes Rondo was not an established star and Porzingis is a rough diamond, so I do see the difference, but it's still about selling on a high.

It's all about creating a great culture, and when you have got the culture, then it is easier for players to excel. It is no secret that I'm really fascinated by the rebuild Celtics are making. They haven't drafted a number one star, who has developed into a new Lebron or Curry, they have builded a really strong culture, decided that nobody is safe, never overpay, and if you can improve the team by making a deal you should always do it even though you are trading away the star of the team or the number one pick.

I don't think that basket is about one or 2 all stars anymore - I believe in the moneyball-thinking and creating the best possible team in that sense. That is simply the reason why I think we should think about what would be the next move creating a better team instead of creating a superstar that we think can lead the team into the future.

If a culture should be changed we need some players who can help that change. I believe that Al Horford might be the best rolemodel for any young player. He is hardworking, a great ballplayer and not the typical flashy guy. He is simply hardworking and always makes his teammades look better. Smart is also important. He is a hard defensive player with a great work ethic. Putting him in the first unit and he can guard and guards or SF in the league. He could really help creating a hard working mentality. Rozier would be a great player to run our 2nd unit. He is on a small rookie contract but is at moment developing into a great offensive player without being an Isaiah Thomas on the defensive end.

Trading with Boston is by the way no problem for me. We wont get close to Boston before they get into salary problems, when Kyrie, Brown, Tatum and Hayward all want max. deals. Before that they will simply be out of our league, but getting rid of Noahs and Lees(which is a bad contract when he starts to decline) contracts would definitely help us and when Horford ask for a way smaller contracts ones his contract expires it will also help a lot.

A last thing I must say is, that I can't see this Knicks team getting into the playoffs this season and being a contender in the east might not be relevant before KP's contract is already expired or he has decided to demand a trade, which might come sooner than we expect if we do not qualify for the playoffs even though he is giving it his all, and playing heavy minutes with the risk of stalling his development and making him prone to injuries!

Nalod
Posts: 55582
Alba Posts: 151
Joined: 12/24/2003
Member: #508
USA
1/9/2018  5:43 PM
Rondo had been on the block for some time but Ainge was greedy. That's not a bad thing BTW.
Then Rondo blew his acl. Nalod for years was not on the rondo bandwagon. But Mavs were looking at this at that moment in time:

The Mavericks get a pass-first point guard — a four-time all-star — to team with Nowitzki, Monta Ellis, Chandler Parsons and Tyson Chandler in what they hope will make them a contender again. Dallas is 19-8 this season but in third place in the Southwest Division and sixth in the Western Conference.

This was 4 years ago, these guys were 4 years younger!!!

The Celtics will send Rondo and forward Dwight Powell to Dallas for Jameer Nelson, Jae Crowder, Brandan Wright, two draft picks and a $12.9 million trade exception.

Rondo took a shyt in the middle of the playoffs and walked out. Bad. Danny was patient and got good value for the head case that is and was Rondo.

What became of the no. 1 pick Celts got? Guerschon Yabusele, a 7-foot power forward from France taken 16th in the 2016 draft. He is avg under two pts a game and split time with Gleague. He is still just 22 years old. Big thick kid.

Knicks1248: 1. Dolan should be more involved! 2. Why would any knick fan want pick 8, when that spot has a history of producing marginal NBA taken. (He prefers pick 9th instead)
arkrud
Posts: 30927
Alba Posts: 7
Joined: 8/31/2005
Member: #995
USA
1/9/2018  8:23 PM
MG22 wrote:@TripleThreat I wasn't aware of that, but if you want you can replace him with everyone else but Kyrie, Brown or Tatum.

@fishmike It is hard to say how much you should play a young player and it is different from player to player. The reason I'm afraid is that KP is already saying that he is tired and we are only halfway into the season. The problem is also that our only chance of winning at the moment is with him playing heavy minutes, so we really have a dilemma.

Giving up KP is really hard, but I must say that knowing when to cash in and when to keep your assets is the difference between the really great GM and the not so good GM. How do you think Boston felt, when they traded their star Rondo - but it was that trade that brought them Jae Crowder, who nobody believed would be as good as he ended up being. Yes Rondo was not an established star and Porzingis is a rough diamond, so I do see the difference, but it's still about selling on a high.

It's all about creating a great culture, and when you have got the culture, then it is easier for players to excel. It is no secret that I'm really fascinated by the rebuild Celtics are making. They haven't drafted a number one star, who has developed into a new Lebron or Curry, they have builded a really strong culture, decided that nobody is safe, never overpay, and if you can improve the team by making a deal you should always do it even though you are trading away the star of the team or the number one pick.

I don't think that basket is about one or 2 all stars anymore - I believe in the moneyball-thinking and creating the best possible team in that sense. That is simply the reason why I think we should think about what would be the next move creating a better team instead of creating a superstar that we think can lead the team into the future.

If a culture should be changed we need some players who can help that change. I believe that Al Horford might be the best rolemodel for any young player. He is hardworking, a great ballplayer and not the typical flashy guy. He is simply hardworking and always makes his teammades look better. Smart is also important. He is a hard defensive player with a great work ethic. Putting him in the first unit and he can guard and guards or SF in the league. He could really help creating a hard working mentality. Rozier would be a great player to run our 2nd unit. He is on a small rookie contract but is at moment developing into a great offensive player without being an Isaiah Thomas on the defensive end.

Trading with Boston is by the way no problem for me. We wont get close to Boston before they get into salary problems, when Kyrie, Brown, Tatum and Hayward all want max. deals. Before that they will simply be out of our league, but getting rid of Noahs and Lees(which is a bad contract when he starts to decline) contracts would definitely help us and when Horford ask for a way smaller contracts ones his contract expires it will also help a lot.

A last thing I must say is, that I can't see this Knicks team getting into the playoffs this season and being a contender in the east might not be relevant before KP's contract is already expired or he has decided to demand a trade, which might come sooner than we expect if we do not qualify for the playoffs even though he is giving it his all, and playing heavy minutes with the risk of stalling his development and making him prone to injuries!

I won a Ferrari in a lottery but was afraid that I will crash it...
So I sell it and get 4 Buick cars.
I am set for life and feel sooo happy...

He can teach them to meditate... but no one can control even his own mind...
TripleThreat
Posts: 21763
Alba Posts: 0
Joined: 2/24/2012
Member: #3997

1/9/2018  11:17 PM
MG22 wrote:I don't think that basket is about one or 2 all stars anymore - I believe in the moneyball-thinking and creating the best possible team in that sense. That is simply the reason why I think we should think about what would be the next move creating a better team instead of creating a superstar that we think can lead the team into the future.


Moneyball was about exploiting market inefficiencies in a closed system designed to punish cash poor teams.

Unfortunately a lot of people here try to use Moneyball as a example of why splitting an asset or pushing for volume is a good strategy. Except in no other major sport, can one player dramatically shift the fortunes of a team and game so much. Also the critical marketing aspect of the NBA revolves around individual players.

Bill Belichick drafted Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, before the "Move Tight End" was common, then locking them up to long term team friendly deals, that was an example of exploiting a market inefficiency within the system. Hernandez was split out as a wide receiver more than a Tight End, but was negotiated with and paid on a TE scale. Suddenly the Antonio Gates type player was the rage in the NFL and every team wanted a Red Zone power forward type who could out muscle and outleap and truck over defenders.

Dayton Moore, formerly a Braves executive, built the Royals around speed, defense and overloading his relief pitching corps to take his starters out of ballgames. His starters had to go five innings, and he'd run his bullpen, sometimes 6-8 deep, and his defense, esp his outfield, was producing at a historic level. This preceded teams overloading a bullpen this way for a FULL SEASON. Teams tried to do this in the playoffs, but not to this volume. Instead of overpaying guys like Steve Karsay, like the Yankees would do, or Rafael Soriano, Moore found gems like Ryan Madson for cheap. This is another example of setting the market before trends locked in.

Making a volume trade is not Moneyball. At all. It's just trading a dollar for 2 quarters and a dime.

For the sake of discussion, Boston would only move something like Horford, Smart and a protected 1st round pick for Zinger. Do I think that's a good deal? No. But that's what they would offer. They wouldn't take Noah nor Lee either. There would need to be a third team, likely a team like Chicago, to make it all work, since the Knicks have nothing that could match Horford's salary.

The other issue is if and it's a huge IF, the Knicks were to trade Zinger, they'd prefer to do it with a Western team.

The Celtics are not giving up four players and taking in Noah's contract just to get Zinger. Also the Knicks would want picks and they aren't getting multiple high lottery picks for Zinger in this kind of deal.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying there are too many complications. More to point, you'll need to bring in a third team ( which I don't know) and the Celts are not moving Morris to the Knicks and they are not taking in Thomas/Lee/Noah/Kanter/THJr in any form in any deal. If you can find a deal that covers all that in the trade machine, it would be interesting to see. I just don't think there is one though. The complication with Smart though is he can't shoot. You'd be negating the one Knick who can consistently create his own shot and overload the Knicks with no one who can create their own shot. Baker, Smart, FrankN would be a pretty interesting defense though.

The team you'd want to look at is Houston. If they could get Zinger, they'd trade James Harden. I know that would seem insane, but Morey will trade anyone and it's clear no one really wants to play with James Harden if they are an elite player and have a choice. How the salaries would match, I don't know. But no one would miss Harden too much on the Rockets. ( I wouldn't put him on being an @sshole on the Jabbar level, but he's really close)

Since you came on this board you have been way off in regards to trade value. - Briggs 7/28/2015
jrodmc
Posts: 30776
Alba Posts: 50
Joined: 11/24/2004
Member: #805
USA
1/11/2018  9:25 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
MG22 wrote:I don't think that basket is about one or 2 all stars anymore - I believe in the moneyball-thinking and creating the best possible team in that sense. That is simply the reason why I think we should think about what would be the next move creating a better team instead of creating a superstar that we think can lead the team into the future.


Moneyball was about exploiting market inefficiencies in a closed system designed to punish cash poor teams.

Unfortunately a lot of people here try to use Moneyball as a example of why splitting an asset or pushing for volume is a good strategy. Except in no other major sport, can one player dramatically shift the fortunes of a team and game so much. Also the critical marketing aspect of the NBA revolves around individual players.

Bill Belichick drafted Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Hernandez, before the "Move Tight End" was common, then locking them up to long term team friendly deals, that was an example of exploiting a market inefficiency within the system. Hernandez was split out as a wide receiver more than a Tight End, but was negotiated with and paid on a TE scale. Suddenly the Antonio Gates type player was the rage in the NFL and every team wanted a Red Zone power forward type who could out muscle and outleap and truck over defenders.

Dayton Moore, formerly a Braves executive, built the Royals around speed, defense and overloading his relief pitching corps to take his starters out of ballgames. His starters had to go five innings, and he'd run his bullpen, sometimes 6-8 deep, and his defense, esp his outfield, was producing at a historic level. This preceded teams overloading a bullpen this way for a FULL SEASON. Teams tried to do this in the playoffs, but not to this volume. Instead of overpaying guys like Steve Karsay, like the Yankees would do, or Rafael Soriano, Moore found gems like Ryan Madson for cheap. This is another example of setting the market before trends locked in.

Making a volume trade is not Moneyball. At all. It's just trading a dollar for 2 quarters and a dime.

For the sake of discussion, Boston would only move something like Horford, Smart and a protected 1st round pick for Zinger. Do I think that's a good deal? No. But that's what they would offer. They wouldn't take Noah nor Lee either. There would need to be a third team, likely a team like Chicago, to make it all work, since the Knicks have nothing that could match Horford's salary.

The other issue is if and it's a huge IF, the Knicks were to trade Zinger, they'd prefer to do it with a Western team.

The Celtics are not giving up four players and taking in Noah's contract just to get Zinger. Also the Knicks would want picks and they aren't getting multiple high lottery picks for Zinger in this kind of deal.

I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying there are too many complications. More to point, you'll need to bring in a third team ( which I don't know) and the Celts are not moving Morris to the Knicks and they are not taking in Thomas/Lee/Noah/Kanter/THJr in any form in any deal. If you can find a deal that covers all that in the trade machine, it would be interesting to see. I just don't think there is one though. The complication with Smart though is he can't shoot. You'd be negating the one Knick who can consistently create his own shot and overload the Knicks with no one who can create their own shot. Baker, Smart, FrankN would be a pretty interesting defense though.

The team you'd want to look at is Houston. If they could get Zinger, they'd trade James Harden. I know that would seem insane, but Morey will trade anyone and it's clear no one really wants to play with James Harden if they are an elite player and have a choice. How the salaries would match, I don't know. But no one would miss Harden too much on the Rockets. ( I wouldn't put him on being an @sshole on the Jabbar level, but he's really close)

So after all this naked options market trading analysis, you decide you want to trade our unicorn for an @sshole? Is that like trading a dollar for a bag of really good fishegg ****?

On the other hand, I would love to see what the NY media and DEEEEEEFENSE knick fans would do with someone like Harden. Listening to Clyde watch that night after night would probably force me to get TV reception again.

You guys spend a lot of time commenting on the internet?
GustavBahler
Posts: 34212
Alba Posts: 15
Joined: 7/12/2010
Member: #3186

1/11/2018  9:40 AM    LAST EDITED: 1/11/2018  9:41 AM
TripleThreat wrote:
MG22 wrote:Morris will help to toughen up the team.


Morris ( actually both of them) has bad blood with Hornacek. No way the Knicks trade for a guy who will immediately go to war with the coach.

Morris said after he was traded that they spoke, there was no hard feelings about Phoenix, and that Hornacek was caught up in a beef between players and mgmt.

We need to toughen up

©2001-2012 ultimateknicks.com All rights reserved. About Us.
This site is not affiliated with the NY Knicks or the National Basketball Association in any way.
You may visit the official NY Knicks web site by clicking here.

All times (GMT-05:00) Eastern Time.